|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Episcopal Church
|
gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
How many of this sort of liberal actually exist outside of your paranoid little mind, gorpo?
If you think the majority of the episcopal bishops including the primate actually believe in stories like Jesus nativity and ressurrection as historical events, may I suggest your mind is much more creative then mine.
I know that most people in the congregations are sincere believers, but they are being terribly fooled by their clergy.
You don´t spend 5 years being trained in a seminary to deny the historicity of every single event in the gospels and the divinity of Christ, and out of the blue become a creedal christian once you´re ordained.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Which episcopal bishops are we talking about, Gorpo? Church of England or the TEC? Or any other Episcopalian grouping?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Gorpo is clearly of the belief that repeating the same lies over and over again is as good as actually proving them.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
How many of this sort of liberal actually exist outside of your paranoid little mind, gorpo?
If you think the majority of the episcopal bishops including the primate actually believe in stories like Jesus nativity and ressurrection as historical events, may I suggest your mind is much more creative then mine.
I know that most people in the congregations are sincere believers, but they are being terribly fooled by their clergy.
You don´t spend 5 years being trained in a seminary to deny the historicity of every single event in the gospels and the divinity of Christ, and out of the blue become a creedal christian once you´re ordained.
Ah, so this is about anti-intellectualism, I see. No skilled theologian can possibly be a believer. And you know this because:
(a) in a dark night of soul searching each of the Bishops has phoned and confessed their unbelief to you.
(b) they have made public statements to this end.
(c) you're full of shit and are creating strawman liberals so that you don't have to deal with the real thing.
I wonder, which could it be?
I also note, with interest, that the plague of unbelief afflicting TEC has spread to all the clergy, not just the Bishops.
[ 20. July 2013, 19:49: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
How many of this sort of liberal actually exist outside of your paranoid little mind, gorpo?
If you think the majority of the episcopal bishops including the primate actually believe in stories like Jesus nativity and ressurrection as historical events, may I suggest your mind is much more creative then mine.
I know that most people in the congregations are sincere believers, but they are being terribly fooled by their clergy.
You don´t spend 5 years being trained in a seminary to deny the historicity of every single event in the gospels and the divinity of Christ, and out of the blue become a creedal christian once you´re ordained.
Ah, so this is about anti-intellectualism, I see. No skilled theologian can possibly be a believer. And you know this because:
(a) in a dark night of soul searching each of the Bishops has phoned and confessed their unbelief to you.
(b) they have made public statements to this end.
(c) you're full of shit and are creating strawman liberals so that you don't have to deal with the real thing.
I wonder, which could it be?
I also note, with interest, that the plague of unbelief afflicting TEC has spread to all the clergy, not just the Bishops.
Ah, so this is about anti-christianity. No skilled theologian can believe such things like ressurection, virginal births and afterlife. If our denomination wants really skilled theologians, then we should drop these beliefs...
The more that you PRETEND to not know things, the more ridiculous it looks. Why would a Cathedral choose someone who OPENLY denies almost every creedal belief as a canon theologian? (http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/81803_112644_ENG_HTM.htm)
Why would a diocese promote an event where a non-believer teaches his audience that Jesus has NOT ressurrected just a few days before Easter? (http://juicyecumenism.com/2013/03/12/virginia-episcopalians-spotlight-jesus-seminars-dominic-crossan/)
Why would a primate of a creedal denomination, in an Easter message, talk about the comming of the Spring and not even mention the ressurrection of Christ?
Why would a denominational Divinity School choose as its own dean someone who doesn´t seem to comes miles near anything close to christian beliefs, and even seem to have a profound hatred for creedal christianity? (http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2009/03/30/episcopal-divinity-school-chooses-abortion-rights-leader-as-next-dean/)
You´re really messed up! You confuse scholarship with christian faith. Being a biblical scholar doesn´t make anyone a christian any more then being a Kuran scholar makes one a muslim!
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Ugh, just ignore the little shit. His summer holidays will end soon enough, and Gorpo will go back to flunking out of middle school.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
Someone get a mop and bucket, gorpo's splurting non-sequiturs from every orifice.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Zach82: Ugh, just ignore the little shit. His summer holidays will end soon enough, and Gorpo will go back to flunking out of middle school.
(Gorpo is in Brazil. Summer holidays are in January here.)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
At least I don't have to check gorpo's links because despite obvious effort on his part, there are none.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
How many of this sort of liberal actually exist outside of your paranoid little mind, gorpo?
If you think the majority of the episcopal bishops including the primate actually believe in stories like Jesus nativity and ressurrection as historical events, may I suggest your mind is much more creative then mine.
