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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Episcopal Church
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
It's possible, of course, but it's so contradictory to the concept of a God of love that it's completely improbable.
Only according to you and damn the scriptures.
If the path of love makes it necessary to ignore the scriptures, then so be it. And if I'm going to be damned for being too loving, then what kind of God are we dealing with?
Simple. We're dealing with a God who disagrees with your definition of love. It's a debate you're guaranteed to lose. Eventually.
[ 24. July 2013, 14:39: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We're dealing with a God who disagrees with your definition of love.
If oppressing and persecuting people is compatible with any definition of love, then it's a definition that is quite simply wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
If by 'oppression' you mean saying "Don't do x because it will do you harm", then I guess I'm a Big Bad Oppressor™ of my three children. I'm very proud to wear that badge because it means I love them to bits.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
If by 'oppression' you mean saying "Don't do x because it will do you harm"
Only when the "because it will do you harm" bit is utter, total bullshit invented to give the oppressor something to say other than "because I don't like it/you".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
If by 'oppression' you mean saying "Don't do x because it will do you harm"
Only when the "because it will do you harm" bit is utter, total bullshit invented to give the oppressor something to say other than "because I don't like it/you".
I guess God is a big bad oppressor then.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
...and Marvin knows better than Him, apparently. Good luck with your new job as God, Marvin; do hurry up and end world poverty and disease before 5.30pm, we're waiting...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
It's possible, of course, but it's so contradictory to the concept of a God of love that it's completely improbable.
Only according to you and damn the scriptures.
If the path of love makes it necessary to ignore the scriptures, then so be it. And if I'm going to be damned for being too loving, then what kind of God are we dealing with?
Simple. We're dealing with a God who disagrees with your definition of love. It's a debate you're guaranteed to lose. Eventually.
Or maybe not? Any of us, with our certitudes on this temporal plane, may be in for one or more surprises on the other side.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Reading this thread makes me glad to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Reading this thread makes me glad to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
I'm also glad you're a member of the Episcopal Church.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In that case: quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think he measn abortion.
Which isn't the same thing as killing babies.
Yes it is in my book. Your statement kind of neatly illustrates the problem I have with the sort of liberal higher criticism lauded by some on this thread: it has the effect ultimately of calling evil good and good evil, particularly with regard to DH topics such as this. ... oxymoronic ... Trojan Horse in the City of God ...
Baby. At twelve weeks? At nine? At six?
Prescinding entirely from the question of whether abortion is wrong or not, to make the equation that Abortion equals Killing Babies is to take the word baby, twist it and empty it of all recognizable meaning.
Do an images.google on the phrase "human embryo 8 weeks" and tell me that's a baby.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In that case: quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think he measn abortion.
Which isn't the same thing as killing babies.
Yes it is in my book. Your statement kind of neatly illustrates the problem I have with the sort of liberal higher criticism lauded by some on this thread: it has the effect ultimately of calling evil good and good evil, particularly with regard to DH topics such as this. ... oxymoronic ... Trojan Horse in the City of God ...
Baby. At twelve weeks? At nine? At six?
Prescinding entirely from the question of whether abortion is wrong or not, to make the equation that Abortion equals Killing Babies is to take the word baby, twist it and empty it of all recognizable meaning.
Do an images.google on the phrase "human embryo 8 weeks" and tell me that's a baby.
Funny that, but ask the same question to someone who's had a miscarriage and you'll inevitably get a different answer.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What I'd really like to know is what harm comes from being gay or from engaging in gay sex. I've heard all my life how bad those things are, but the only problems I've ever seen arise come from assholes whose bigotry prevents them from treating gay people as first-class citizens and children of God.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Funny that, but ask the same question to someone who's had a miscarriage and you'll inevitably get a different answer.
You never knew a woman who greeted a miscarriage with relief? I have.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Who said that gay people aren't God's children too? But with all such things, it's essentially a spiritual problem and the more one does such things the more spiritually harmful it becomes.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I am very fond of my children and actually enjoyed being pregnant with them, but even I didn't think of them as living things (and thus people) until they were able to move and act in utero. I remember the story of when my mother had some embryonic fluid taken as part of a very hard pregnancy with my twin brother and sister. My sister suddenly started moving when the needle entered the womb and then kept hitting or kicking the needle over and over and over. It was very intentional; she stopped when the needle was removed. That's a set of actions, but it's just not the kind of thing you see six weeks say into a pregnancy. The argument to see fetuses as people at certain stages would be ever so much stronger if people didn't have to stretch it to ridiculous degrees.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In that case: quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think he measn abortion.
