|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Episcopal Church
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Yes, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Fannie Lou Hamer, Jonathan Daniels, and so many others, truly representatives of a horrible generation.
MLK: Born 1929
Cesar Chavez: born 1927
Fannie Lou Hamer: born 1917
Jonathan Daniels: born 1939
How are any of these people representatives of the baby boomers? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Yes, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Fannie Lou Hamer, Jonathan Daniels, and so many others, truly representatives of a horrible generation.
The oldest baby boomers were born in 1946. Martin Luther King was born in 1929. Cesar Chavez was born in 1927. Fannie Lou Hamer was born in 1917. Jonathan Daniels was born in 1939.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
The ELCA somehow seems to be perceived as more generally orthodox than TEC, while at the same time being stylistically hippy-dippy and gay friendly. Moreover, they're moving up the candle many places, and now they are acquiring Anglican orders to boot. I'm both a Piskie and a Boomer btw. Bwahaha!
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh.
There isn't much else to say, but I'm not going to let that stop me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Like malik3000, I want to know which Lutherans you will grace with your presence -- the Missouri Synod, which practices closed communion and advocates creationism? The Wisconsin Synod, which teaches that gay sex is a sin and rejects most modern Biblical scholarship? Or the ELCA, which, as malik3000 points out, is in full communion with the Episcopal Church?
It's gotta be the ELCA, so ha ha! You still have TEC cooties!
Of course it's the ELCA. I'm not a creationist and I believe that women are capable of more than making babies.
The Episcopal thing is really just a disappointment. Up north it's so liberal and academic as to be almost frivolous, and down here where I moved is a reactionary charismatic diocese that seems to stick around just to be ornery. I don't like politics in the pulpit.
BTW, we don't really talk about you guys much. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
/fun fact, last month I got the pastor to replace the watered down dippy Lutheran liturgy for my wedding with the Book of Common Prayer rubric.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Looks like you're interfering with regular Lutheran practice already. Maybe the pastor is indulging you as a n00b, like we do on the Ship.
C'mon folks, when do you think Mockingale will announce he's joining The Plot?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like you're interfering with regular Lutheran practice already. Maybe the pastor is indulging you as a n00b, like we do on the Ship.
C'mon folks, when do you think Mockingale will announce he's joining The Plot?
Mockingale: Trolling Lutherans since 2012.
What's the Plot? Does it involve Jefferts-Schori? Then it can probably fuck off.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh.
There isn't much else to say, but I'm not going to let that stop me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Like malik3000, I want to know which Lutherans you will grace with your presence -- the Missouri Synod, which practices closed communion and advocates creationism? The Wisconsin Synod, which teaches that gay sex is a sin and rejects most modern Biblical scholarship? Or the ELCA, which, as malik3000 points out, is in full communion with the Episcopal Church?
It's gotta be the ELCA, so ha ha! You still have TEC cooties!
Of course it's the ELCA. I'm not a creationist and I believe that women are capable of more than making babies.
The Episcopal thing is really just a disappointment. Up north it's so liberal and academic as to be almost frivolous, and down here where I moved is a reactionary charismatic diocese that seems to stick around just to be ornery. I don't like politics in the pulpit.
BTW, we don't really talk about you guys much.
/fun fact, last month I got the pastor to replace the watered down dippy Lutheran liturgy for my wedding with the Book of Common Prayer rubric.
You've not updated your profile details, I see. Seems you were in Connecticut, and you're now somewhere down in de lan' ob cotton. And no longer trending Lutheran, but having swum the Elbe or whatever one swims to Lutherland.
Did you ever try any of the ELCA parishes up North? You might have found many of them rather reminiscent of the TEC experiences that you seem so to dislike.
It's not that I'm entirely lacking in sympathy for your attraction to Lutherdom. Back in the 1980s I fled the troubles of TEC and of the Diocese of Fort Worth for the predecessor bodies of the ELCA -- the ALC and LCA, and attended their respective parishes for a period of time in other locales in Texas, before eventually making my way back to TEC. Aside from that, I'm also strongly influenced by Lutheran sacramental theology. However, I found the devotional and liturgical ethos outside Anglicanism to be inconsistent with my own groovy-zone (sorry, being a bit facetious there, but I expect the reader will take my point).