This is a thankless contribution, I know, but I did want to point out that gorpo has backed down from claiming that the majority of bishops disbelieve the historicity of the nativity accounts and of the resurrection accounts to asserting (1) the appointment of a single canon theologian, (2) a lecture in a single diocese, (3) something with no link, and (4) the appointment of a dean to a divinity school widely scorned. quote:
You don´t spend 5 years being trained in a seminary to deny the historicity of every single event in the gospels and the divinity of Christ, and out of the blue become a creedal christian once you´re ordained.
Seminary education in the US is typically only three years, though some stick around for a fourth or fifth year (ThM or STL). Of course, it's bollocks to characterize seminary education in the US as he does.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: Ugh, just ignore the little shit. His summer holidays will end soon enough, and Gorpo will go back to flunking out of middle school.
(Gorpo is in Brazil. Summer holidays are in January here.)
Ah, so he is the Mouth of the Amazon.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
Why would a denominational Divinity School choose as its own dean someone who doesn´t seem to comes miles near anything close to christian beliefs, and even seem to have a profound hatred for creedal christianity? (http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2009/03/30/episcopal-divinity-school-chooses-abortion-rights-leader-as-next-dean/)
Balls, you're tedious. You seem to imagine this vast army of agnostics who knowingly enroll in three years of divinity school and rack up tens of thousands of dollars of debt just so they can pursue a career making $30K a year and hopping from parish to parish around the country in search of a rare job opening pitching a religion they don't believe in. For... what reason, exactly? Why would someone sign up for that if they didn't believe in God or Christ or the creeds in the first place? I mean, that's what you are suggesting, since it is so obvious that all seminaries (except TSfM or Nashotah... FOR NOW) are all run by communistic lesbian babykillers.
Oh, I know. Priests get all the chicks (or dudes depending).
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
communistic lesbian babykillers
Now that is the true sign of the decline and fall of American culture. That Lesbian is no longer capitalized.
Ferget the communists and abortionists.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Mockingale: Balls, you're tedious. You seem to imagine this vast army of agnostics who knowingly enroll in three years of divinity school and rack up tens of thousands of dollars of debt just so they can pursue a career making $30K a year and hopping from parish to parish around the country in search of a rare job opening pitching a religion they don't believe in. For... what reason, exactly?
Duh, world domination.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
two thousand years and world domination hasn't quite been managed yet. I wouldn't hold your breath, Evensong. try for neighborhood domination, maybe.
start a little club?
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
You think all those Christians would be grateful that these selfless atheists are donating their time and poverty so that the Christians can still have a few priests and ministers, since the Christians obviously can't tolerate going to seminary themselves.
No good deed goes unpunished
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Yes, go right ahead and make an idol out of your own pig ignorance, by all means - just don't kid yourself it's God you're worshipping.
What, instead of subjecting the scriptures to the spirit of the age, you mean? The Zietgeist being the idol of the liberal, that is. In doing so the liberal makes a mockery of the Holy Spirit.
Straw man
I think the score was about even there based on Qlib's contribution and Ad Orientem's concern about the zeitgeist isn't a little or vain one
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I wouldn't hold your breath, Evensong. try for neighborhood domination, maybe.
start a little club?
I'd make a truly terrible parish priest..... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Since you choose to live in the Dark Ages, I damn well hope you can find a lamp-stand.
quote:
and QLib: Yes, go right ahead and make an idol out of your own pig ignorance, by all means - just don't kid yourself it's God you're worshipping.
Translation: quote:
We're arrogant tossers who are so busy looking down our noses at those whom we consider intellectual pygmies and theological Neanderthals that we have no idea where we're actually going
There, fixed that for you. Now take your higher criticism and stick it where the sun don't shine!
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Translation: We're arrogant tossers who are so busy looking down our noses at those whom we consider intellectual pygmies and theological Neanderthals that we have no idea where we're actually going
The arrogant tossers are those who would write off all modern scholarship as unworthy of attention because anyone who questions anything is self-evidently an "unbeliever". And what do they unbelieve in? Why, whatever the writer thinks is the correct interpretation.
Be a traditionalist, by all means - there are plenty of intellectually respectable traditionalists - but those who are too scared to enter into dialogue with modern scholarship, undermine their own tradition by suggesting it isn't worth much. I'm not talking about intellectual pigmies, just a child sitting in the corner, with its fingers stuck in its ears, going: "Nyar, nyar - can't hear you."
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
I have no objection to dialogue, or indeed to modern scholarship which sheds greater light on that which has already been revealed; what I take issue with is that which seeks to overturn established dogma (and sometimes indeed has that agenda) and set the wisdom of Man in its great glory over and against the revelation of God already given to us. So, those works of higher criticism which lead down this road of apostasy and cause those sections of the church which embrace them to disappear up its own arse I will dialogue with (FWIW) but there's no way you'll ever going to find me accepting them.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have no objection to dialogue, or indeed to modern scholarship which sheds greater light on that which has already been revealed; what I take issue with is that which seeks to overturn established dogma (and sometimes indeed has that agenda) and set the wisdom of Man in its great glory over and against the revelation of God already given to us. So, those works of higher criticism which lead down this road of apostasy and cause those sections of the church which embrace them to disappear up its own arse I will dialogue with (FWIW) but there's no way you'll ever going to find me accepting them.
