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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No: He/she is dead. Not passed. Fucking Dead.
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I think you only need to hear once that some one you cared about has died. It needs to be clear and unambiguous so you can't misinterpret it. The dead/died words are important here.
After that occasion, I concur taking the cue from the person is important for language style. Often silence is most erudite. Or asking about a favourite memory.
Part of the disagreement on this thread stems from the context of the conversation. Initial news needs to be short simple and crystal clear. All after that doesn't matter. The word dead/died can be used without being cruel - when we don't use it as a club.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
Some of them do. For myself, I remember standing in the front row at my father's funeral, listening to someone read a poem about a ship passing over the horizon, having just sung a song about crossing the Jordan, being just rigid with fury and wanting to shout out loud, 'Why can't someone say dead?'.
All this other faffing makes what has actually happened seem of no account. I'll only ever have one father - for me this loss is monumental, but I'm supposed to be comforted by this, this, tired metaphor?
Oh, he's just passed over the horizon out of my sight, has he? Well, that's ok then - can't think what I was getting so worked up about. The resurrection is an attractive idea, no doubt, but what I know for sure is that my Dad is actually, factually, dead.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
So taking my cue from you I would continue to use the dead word.
D=n+1
I think we all need to hear the dead word, D, at least once and after that, n times depending on the comfort of the person being spoken to.
(Most of my experience here is pre and peri dying and breaking the news, rather than ongoing bereavement counselling and that colours my opinion.)
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides. The worst example I've come across recently was where a principal refused to make a public statement to the kids at all, saying that he didn't want to stir things up. It was put to him in words of one syllable that within minutes of the suicide happening the kids had all been texting each other with the news, and did he want to put accurate information out there or leave it to the lurid imaginations of teenagers?
He chose to keep on saying nothing. Leadership fail.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
Some of them do. For myself, I remember standing in the front row at my father's funeral, listening to someone read a poem about a ship passing over the horizon, having just sung a song about crossing the Jordan, being just rigid with fury and wanting to shout out loud, 'Why can't someone say dead?'.
All this other faffing makes what has actually happened seem of no account. I'll only ever have one father - for me this loss is monumental, but I'm supposed to be comforted by this, this, tired metaphor?
Oh, he's just passed over the horizon out of my sight, has he? Well, that's ok then - can't think what I was getting so worked up about. The resurrection is an attractive idea, no doubt, but what I know for sure is that my Dad is actually, factually, dead.
Fair point. I still think that nearly everyone who goes through mourning is going to avoid something for a while, and advisedly. For one thing, the process often brings up so many conflicting and disturbing feelings, such as anger, relief, guilt, fear, grief, and so on, that it's very difficult to absorb all this. Many people go into survival mode, or become very busy around the house and so on.
Then gradually the stuff starts to come up, and can take a long time. But the defences here are important, as they protect us from overload. Any counsellor who tries to break down these defences is playing with fire, except in emergencies possibly.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
English is known for having an exceptionally rich vocabulary, with a large number of synonyms and near-synonyms, so it's rather bemusing to see some of you insist there is only one correct term when, as mousethief astutely observed, there isn't any doubt as to what some other terms MEAN.
Also, lighting candles in Hell is a bit like using your camera flash in broad daylight. We've got plenty of fiery warmth down here already.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Perhaps what we need is a bucket of cold water smilie (not for this thread, obviously).
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Lost, though, is rather ambiguous...
I was sitting next to my younger daughter at Sunday School when one of the other children (they were both about 4) told her she had 'lost her mother' (I adopted my daughter, and she is fairly obviously not my biological child).
My daughter looked at him in total confusion - I kept pointing out that I wasn't lost, I was sitting right there ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) but he wasn't having any of it...
(as a matter of fact, her birth mother had neither died nor been lost either ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) )
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
English is known for having an exceptionally rich vocabulary, with a large number of synonyms and near-synonyms, so it's rather bemusing to see some of you insist there is only one correct term when, as mousethief astutely observed, there isn't any doubt as to what some other terms MEAN.
Also, lighting candles in Hell is a bit like using your camera flash in broad daylight. We've got plenty of fiery warmth down here already.
Sorry mate, but....
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
And there are times when identifying with the opening poster is appropriate, even if for some, that involves emoticons. Hell had a rather broad community remit after all.
I'll even send prayers your way. Would you like for or against. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think that makes it clear. Breaking news of death should be unambiguous, and should not use euphemisms.
But mourning is a private process, and generally should not be interrupted by others, or interfered with. The exception being when it goes on too long, (called 'melancholia' by Freud, I suppose 'depression' today), or if it becomes bizarre and outlandish, but that is a difficult judgment as well. I used to estimate about two years for most people, but that is flexible.
See Miss Havisham for bizarre and outlandish.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is nothing remotely ambiguous about passed away. Some other methods of euphemism might be ambiguous, yes, but I cannot think of any other meaning for passed away.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But people like doctors should say, 'your mother has died', to make it clear.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Orfeo, you are not wrong. However I would argue that short sharp sentences, even two syllables shorter are easier to comprehend when you are under enormous stress. People may also go to extraordinary lengths to misunderstand. But I wouldn't get an ulcer over your usage.