++KJS will go soon enough. Actually, I like her in many ways. I expect, however, that she will be succeeded by a somewhat more traditionalist, liberal catholic figure who will prove less a lightening rod for controversy.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
Mockingale, The Plot is big O Orthodoxy. You've not been paying much attention to various nuances on the Ship, have you?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:It's not that I'm entirely lacking in sympathy for your attraction to Lutherdom. Back in the 1980s I fled the troubles of TEC and of the Diocese of Fort Worth for the predecessor bodies of the ELCA -- the ALC and LCA, and attended their respective parishes for a period of time in other locales in Texas, before eventually making my way back to TEC. Aside from that, I'm also strongly influenced by Lutheran sacramental theology. However, I found the devotional and liturgical ethos outside Anglicanism to be inconsistent with my own groovy-zone (sorry, being a bit facetious there, but I expect the reader will take my point).
++KJS will go soon enough. Actually, I like her in many ways. I expect, however, that she will be succeeded by a somewhat more traditionalist, liberal catholic figure who will prove less a lightening rod for controversy. [/QB]
I'd love to return to the Episcopal Church some day, but the diocese here seems like it is merely reacting in the opposite direction to the overall trends of the national church. The big one has a healing ministry for curing teh gays of gayness.
I don't expect everyone to be down with the same program on gay marriage services and gay bishops, but I can't go to a church that treats gays like they're full of demons. The other nearby parishes are conservative evangelical and culture-war political in their own ways.
I did go to the cathedral downtown for Good Friday because the Lutheran church I go to had some dippy draping a rainbow-over-the-cross cantata nonsense. A man has to have some standards.
Some day the church as a whole will moderate, the shitstirrers in the diocese will fuck off to the ACNA or some other splitters, and I'll wade back in. In the meantime, the Lutheran church has nice potlucks and liturgy I can generally tolerate.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Mockingale, The Plot is big O Orthodoxy. You've not been paying much attention to various nuances on the Ship, have you?
I've been off for a while so I'm out of the rhythm. Sorry for the n00b.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. it.
That itself is a very debatable point
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
LCA is good, too. Spent some time going to one.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. it.
That itself is a very debatable point
The Plot™ thickens.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
The Episcopal thing is really just a disappointment. Up north it's so liberal and academic as to be almost frivolous, and down here where I moved is a reactionary charismatic diocese that seems to stick around just to be ornery. I don't like politics in the pulpit.
What I surmise from my conversations from my TEC siblings, is that a lot depends on the seminary in which the clergy come from. In the Northeast, EDS has a reputation for pushing the envelope theologically and liturgically, if I can be so diplomatic (my more conservative TEC friends have other phrases for EDS). But you have General, Berkeley at Yale, and VTS, which from what my friends tell me, are very middle-the-road, though trending liberal on the social issues.
So, the Northeast IMHO, shouldn't be entirely loosey-goosey.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What I surmise from my conversations from my TEC siblings, is that a lot depends on the seminary in which the clergy come from. In the Northeast, EDS has a reputation for pushing the envelope theologically and liturgically, if I can be so diplomatic (my more conservative TEC friends have other phrases for EDS).
Some bishops, including the retiring bishop of Southwestern Virginia, will not allow their candidates for the priesthood to attend EDS.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LCA is good, too. Spent some time going to one.
The LCA merged with a couple of other Lutheran denominations to make up the ELCA, who are the moderate-liberal of the current big three. I suspect my church used to be LCA, and not ALC (splitters).
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
The ALC weren't splitters -- they were one of three groups that merged to make up the ELCA. Of those three, it was the AELC - the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Congregations (or may have been "...Churches") that represented the liberal/moderate split from the LC-MS when that body was taken over by arch-conservatives. The AELC was by far the smallest of the three merging bodies. The LCA was heavily Swedish in origin, whilst the ALC was considerably German or Norwegian in its roots, depending on locale. These groups were using the same liturgy and hymnal for years prior to the merger -- the Lutheran Book of Worship, which preceded the present day Evangelical Lutheran Worship. There wasn't any major difference in the orientation of the three predecessor churches AFAIK. The story of Lutheran polity in America has been one of gradual, continual mergers of previously ethnically based synods to form more comprehensive bodies, so both the LCA and the ALC themselves originated from the merger of previous Lutheran groupings. Historically, the LC-MS is likely the least ethnically diverse, having been very heavily German in its origins. The likely represented the largest grouping of Scandanavians, who had gradually merged from their earlier ethnic-national based synods. Thus, the present-day ELCA is far more diverse in its origins than the more homogenous LC-MS.