Exactly.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have no objection to dialogue, or indeed to modern scholarship which sheds greater light on that which has already been revealed; what I take issue with is that which seeks to overturn established dogma (and sometimes indeed has that agenda) and set the wisdom of Man in its great glory over and against the revelation of God already given to us. So, those works of higher criticism which lead down this road of apostasy and cause those sections of the church which embrace them to disappear up its own arse I will dialogue with (FWIW) but there's no way you'll ever going to find me accepting them.
Exactly.
The Roman Catholic Church hasn't gotten the anti-intellectual memo, if the education it gave me is any indication.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have no objection to dialogue, or indeed to modern scholarship which sheds greater light on that which has already been revealed; what I take issue with is that which seeks to overturn established dogma (and sometimes indeed has that agenda) and set the wisdom of Man in its great glory over and against the revelation of God already given to us. So, those works of higher criticism which lead down this road of apostasy and cause those sections of the church which embrace them to disappear up its own arse I will dialogue with (FWIW) but there's no way you'll ever going to find me accepting them.
Your response begs more questions than it answers - how do you decide whether new light is greater light? There is no real dialogue unless you accept the possiblity that your thinking might be changed. And for someone who began accusing others of arrogance to then go on talking about anyone who takes a different view disappearing up their own arse is pretty rich.
God's revelation is always percolated through our own wisdom and, however ancient a revelation is, each one of us only encounters it for the first time within our own lifetime.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Well, for a start I won't be doing it on an individualistic basis but in tandem with other Christians (the Church; OK, we can have a whole new conversation about how one defines 'the Church' ) but to give you a quick answer, greater light is generally shed when it builds on what has gone before rather than seeks to overthrow it.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
If "what has gone before" in the church has been revealed by God, there is no reason that what happens now in the church can't be revelation too.
Why is the "wisdom of Man" suddenly a problem when before it wasn't?
[ 22. July 2013, 13:14: Message edited by: Evensong ]
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
I think this is on point to the issue.
The very best bible studies for me seem to be the ones with one smart atheist, or with someone besmitten with New Age spirituality. When all I've got are fanbois who are eager to play an instrument in the Christian Band, all I get is a cacophonous gaggle of horn-blowers and drum-beaters.
Please, Jesus! Give me a smart atheist for every group!
In Other News: Comparing Hell thread lengths, it seems everybody wants to scrap over that sexy youngster, the Episcopal Church, while nobody is much interested in its dowager mother.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
Hence the 'generally' in my last post
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
If "what has gone before" in the church has been revealed by God, there is no reason that what happens now in the church can't be revelation too.
Why is the "wisdom of Man" suddenly a problem when before it wasn't?
Red herrings, I'm afraid. You're left with a conundrum, it seems, because if what is revealed by God today contradicts what has already been revealed then quite possibly, one has to admit, that neither is in fact right or revealed by God. All that is left is human wisdom and the result ii the same, the overthrow of God.
[ 22. July 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
See? So if St Beardy the Proto-orthodox didn't believe it in AD 450, it's the work of the Devil. Nice and simple.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You're left with a conundrum, it seems, because if what is revealed by God today contradicts what has already been revealed then quite possibly, one has to admit, that neither is in fact right or revealed by God. All that is left is human wisdom and the result ii the same, the overthrow of God.
God can be overthrown so easily? By skinny, pasty-faced theologians who still bear the psychic scars of being targeted by everyone else playing dodgeball during recess?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You're left with a conundrum, it seems, because if what is revealed by God today contradicts what has already been revealed then quite possibly, one has to admit, that neither is in fact right or revealed by God. All that is left is human wisdom and the result ii the same, the overthrow of God.
God can be overthrown so easily? By skinny, pasty-faced theologians who still bear the psychic scars of being targeted by everyone else playing dodgeball during recess?
In the minds of people, at least, yes. This is what the Enlightenment sought to do and what Modernism seeks to do.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You're left with a conundrum, it seems, because if what is revealed by God today contradicts what has already been revealed then quite possibly, one has to admit, that neither is in fact right or revealed by God. All that is left is human wisdom and the result ii the same, the overthrow of God.
What if what was believed before was merely human wisdom, and what is being revealed now is the true revelation from God? After all, if humans are capable of overthrowing God now then they must have been capable of doing so in the past as well.