Another aspect which is a little harder to explain is education. Western society seems largely terrified of death. It is a normal part of life. Being comfortable using the dead word in a way helps normalise death as a part of life.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Thanks guys - a useful thread.
I've just been writing to a lady whose husband has died, and I found the debate about wording very helpful.
(My apologies to hosts for being unhellish.)
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is nothing remotely ambiguous about passed away. Some other methods of euphemism might be ambiguous, yes, but I cannot think of any other meaning for passed away.
There apparently is a real life priest called Pastor Way. It must get very confusing at funerals.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
You have evidence for this, I suppose? Some kind of study?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
I spoke to someone I hadn't seen for a long time - an acquaintance rather than a friend - and was told that her father had "passed". It took me a while to realise that she meant he had died. I've since heard "passed" a few times, and it still sounds odd.
If told that someone has "passed" without explanation, I would assume that "examination" was the implicit noun in the sentence, and my reply would be "Congratulations!"
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There apparently is a real life priest called Pastor Way. It must get very confusing at funerals.
But "Pastor Way passed away" would make a great headline for an obituary.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
At the risk of being facetiously unHellish, I am reminded of this old joke , beautifully performed by John Cleese and Joe Melia at 1hr and 4 mins into the film.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
Just from experience I would rather the news of a death be given to me succinctly as possible. So the few syllable word died is preferable to the more syllabled phrase passed away. Both will just as much but drawing it out any length is just a bit torturous.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides.
Factor in the 'copy-cat' risk to appreciate why this might be so.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
You have evidence for this, I suppose? Some kind of study?
Funnily enough the counsellors and psychologists called into the school were saying there are some ... right now I don't have time to run off and look them up. No doubt, it being academic argument, there will be contrary articles too.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
[crossposted with Cooked Oats ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
Oh, yes, we cancer nurses do use the word "cancer". It's important that we do. It's a word, not a sentence. I'm sorry that people had a different experience.
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You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
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Posted
Another euphemism that pisses me off:
I hate the automatic response "rest in peace" often posted on line when someone dies.
For example: I want John Peel to be remembered in the glorious sounds of the loud clashing music that he loved and shared with us.
Peace is the last thing I think he'd want.
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You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid? Is it the strutting of petty pride in "straight talking" that serves no purpose other than stripping language of its richness? Or is it the sad and faithless pandering to the lead culture's materialism that considers death to be the end?
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid? Is it the strutting of petty pride in "straight talking" that serves no purpose other than stripping language of its richness? Or is it the sad and faithless pandering to the lead culture's materialism that considers death to be the end?
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
The OP complaint was about him being required to not use plain English and to always use euphemisms. That is as nasty as requiring someone to use plain English when they prefer to use a euphemism.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Mousie, yes. There are a lot more educational materials rather than studies but both exist. I'll post later from home rather than an iPhone.
Ingob, the thread has evolved into a discussion on effective communication in this area. You may choose any language style you wish, but if you want to communicate clearly and well, then yes, there are guidelines that assist.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The OP complaint was about him being required to not use plain English and to always use euphemisms.
But the thread has moved WAY on since the OP. There are plenty of stone-hearted krill fuckers wailing about the evils of ANYBODY using "passed away." Much as I hate to agree with IngoB, he's got this one nailed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
It's the kind of judgmentalism -plain speak vs euphemism- on this thread that keeps some people from even trying to speak comfort to the bereaved. It seems better to keep silent than to offend. And that's sad. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides.
Factor in the 'copy-cat' risk to appreciate why this might be so.
I work in adolescent mental health. My comment was about leaving kids to gossip and dramatise or giving them straightforward information. I know which is more likely to cause copycat, and it isn't the latter.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It's the kind of judgmentalism -plain speak vs euphemism- on this thread that keeps some people from even trying to speak comfort to the bereaved. It seems better to keep silent than to offend. And that's sad.
I worked with bereaved people for 30 years. It's client-centred work. That is, I don't sit with them, in order to convince them of my view on life, but to listen to theirs. I'm not saying that this is easy, but I think if you start with that perspective, it helps. Of course, further down the road, you may end up offending some people, if you end up in a conflict, which can happen. The bereaved are often very very angry and guilty, and the fireworks can go off.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If the two of you are referring to my posts, then I am at a loss and not seeing it. Feel free to educate me. Otherwise, I will toughen up and not look at things personally.
Fine. Here.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
This is judgmental, hurtful, and inaccurate.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I finally feel strongly enough about something to venture into Hell: I may well live to regret that decision....
I function best by calling a spade a spade:I have faced the possible deaths of my brother and youngest daughter to cancer (thankfully both survived and their treatment was successful despite the prognosis) and in both cases would openly use the "death" word when talking about the situation but not when talking to them unless they used the word.The point being that despite my own preference for that language, it was more important to me to take my lead from them and see where we went in the conversations.