The stand-apart and rather reactionary attitudes of the LC-MS have their origins in pre-emigration 19th Century German history, in which the Reformed and the Lutherans were forced into a single state-sanctioned protestant church, notwithstanding their profound confessional differences (Eucharistic theology being one of these). Don't know much about the dreaded Wisconsin Synod, except that they equate Scouting with Freemasonry, so that involvement in Scouts is either prohibited or largely frowned upon.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
The generations that followed the boomers have have given us - the further obscene enrichment of the non-productive predatory super-rich,
- the corporatizing of nearly everything,
- the abandonment of a sense of humanity and morality in public life to be replaced by a dog-eat-dog market view of everything,
- the rise of the paranoid security state,
- the stripping away of hard-won rights won by the generation of the 60s.
- a US of A that has totally lost its way,
- and much more
That is so much better, isn't it, Bostonman?
Yes, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Fannie Lou Hamer, Jonathan Daniels, and so many others, truly representatives of a horrible generation. [/QB]
Total and utter crap Malik3000. As others have pointed out, none of the people you name are baby boomers.
Furthermore, the things you attribute to the generations after the baby boomers are almost exclusively the work of baby boomers put in power by other baby boomers.
The USA hasn't had a non-boomer president yet (Obama was born in 1961 so just sneaks into being a boomer) and the boomers still hold most sway in a democracy because of those eligible to vote they make up by far the greatest percentage.
The rise of the paranoid security state, well that started with a pre-boomer in the era of Mcarthyism and has been ably carried on by that boomer (born in 1946) George W Bush.
WHen The average age of Members of the House at the beginning of the 112th Congress was 56.7 years (born in 1955); and of Senators, 62.2 years (born in 1949) it's laughable that you're trying to blame the state of your nation on post-baby boom generations.
Source
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. it.
That itself is a very debatable point
Just out of idle curiousity, Seraphim, why did you feel the need to go out of your way to say that? I mean, it's just an Episcopalian on a thread about the Episcopal Church expressing faith that God is with the Episcopal Church, and you went out of your way to contribute nothing more than a pissy comment. What is this about?
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
Evensong it's the relentless irony that infects so many of your posts that sucks value from what you write. It's cheap and apathetic this irony. It's a defensive and embarrassed hopelessness wrapped up in a supposedly smart and clever guise. It is a sort of idle talk.
Try honest earnestness. You'll get much better spiritual and intellectual mileage.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I mean, it's just an Episcopalian on a thread about the Episcopal Church expressing faith that God is with the Episcopal Church, and you went out of your way to contribute nothing more than a pissy comment. What is this about?
Zach82, your earlier post said 'The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it.' Which is rather stronger (and rather more contentious) than 'God is with the Episcopal Church'.
IMO, and to repeat what I and others have said upthread, God has not promised to guide and save the Episcopal Church; he has promised to guide and save his worldwide, universal church. TEC may last in its current form until the end of the age, or it may dissolve in five years' time. Likewise for any denomination or church grouping.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
quote:
Counsel offered by by The Silent Acolyte:
Try honest earnestness. You'll get much better spiritual and intellectual mileage.
True, but not in Hell. Earnestness here will get you savaged, especially when covered by a thin skin.
Having said that, I don't know a more compact formula for, "Don't offer such weak-ass attempts at irony. They are neither clever nor funny, they do not add to the discussion, and they do you no credit."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
The generations that followed the boomers have have given us - the further obscene enrichment of the non-productive predatory super-rich,
- the corporatizing of nearly everything,
- the abandonment of a sense of humanity and morality in public life to be replaced by a dog-eat-dog market view of everything,
- the rise of the paranoid security state,
- the stripping away of hard-won rights won by the generation of the 60s.
- a US of A that has totally lost its way,
- and much more
That is so much better, isn't it, Bostonman?
Yes, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Fannie Lou Hamer, Jonathan Daniels, and so many others, truly representatives of a horrible generation.
You realize that most of the people in charge (CEOs, politicians etc) are still Boomers, right? Even the oldest Boomers only started retiring a few years ago. The younger generations haven't really had the chance to wreak whatever unholy havoc we're going to, yet- you can't blame us for the things you list above. (You can blame us for Twitter and really hideous piercings though, if you want.)