Which isn't the same thing as killing babies.
Yes it is in my book.
Which book is that, then, because it's not the Bible. Also, you say that but do you actually mean it. The penalty from premeditated murder in most countries varies from 20+ years in prison to execution. I'll be charitable and assume that, like most Christians, you oppose capital punishment. Do you favour the same punishments for procuring and carrying out abortions as you do for murdering a 1 year old?
quote:
Your statement kind of neatly illustrates the problem I have with the sort of liberal higher criticism lauded by some on this thread: it has the effect ultimately of calling evil good and good evil, particularly with regard to DH topics such as this.
Anyone said that abortion is good? Where? Who?
You are a liar.
[ 24. July 2013, 18:46: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who said that gay people aren't God's children too? But with all such things, it's essentially a spiritual problem and the more one does such things the more spiritually harmful it becomes.
What exactly is the harm? What is this spiritual harm? Give a specific, concrete answer. Back it up with factual evidence.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who said that gay people aren't God's children too? But with all such things, it's essentially a spiritual problem and the more one does such things the more spiritually harmful it becomes.
What exactly is the harm? What is this spiritual harm? Give a specific, concrete answer. Back it up with factual evidence.
Harmful? As with all sin it draws us further away from the truth, which is God. The result is spiritual death. Of course, there is a way out but if you've convinced yourself that bad is good....
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
"Spiritual death"? Can you give some specific examples?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Do an images.google on the phrase "human embryo 8 weeks" and tell me that's a baby.
Funny that, but ask the same question to someone who's had a miscarriage and you'll inevitably get a different answer.
I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone other than me, but I really did not consider the whatever-it-was that I lost at 9 weeks to be a baby. It's the loss of potential, a potential baby, but to me it was definitely not a baby. I can't tell you why the distinction is important to me, but it is. And this was a much wanted, much longed for pregnancy too.
It probably wouldn't interest you to know that, since the miscarriage my views have become much more aligned with those described upthread as "Not being in favour of abortion, but..." (from rather more against it)
The miscarriage was, physically, and emotionally, one of the worst experiences of my life. I can give the gory details if wished. Given that I was 9 weeks pregnant, I presume this is a similar physical experience that women who have an early termination go through. All too often, women who choose to have an abortion are characterised is flighty, silly flibbertigibberts who only think of themselves. The notion that anyone would lightly put themself through something so hideous seems most unlikely to me. Anyway, as you were. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 24. July 2013, 20:53: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Harmful? As with all sin it draws us further away from the truth, which is God. The result is spiritual death. Of course, there is a way out but if you've convinced yourself that bad is good....
That's the logical fallacy of begging the question. Pretty much a Platonic example thereof, in fact.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
If by 'oppression' you mean saying "Don't do x because it will do you harm"
Only when the "because it will do you harm" bit is utter, total bullshit invented to give the oppressor something to say other than "because I don't like it/you".
I guess God is a big bad oppressor then.
If He lays down rules based only on what He likes or dislikes (as opposed to what's good or bad for us), then yes.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Reading this thread makes me glad to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
I'm also glad you're a member of the Episcopal Church.
Thank you, daronmedway.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
If by 'oppression' you mean saying "Don't do x because it will do you harm"
Only when the "because it will do you harm" bit is utter, total bullshit invented to give the oppressor something to say other than "because I don't like it/you".
I guess God is a big bad oppressor then.
If He lays down rules based only on what He likes or dislikes (as opposed to what's good or bad for us), then yes.
False dichotomy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Harmful? As with all sin it draws us further away from the truth, which is God. The result is spiritual death. Of course, there is a way out but if you've convinced yourself that bad is good....
That's the logical fallacy of begging the question. Pretty much a Platonic example thereof, in fact.
Sorry but you're going to have to explain that because it's far from evident.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Do you also need to have "factual evidence" and "specific examples" explained?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Do you also need to have "factual evidence" and "specific examples" explained?