When my Dad was dying (it took two months)I would answer people's questions with clear references to this fact using the words "dead, death" because my father had faced the facts and called those shots.He was very clear that he was dying but right at the end he stopped using the word so I did too.
Some people couldn't cope with my choice of language in all three situations which begs the question of whether this was about me or them. As I was the potential bereaved person I carried on using the words that sat well with me.
As I've supported friends facing the death of a loved one, I've taken my lead from them and made forays into their euphemistic vocabulary even though I don't like it.
Surely in the name of all that good and holy it's not about my preferences but care for them in their need?
The rest of the time, I'll use the real word but if someone struggles with that I'll try to find out why and what it's tapping into in them rather than allowing myself to become too annoyed.....well on a good day I will!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
MrsBeaky, I thought that was very well put.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Mousie, you must be great with the bible the way you take quotes out of context. However, the word 'may' may have been better than 'will'.
Still, I am done. I will bow to your obvious experience in communicating breaking bad news. Besides, I need to go speak to a whale about sourcing some krill...
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
As it happens, I wrote an e-mail to a friend this morning offering condolences on the death of her father. She used the word dying, I used the word death. Had she used a euphemism, I would almost certainly used the equivalent euphemism.
Last year when my mother died and I was notified by my brother, we used the plain words in our conversation. It's what I prefer in my bereavement and as my brother is a doctor, I think he found the plain term or medical terminology more comforting than Victorian euphemism.
Then again as an atheist I don't have many comforting stories such as gone to glory or hanging with God. Enriching the compost pile doesn't have the same comfort.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death. They had a whole culture of death, complete with mourning clothes, jewellery displaying locks of hair, post-mortem photographs, etc etc. My gt gt grandfather committed suicide and the newspaper report included details of the rope with which he hung himself, how many inches his feet were from the ground when he was found, and who cut him down.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
No, the Victorians were hung up on sex. It's we whose hang-ups involve death.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Mousie, you must be great with the bible the way you take quotes out of context.
What context? The rest of this post was about the OP, not mourning people. Nice dodge.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid?
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
I answered the phone. It was my mother-in-law's nursing home.
"I have to tell you Mrs. xxxxxx has stopped breathing.
"Have you called and ambulance?"
"No."
"She needs a doctor. Have you called a doctor?"
"No, she's stopped breathing."
And then of course the penny dropped.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death. They had a whole culture of death, complete with mourning clothes, jewellery displaying locks of hair, post-mortem photographs, etc etc. My gt gt grandfather committed suicide and
Indeed they did. They also had a whole new industry, which grew up during the Civil War of undertaking and embalming and cemeteries. Those business men were especially fond of the euphemisms. One trade magazine was called "Casket and Sunny Side".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
First the obligatory bullshit defense: 1. Tu quoque fallacy. 2. I post mostly in Purg and Hell. 3. I have said sorry for posts in Purg when I hurt someone beyond the scope of argument.
But more importantly: I have had to deal with tragic deaths. Several times, in different settings, including one where a follow-on suicide was a present possibility. Enforcing proper vocabulary in these circumstances is just ... repugnant and absurd. Hell yeah, I did search for words at times, but for fear of losing people not precision.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
IngoB, there is a distinct difference between language utilised in ongoing counselling and in breaking bad news. It reflects the different intent. And kindness and empathy can easily be expressed even in using plain unadorned English one syllable words. This has been reiterated over and over by many different posters.
In your cases, I suspect you were not breaking the news. And as many have said, in ongoing counselling, even being a friend, you take your cues from the bereaved.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, Paul also referred to those "who have fallen asleep"
I believe Jesus used the same euphemism about Lazarus. Although to be fair, one of his disciples took it exactly wrong, and he had to stop and get all literal on his ass. But if I had a nickel for every time the disciples took something bass-ackwards in the Gospels, I'd be at least one candy bar to the good. So I'm not sure that's terribly damning.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
Our former churchyard groundsman, now dead, found his son dead one day. He never, ever used the word 'dead'. He said his son had fallen asleep. He called his grave a 'plot', and he insisted the churchyard was not a graveyard, but a churchyard. Nobody in our churchyard ever spoke of a 'grave' to dear B and got away with it. Nobody ever said his son was dead. But B knew. He found him dead. He knew.
He said it would be really strange to spend ten years looking after a graveyard with love and care, but perfectly fine to do so for a churchyard.
I see no reason to object that he coped with his life and the death of his son in the only way he could. Life had been brutal enough; there was no need for me to add to that.
But when I spoke of my husband, I used the word dead. In his case death was a merciful end to a very horrible existence, and not just for him. Still brutal, still terrible in its finality, still totally incomprehensible to me, but thank God he got there in the end.
B let me say dead of my husband. I let him say asleep of his son.
As for whether a candle in hell is redundant; imo it is an act of mercy; a candle in hell does not add to the heat, but reduces it.
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Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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