[ 22. July 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
If you admit one then you're left with the same conundrum. Either there is one consistent tradition from the beginning or confusion.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
...implicitly, one consistent tradition which we must regard as true whether or not that is actually the case and for the sake of which we must rule out the possibility of God correcting the errors of previous generations
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
Depends on whether or not you believe in the Holy Spirit and the promises of Christ to his Church. If you believe that what was held before is not true, was the Holy Spirit on holiday?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If you admit one then you're left with the same conundrum. Either there is one consistent tradition from the beginning or confusion.
And if the very basis of that tradition is a single, early, mistaken premise then hasn't everything since been a house of cards? Maybe a wrong turn was taken centuries ago and as any navigator will tell you, the sooner you confess your error, the sooner you get on track. On the other hand, if you leave it too late, you might never get back where you need to be going.
Surely it pays to re-examine from the beginning, from the original texts, not from some latter-day crib sheet dreamed up for goodness knows what reason.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have no objection to dialogue, or indeed to modern scholarship which sheds greater light on that which has already been revealed; what I take issue with is that which seeks to overturn established dogma (and sometimes indeed has that agenda) and set the wisdom of Man in its great glory over and against the revelation of God already given to us. So, those works of higher criticism which lead down this road of apostasy and cause those sections of the church which embrace them to disappear up its own arse I will dialogue with (FWIW) but there's no way you'll ever going to find me accepting them.
Bingo, Matt.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Depends on whether or not you believe in the Holy Spirit and the promises of Christ to his Church. If you believe that what was held before is not true, was the Holy Spirit on holiday?
No, it means people are people and sometimes they believe that they have the Holy Spirit's messages aright and they really don't. Like the idea that it's perfectly fine for Christians to own slaves as long as they are nice to them. It was okay with Paul. It was okay with John Chrysostom and Augustine of Hippo. Not so much with St. Patrick. But then he had been a slave and might have been a bit prejudiced.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
Well, no actually. The church may have been complicit in such things but never by the mandate of scripture, only by ignoring it.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
Well, no actually. The church may have been complicit in such things but never by the mandate of scripture, only by ignoring it.
Oh, that's OK then.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
Well, no actually. The church may have been complicit in such things but never by the mandate of scripture, only by ignoring it.
Oh, that's OK then.
Except it's utter shite. The proponents of all three, did, and except in the case of slavery as far as I know, still do, quote Scripture in support of their position.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Depends on whether or not you believe in the Holy Spirit and the promises of Christ to his Church. If you believe that what was held before is not true, was the Holy Spirit on holiday?
I think we've had this discussion before, but it seems you're saying that the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) is infallible. If the 'promises of Christ to his Church' mean that no error can be admitted, then what option does that leave other than having to accept what the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) says, in full with no equivocation?
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
SCK: that argument only works if you want another option. If you (naming no names) have wandered from church to church in search of ever greater certainty and an ever lesser requirement to use the critical spirit God gave you, and (which is the real problem) are now furiously denouncing anyone who dares say 'yes but...' as decadent Enlightenment Illuminati, you don't.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
(naming no names)
This is hell, I see no reason to beat around Ad Orientem's bush.
[ 22. July 2013, 19:43: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think we've had this discussion before, but it seems you're saying that the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) is infallible.
Aye!
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: If the 'promises of Christ to his Church' mean that no error can be admitted, then what option does that leave other than having to accept what the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) says, in full with no equivocation?
It seems you don't understand dogmatic theology. Pray tell us, why exactly do you recite the Creed, for instance, that is assuming you recite it (and presumably believe what you're reciting)?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
(naming no names)
This is hell, I see no reason to beat around Ad Orientem's bush.
Believe me, baby, I ain't going nowhere near Ad Orientem's bush...
[ 22. July 2013, 20:11: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think we've had this discussion before, but it seems you're saying that the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) is infallible.
Aye!
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: If the 'promises of Christ to his Church' mean that no error can be admitted, then what option does that leave other than having to accept what the Church (whatever exactly you mean by that) says, in full with no equivocation?
It seems you don't understand dogmatic theology. Pray tell us, why exactly do you recite the Creed, for instance, that is assuming you recite it (and presumably believe what you're reciting)?
But clearly his lack of understanding pales into insignificance compared with what you don't understand, AO. Gah.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean like slavery and the subjugation of women and the right of kings which are all in keeping with the tradition of the church?
Well, no actually. The church may have been complicit in such things but never by the mandate of scripture, only by ignoring it.
Oh, that's OK then.
Except it's utter shite. The proponents of all three, did, and except in the case of slavery as far as I know, still do, quote Scripture in support of their position.
People misquote scripture in support of erroneous positions all the time, but that doesn't mean that they have a scriptural mandate for their position. And, invariably, the misquotation of scripture in support of such positions requires other passages of scripture to be ignored or explained away.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