Concerning spiritual death, you mean? Well, depends upon whether or not you've read the scriptures and believe what they say, doesn't it? If you don't then there is no "factual evidence" or "specific examples". If you do, however, then you will already no what I mean: the second death, in other words, eternal damnation. As I say, there is a way out: repentance.
[ 25. July 2013, 04:21: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The harm is that it's bad for you.
Wow. Suddenly I'm thoroughly convinced!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You know what's worse than ignoring the Scriptures? Being so thick headed when you read the Scriptures that you can't comprehend that other people might disagree with you not because they've ignored the Scriptures but because they've read them very, very carefully.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
You silly old div! If your interpretation goes against the continuous faith of the Church then it is wrong. End of.
[ 25. July 2013, 06:23: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You silly old div! If your interpretation goes against the continuous faith of the Church then it is wrong. End of.
The idea that the Church's 'faith', by which I assume you mean doctrine, is continuous on anything is a highly debatable point.
The rules on wearing hats in church certainly seemed to have changed. And then there was that awkward business about changing the interpretation of the passages about the earth going around the sun, or vice versa.
[ 25. July 2013, 06:46: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You silly old div! If your interpretation goes against the continuous faith of the Church then it is wrong. End of.
The traditions of the church are not more important that the promptings of the Holy Spirit. The bugaboo is discerning the difference between "the spirit of the age" and Her calling.
It's a problem that has been with the Church from the beginning. Peter and Paul both struggled with it, and we still do to this time. And I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon!
I would like to be more like Paul than Peter. Peter had to have 3 visions and one visitation of the Holy Spirit to get the point. Paul figured it out much quicker, but was condemned by the church authorities in Jerusalem.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The rules on wearing hats in church certainly seemed to have changed.
Ahem! In some places women still do cover their hair in church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Reading this thread makes me glad to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
It makes me glad NOT to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The rules on wearing hats in church certainly seemed to have changed.
Ahem! In some places women still do cover their hair in church.
Do those people also believe the Sun orbits the (motionless) Earth? I hope so, otherwise they're rejecting the Tradition of the Church and indeed rejecting God himself...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Reading this thread makes me glad to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
It makes me glad NOT to be a member of the Episcopal Church.
What a coincidence. It makes me glad you're not a member of the Episcopal Church, too.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The rules on wearing hats in church certainly seemed to have changed.
Ahem! In some places women still do cover their hair in church.
Do those people also believe the Sun orbits the (motionless) Earth? I hope so, otherwise they're rejecting the Tradition of the Church and indeed rejecting God himself...
You'd have to prove that.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Which I think begs the point of how Tradition which is solid and unchanging is the living, breathing and active Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls us to a new life in which we are changed into something new. Tradition is solid and unchanging.
Those two things are going to struggle to go together.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Which I think begs the point of how Tradition which is solid and unchanging is the living, breathing and active Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls us to a new life in which we are changed into something new. Tradition is solid and unchanging.
Those two things are going to struggle to go together.
Indeed. The fact is that Ad Orientem is in favour of traditionalism, rather than Tradition.
"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. Tradition lives in conversation with the past, while remembering where we are and when we are and that it is we who have to decide. Traditionalism supposes that nothing should ever be done for the first time, so all that is needed to solve any problem is to arrive at the supposedly unanimous testimony of this homogenized tradition." - Jaroslav Pelikan.
This is what Ad Orientem is advocating - that nothing should ever be done for the first time. It's worth noting that Pelikan was also, subsequently, a convert to Orthodoxy.
[ 25. July 2013, 07:46: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You'd have to prove that.
Prove what? You said there are indeed some churches where women cover their hair, in obedience (as you see it) to the Tradition of the Church. I'm wondering if they also follow the Tradition of the Church in asserting that the Sun orbits a motionless Earth. You're not disputing that the latter was indeed the official church position at one point, are you?
If instead you're saying the Church originally had it right (Earth orbits Sun) but then got it wrong in the 16th century when it persecuted Galileo, then what does that do to your claim that the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from all error? Evidently He didn't do so in the 16th century, did He?
EDIT - Arethosemyfeet, that's an awesome quotation from Pelikan. Perfect!