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What I surmise from my conversations from my TEC siblings, is that a lot depends on the seminary in which the clergy come from. In the Northeast, EDS has a reputation for pushing the envelope theologically and liturgically, if I can be so diplomatic (my more conservative TEC friends have other phrases for EDS).
Some bishops, including the retiring bishop of Southwestern Virginia, will not allow their candidates for the priesthood to attend EDS.
Moo
St. Jonathan Daniels the Martyr came from that school (or rather its predecessor). That, to me, says something really good about it. To me this is Christianity in action.
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What I surmise from my conversations from my TEC siblings, is that a lot depends on the seminary in which the clergy come from. In the Northeast, EDS has a reputation for pushing the envelope theologically and liturgically, if I can be so diplomatic (my more conservative TEC friends have other phrases for EDS).
Some bishops, including the retiring bishop of Southwestern Virginia, will not allow their candidates for the priesthood to attend EDS.
Moo
St. Jonathan Daniels the Martyr came from that school (or rather its predecessor). That, to me, says something really good about it. To me this is Christianity in action.
Its predecessor was ETS, The Episcopal Theological School. I agree that it was excellent, but when it changed its name it changed other things also.
ETA: Remember that Jonathan Daniels died almost fifty years ago. A lot can change in fifty years.
Moo
[ 13. July 2013, 20:28: Message edited by: Moo ]
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Total and utter crap Malik3000. As others have pointed out, none of the people you name are baby boomers.
Furthermore, the things you attribute to the generations after the baby boomers are almost exclusively the work of baby boomers put in power by other baby boomers.
The USA hasn't had a non-boomer president yet (Obama was born in 1961 so just sneaks into being a boomer) and the boomers still hold most sway in a democracy because of those eligible to vote they make up by far the greatest percentage.
The rise of the paranoid security state, well that started with a pre-boomer in the era of Mcarthyism and has been ably carried on by that boomer (born in 1946) George W Bush.
WHen The average age of Members of the House at the beginning of the 112th Congress was 56.7 years (born in 1955); and of Senators, 62.2 years (born in 1949) it's laughable that you're trying to blame the state of your nation on post-baby boom generations.
Source
First, my apologies for my incorrect date facts regarding the people who I named. That was sloppiness and carelessness on my part, and probably fatigue-based laziness.
I really meant to express that it was people like these that those -- whom Bostonman called the horrible Boomers -- would likely have emulated people such as these. People like that were my heroes in the 60s. But again, a very sloppy presentation on my part.
Second, even as I was writing my first post it indeed crossed my mind that of course the things I attribute to the following generations were in large part (but NOT almost exclusively) the work of elected leaders who were of the boomer generation. But while other boomers contributed to putting the aforementioned boomers into power, there were plenty of other folk from younger (and older) generations who also were also participating in doing this. Also I fully recognize that many of the boomer generation were in fact conservative, pro-Vietnam War, pro-big business, etc. (After all the John Birch Society flourished in the 60s). Indeed the Reagan Revolution could in a sense be called the successful revenge of the "conservative" boomers against the "love and peace" boomers. But I don't think these were the "horrible" boomers that BostonMan was referring to.
Factually sloppy it was, but not utter crap. What is actually totally and utterly the highest and smelliest pile of crap is the assertion that the pro-peace, pro-civil rights aspects of the 1960s were worse than the selfish, arrogant, corporatized, torturing, ethically-barren monstrosity into which the US seems inexorably to be transforming. And to me, any who profess themselves to be "christian" who aren't repelled by these tragic developments would do well to look within themselves and ask themselves exactly what it is they truly believe. It is an utterly and totally crappy situation that Christians would not be totally and utterly opposing these developments (And please note -- this is NOT a plug for any specific political solution.)
And getting back to the original topic of the thread, the Episcopal Church. Zach82 asserted that Christ will always in the long run, ensure that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It was pointed out that this might apply not to any one specific branch of the church. This is true, and who knows what will develop in the future, but I think the Episcopal Church is trying to follow Christ as well or more than many denominations.
And btw if one wants to cite declining numbers, following the way of Christ is not a popularity contest. When Arianism was flourishing, there were times when it looked like it had the upper hand over orthodoxy.