[ 25. July 2013, 07:48: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I'm saying that whether or not the sun revolves around the Earth was never a doctrine of the Church, that it has never belonged the faith delivered once to the saints. Now I know you'll bring up wetsern controversies but as an Eastern Christian, what has it to do with me?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Which I think begs the point of how Tradition which is solid and unchanging is the living, breathing and active Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls us to a new life in which we are changed into something new. Tradition is solid and unchanging.
Those two things are going to struggle to go together.
Indeed. The fact is that Ad Orientem is in favour of traditionalism, rather than Tradition.
"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. Tradition lives in conversation with the past, while remembering where we are and when we are and that it is we who have to decide. Traditionalism supposes that nothing should ever be done for the first time, so all that is needed to solve any problem is to arrive at the supposedly unanimous testimony of this homogenized tradition." - Jaroslav Pelikan.
This is what Ad Orientem is advocating - that nothing should ever be done for the first time. It's worth noting that Pelikan was also, subsequently, a convert to Orthodoxy.
What I'm saying is that what is held to be the faith now cannot contradict what is held to be the faith by our fathers. Innovation is most certainly the root of all heresy. The only thing that grows is our understanding, yet that still must be in continuity with what we have received, it cannot contradict it.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm saying that whether or not the sun revolves around the Earth was never a doctrine of the Church, that it has never belonged the faith delivered once to the saints. Now I know you'll bring up wetsern controversies but as an Eastern Christian, what has it to do with me?
So geocentrism was never officially approved as a Church doctrine before the Great Schism? I'd be surprised if that were the case, but you'll know better than me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If He lays down rules based only on what He likes or dislikes (as opposed to what's good or bad for us), then yes.
False dichotomy.
So you say. But given that you've proved yourself to be a bigoted shite in so many other ways I fail to see why I should believe you.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What I'm saying is that what is held to be the faith now cannot contradict what is held to be the faith by our fathers. Innovation is most certainly the root of all heresy. The only thing that grows is our understanding, yet that still must be in continuity with what we have received, it cannot contradict it.
Spoken like a true Pharisee.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What I'm saying is that what is held to be the faith now cannot contradict what is held to be the faith by our fathers. Innovation is most certainly the root of all heresy. The only thing that grows is our understanding, yet that still must be in continuity with what we have received, it cannot contradict it.
Spoken like a true Pharisee.
You're being a dick. If you want to believe something different then fine, but don't kid yourself that it's the same faith. If the faith you hold to is not the same as the ancient faith then it is neither apostolic nor catholic and it is not the faith delivered once to the saints.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You silly old div! If your interpretation goes against the continuous faith of the Church then it is wrong. End of.
The Church can be wrong. The Church has been wrong about many things. The Church is wrong about many things. The Church will be wrong about many things in the future. The Church is made up of fallible, corrupt, shitty members of the human species, and always has been, and always will be. The Church leadership is made up of those human beings who were so incredibly good at being corrupt bastards that they managed to wangle their way to the top, and always has been, and always will be. And that includes every pope, every patriarch, every writer of scripture and every single person who attended one of your precious Councils.
Frankly, I'm amazed that the Holy Spirit has managed to get any Truth through the tangle of self-serving corrupt bastard religious leaders (and their fanboys) that makes up Church history. That He has done so at all is testament to the power of God. That He continues to try to do so is testament to the tenacity and patience of God. And that fuckwits like you continue to shun Him in favour of idolising a bunch of self-serving corrupt bastard Church leaders from two millenia ago is testament to how utterly fucked up beyond belief the human species continues to be.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What I'm saying is that what is held to be the faith now cannot contradict what is held to be the faith by our fathers. Innovation is most certainly the root of all heresy. The only thing that grows is our understanding, yet that still must be in continuity with what we have received, it cannot contradict it.
Spoken like a true Pharisee.
You're being a dick. If you want to believe something different then fine, but don't kid yourself that it's the same faith. If the faith you hold to is not the same as the ancient faith then it is neither apostolic nor catholic and it is not the faith delivered once to the saints.
My faith doesn't revolve around being obnoxious to gay people and women, anymore than it revolves around exactly what you can or can't do on the Sabbath, what clothes you should wear, what food you should eat, how you should wash before eating it or whether you should have contact with a woman who is menstruating. My faith involves what Jesus taught and what is laid out in the creeds.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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