[ 13. July 2013, 20:36: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
|
Posted
Mockingdale,
Does your new church use wee cuppies? Their use is not at all uncommon in the ELCA. With all due respect, that would be enough to keep me from darkening the doors. I HATE wee cuppies!
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Factually sloppy it was, but not utter crap. What is actually totally and utterly the highest and smelliest pile of crap is the assertion that the pro-peace, pro-civil rights aspects of the 1960s were worse than the selfish, arrogant, corporatized, torturing, ethically-barren monstrosity into which the US seems inexorably to be transforming.
Malik, you're still talking crap and trying to twist your original argument. Nobody was saying anything about pro-peace etc of the 1960s being worse than the current selfish, market driven economy. I certainly wasn't.
Your point was that post-baby boom generations are responsible for the current state of the nation and that makes me fume. To generalise, baby-boomers are the most selfish, self-centred people who have the ability to manipulate society through weight of numbers. So when they're young society is all about freedom to indulge in drugs and sex, then it's about wealth accumulation and now they're old it's about healthcare and conservative social policies.
No generation is perfect and some social good came from the 60s, although I'd argue this was as much due to pre-boomers as boomers as in the 60s most boomers were actually still children.
The ethically-barren USA that has been brought about by policies and actions of the 1980s through 'til now is the creation of the baby-boomers.
I'm not convinced that those of us who come after the boomers will or can do any better but don't blame us for ruining the mythical utopia that was the 1960s. We haven't had a chance to wrest power away from the clutched fists and sharp elbows of the demographically disproportionate boomers yet.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
I don't think that any generation is all perfect or all bad either, but, all hyperbole aside, I do not think that the baby boomer generation deserves any greater level of guilt for the present state of affairs than the preceding or following generations.
[ 14. July 2013, 00:09: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
Evensong it's the relentless irony that infects so many of your posts that sucks value from what you write. It's cheap and apathetic this irony. It's a defensive and embarrassed hopelessness wrapped up in a supposedly smart and clever guise. It is a sort of idle talk.
Try honest earnestness. You'll get much better spiritual and intellectual mileage.
Mum? Is that you?
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
Getting back to the Episcopal Church, my curiosity has been aroused by references the the Episcopal Divinity School, of which, up to now, I frankly know very little. I have searched the Internet a bit to find out why some bishops won't allow candidates for priesthood to go there but I haven't found a full explanation anywhere.
I don't think EDS was on the approved list of +Neil Alexander, the recently-resigned bishop of Atlanta. I don't know the views of our new bishop +Robert Wright.
On their own website EDS seem to emphasize their social activism orientation but I can't find anything that tells me about their creedal orthodoxy. Doing some Yahoo searching (I don't want to bolster Google's near-monopoly) I found a couple of snippets mentioning +Spong but I can't tell whether he is considered to represent the state of EDS's orthodoxy (or, since it's Spong, heterodoxy).
Wikipedia says the bishops were critical that EDS jumped the gun on women's ordination before it had been approved by the church, but that was a few decades ago. Where can I find out more about the current state of the EDS re the episcopal Church at large?
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Mockingdale,
Does your new church use wee cuppies? Their use is not at all uncommon in the ELCA. With all due respect, that would be enough to keep me from darkening the doors. I HATE wee cuppies!
Some Lutheran churches do, and it annoys me. Mine lets you intinct.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Getting back to the Episcopal Church, my curiosity has been aroused by references the the Episcopal Divinity School, of which, up to now, I frankly know very little. I have searched the Internet a bit to find out why some bishops won't allow candidates for priesthood to go there but I haven't found a full explanation anywhere.
I don't think EDS was on the approved list of +Neil Alexander, the recently-resigned bishop of Atlanta. I don't know the views of our new bishop +Robert Wright.
On their own website EDS seem to emphasize their social activism orientation but I can't find anything that tells me about their creedal orthodoxy. Doing some Yahoo searching (I don't want to bolster Google's near-monopoly) I found a couple of snippets mentioning +Spong but I can't tell whether he is considered to represent the state of EDS's orthodoxy (or, since it's Spong, heterodoxy).
Wikipedia says the bishops were critical that EDS jumped the gun on women's ordination before it had been approved by the church, but that was a few decades ago. Where can I find out more about the current state of the EDS re the episcopal Church at large?
It's a pretty big indication that its president, the Very Rev. Dr. Katherine Ragsdale, makes occasional appearances on CNN to explain why abortion is a blessing from God.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Mockingdale,
Does your new church use wee cuppies? Their use is not at all uncommon in the ELCA. With all due respect, that would be enough to keep me from darkening the doors. I HATE wee cuppies!
Some Lutheran churches do, and it annoys me. Mine lets you intinct.
Intinction is evil. Repent and use the Chalice.
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I might be more sympathetic to Lutherans if I could ever figure out what the hell Luther meant when he encouraged people to sin boldly.
Sounds like something that might be up my alley.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
It took me two goes to work out exactly what Anglican_Brat meant. The Bride is the whole church, in it's glorious messy entirety. And the promises about the gates of hell not prevailing are for the whole church - Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics of all kinds etc. Not just for one bit of it. Your post read a bit like you thought that God and the Anglican's had a special relationship and the rest of us weren't included.
OTH, even when God does save the whole church, what it will look when He's done and whether you'll like it is another discussion entirely!
Tubbs
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
If you don't believe that Anglicanism is heir to the promises of Jesus, then I urge you to find a Church that is.
I find it curious that the only time episcopalians seem to believe in miraculous stuff, or supernatural intervention is when they talk about the future of their denomination.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I might be more sympathetic to Lutherans if I could ever figure out what the hell Luther meant when he encouraged people to sin boldly.
Sounds like something that might be up my alley.
I understand Luther to mean that everyone sins and one should not do anything to disguise it. Sins shouldn't be paraded proudly nor should they be hidden in the small print.
[ 14. July 2013, 15:05: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh.
There isn't much else to say, but I'm not going to let that stop me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Like malik3000, I want to know which Lutherans you will grace with your presence -- the Missouri Synod, which practices closed communion and advocates creationism? The Wisconsin Synod, which teaches that gay sex is a sin and rejects most modern Biblical scholarship? Or the ELCA, which, as malik3000 points out, is in full communion with the Episcopal Church?
It's gotta be the ELCA, so ha ha! You still have TEC cooties!
And if the big problem of TEC is the fact that it´s being led by bishops who do not even believe in God in a meaningful way, he´s not going to find more luck by joining the ELCA.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
I find it curious that the only time episcopalians seem to believe in miraculous stuff, or supernatural intervention is when they talk about the future of their denomination.
I find it curious that so many people go out of their way to bully what is, for all intents and purposes, and small, obscure sect.
[ 14. July 2013, 16:08: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
And if the big problem of TEC is the fact that it´s being led by bishops who do not even believe in God in a meaningful way, he´s not going to find more luck by joining the ELCA.
I suppose it's only a matter of time, but for now, TEC tends to have the bolder bishops. The ELCA is certainly decades behind on producing a Spong, and I can assure you that if it did, s/he would be removed from office fairly quickly. The simple difference: term limits.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
And if the big problem of TEC is the fact that it´s being led by bishops who do not even believe in God in a meaningful way, he´s not going to find more luck by joining the ELCA.
I suppose it's only a matter of time, but for now, TEC tends to have the bolder bishops. The ELCA is certainly decades behind on producing a Spong, and I can assure you that if it did, s/he would be removed from office fairly quickly. The simple difference: term limits.
Ugh, don't feed into his paranoia. These "bishops who do not even believe in God in a meaningful way" are a shrill fantasy from ACNA and its supporters.
Besides Spong, of course, who didn't even really push the envelope until he was retired. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 14. July 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I find it curious that the only time episcopalians seem to believe in miraculous stuff, or supernatural intervention is when they talk about the future of their denomination.
I find it curious that so many people go out of their way to bully what is, for all intents and purposes, and small, obscure sect.
I find it's usually people who used to be Episcopalians, at least until Episcopalians started associating with THOSE people, and now they're just bitter that they couldn't take the church building with them and they're busy practicing faux Anglicanism out of a strip mall.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Ugh, don't feed into his paranoia. These "bishops who do not even believe in God in a meaningful way" are a shrill fantasy from ACNA and its supporters.
Besides Spong, of course, who didn't even really push the envelope until he was retired.
I've never met such a bishop as described above, from either TEC or ELCA.
On a side note, this thread has been a peculiar one for me, in that I have considered making the opposite swim from Mockingale. When I walked into the sacristy today to throw away a piece of paper, I saw the altar guild members pouring unused wee cuppies back into the bottle, with a funnel. I fight the liturgical war all the time, even to the point of defending the use of lectionary readings at all. The list could go on and on. Why do I stay? Because it's where I've always been, I suppose, and my roles there have given me a sense of obligation.
For me, TEC does offer quite a bit: priests trained in liturgy (even the most contemporary-leaning around here respect the Rite), proper ablutions and tabernacles or aumbries, and I suppose the opposite of what Mockingale sought: academically-influenced sermons as opposed to emotionally-driven ones.
I think a great deal of it comes down to the pastor/priest in charge at a church; and in the Midwest, that means serious, vestigial Biretta Belt priests, and happy-clappy, Low Church seminary-trained ELCA pastors.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I've never met such a bishop as described above, from either TEC or ELCA.
It's one of those things that people hear about, but never really encounter for themselves. There's a reason they are still harping on Bishop Spong, who hasn't even been serving as bishop for 13 years now. What is a real mystery is Gorpo's interest in it- he's a Brazilian Lutheran. The odds are against him having even met an Episcopalian before, but he eats up everything David Virtue tells him.
quote:
On a side note, this thread has been a peculiar one for me, in that I have considered making the opposite swim from Mockingale. When I walked into the sacristy today to throw away a piece of paper, I saw the altar guild members pouring unused wee cuppies back into the bottle, with a funnel.
Well, whatever the theology that's just unhygienic. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I know the usual Lutheran party line is that the elements revert back to ordinary bread and wine after the service, but that actually doesn't get Luther quite right. For Luther, the service of the table ended when the elements were consumed, so the idea of leftovers didn't play in to it for him.
quote:
I fight the liturgical war all the time, even to the point of defending the use of lectionary readings at all. The list could go on and on. Why do I stay? Because it's where I've always been, I suppose, and my roles there have given me a sense of obligation.
For me, TEC does offer quite a bit: priests trained in liturgy (even the most contemporary-leaning around here respect the Rite), proper ablutions and tabernacles or aumbries, and I suppose the opposite of what Mockingale sought: academically-influenced sermons as opposed to emotionally-driven ones.
I think a great deal of it comes down to the pastor/priest in charge at a church; and in the Midwest, that means serious, vestigial Biretta Belt priests, and happy-clappy, Low Church seminary-trained ELCA pastors.
Converts have a habit of comparing their old denomination's worst days to their new denomination's best days.
[ 14. July 2013, 21:26: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
When I walked into the sacristy today to throw away a piece of paper, I saw the altar guild members pouring unused wee cuppies back into the bottle, with a funnel.
Hideous abuse of the Most Precious Blood aside, I was taught in High School Chemistry that you never, ever, under any circumstances, pour unused anything back into the stock bottle, due to the risk of introducing contamination.
Even if you have the misfortune to have a bunch of rememberantists, they should know that...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
...When I walked into the sacristy today to throw away a piece of paper, I saw the altar guild members pouring unused wee cuppies back into the bottle, with a funnel.
Well, whatever the theology that's just unhygienic.
quote:
and Leorning Cniht on:
...contamination...
Since you bring up theology, were it the Most Blessed Sacrament, Zach82, your comment would, of course, be complete bollocks—Medicine of Immortality and all that.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
The accidents of bread and wine include being able to host germs. Just sayin'.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
♩Receive ♩the ♫Body ♫of ♩Christ, ♩taste ♩the ♫fountain ♩of ♫Immortality♫
Sing that sixty-dozen times at the Divine Liturgy and see if you don't shed tears and change your mind. Just singin'.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
If we reverently consume like we're supposed to, this debate needn't come up at all.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I fight the liturgical war all the time, even to the point of defending the use of lectionary readings at all. The list could go on and on... For me, TEC does offer quite a bit: priests trained in liturgy (even the most contemporary-leaning around here respect the Rite), proper ablutions and tabernacles or aumbries...
'Fight the liturgical war' - why? We've all got personal preferences, of course, but your concerns seem based on something deeper. What are proper ablutions, tabernacles and aumbries; how do improper versions of those things differ? How do we know which is proper and which is improper? Why does this all matter so much that it's worth 'fight[ing] the liturgical war' over?
Questions all somewhat rhetorical, but I'll be interested to read any answers you're inclined to give. Maybe a discussion for a separate (non-Hellish?) thread? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Mind you, I do agree on the basic hygienic issue regarding pouring unconsumed communion wine / juice back into the container. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
