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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No: He/she is dead. Not passed. Fucking Dead.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, Paul also referred to those "who have fallen asleep" ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
In some Christian contexts the word dead is not appropriate. With apologies for those who do not share this point of view, there are no dead in Christ; those who have entered eternity are more alive than we are because they are closer to God.
To talk of saints being dead would therefore be a contradiction in terms. But to talk of them as alive without qualification would be also misleading; dear Paul is trying to find an alternative, and in context it is clear what he means. Asleep in relation to this world. Dead only to us; alive to God.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We had a suicide (again) at my school this morning.
I am very sorry to hear this.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
My sister-in-law rang to say Dad was "going" I said "where?" ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I wasn't being funny, I just went blank about what she meant until she said his kidneys were failing. (Also he had once run away from the care home where he lived so I thought he was doing it again).
I don't really like "lost" either as for me it always has shades of Lady Bracknell.
Both of those are personal preferences. If someone who was bereaved used either word about the death I would honour their choice.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death.
Have a walk around any Churchyard and look at the epitaphs on tombstones if you want to see how sentimentality over death waxes and wanes.
The most popular one in Victorian times seems the to have been "Blessed our the dead which die in the Lord". I don't see much mincing of words there.
The 'passed away' thing seems to have crept in after the war.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I mentioned cultural language once already, but I've been reminded of an example.
The people who live in the apartment downstairs from me are African-American. They refer to dying as "going home to the Lord."
It means a lot to them, even if it doesn't resonate with me. And when I discuss such things with them, I don't mind using their language.
In the end, it's the love and condolence I wish to offer--and sometimes I can make that more apparent if I use their language.
sabine
[ 03. August 2013, 15:07: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
First the obligatory bullshit defense: 1. Tu quoque fallacy.
It's not a fallacy when you really are a hypocrite.
quote:
2. I post mostly in Purg and Hell. 3. I have said sorry for posts in Purg when I hurt someone beyond the scope of argument.
But more importantly: I have had to deal with tragic deaths. Several times, in different settings, including one where a follow-on suicide was a present possibility. Enforcing proper vocabulary in these circumstances is just ... repugnant and absurd. Hell yeah, I did search for words at times, but for fear of losing people not precision.
I don't give a shit what you've dealt with. Your behavior on these boards, even with the occasional apology in Purgatory, has been thoughtless enough for years to leave you with absolutely no credibility when you try to accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
[ 04. August 2013, 03:33: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I also can't stand any word other than dead but sometimes, to be extra snotty with syrupy individuals I will say "kicked the bucket". For instance, I was talking to some smarmy individual who was going on and on about the saving blood of Jesus (ick!) and she asked when my parents died. Told her my dad kicked the bucket when I was eight and my mom kicked it even harder four years later. Syrupy individual was shocked all the way down to her sensible shoes and looked at me as if I was a minion of Satan.
Maybe people use "passed on" because saying someone is dead is so... deadening? I'm not trying to be funny here. The actual word is kind of like concrete or marble. Just massive and lonely and... final. I don't know...
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
When threads die, my preferred euphemism is 'locked'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's not a fallacy when you really are a hypocrite.
Wrong, it remains a fallacy no matter what.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't give a shit what you've dealt with.
I'm not looking for special consideration due to my past. I simply note that I speak from experience here.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Your behavior on these boards, even with the occasional apology in Purgatory, has been thoughtless enough for years to leave you with absolutely no credibility when you try to accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
As far as Purgatory goes, my attitude is "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." It is a place for argument, not for social niceties. And I believe that I take at least as much as I dish out there, on average.
You can believe that "IngoB in Purgatory" is all there is to me, rather than simply an internet persona of me. That's a pretty dumb belief, but whatever... However, I need no credibility to point out that playing vocabulary nazi concerning death is brutal and heartless. That is simply self-evident and requires no support based on my person.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person. I believe my RL friend; it's just a pity we see so little evidence of it on the Ship. I also understand - I think - Ingo's deliberate approach to SoF posting. It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone. While that may not, indeed, be Ingo's goal in posting, one would think that the effect of such posting shouldn't be to actively alienate others, yet it is that at which IngoB would often seem to be most successful.
Just thought: Hope referring to an RL communication to the effect that Ingo is actually a very kind person doesn't constitute a commandment violation. That hadn't previously occurred to me, but I guess I'll take my chances now.
[ 04. August 2013, 12:50: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid?
<snip>
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
Not certain anyone here is attempting to "educate" anyone. The OP'er vented, others have opined. I've not done a ledger, but ISTM, the balance of posts seem to be towards using whatever terms help the hearer.
This by Gwai
quote:
And anyone who doesn't use it the way we do is grating sand on a grieving soul.
is an issue. We do not not always know beforehand what the listener wishes to hear. If two grieve the same death, who's terminology are they obligated to use?
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within. This statement is not intended to be harsh, it simply the manner in which these things work.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I say Dead. Died. Rolled round in earth's diurnal course with rocks and stones and trees. No passing over and all the trumpets sounding on the other side. I really don't mind though what expression is used - so long as people say something and don't avoid you as if death were catching.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
Whilst we're talking about hypocrisy, let me state the choke-makingly obvious.
There have been plenty IngoBees of the liberal-left persuasion on the Ship who get/got nothing short of adulation - most of the time from most of the most prolific posters here - for their often more brutal and less nuanced "frankness" in the "opposite" direction.
Let's be a tiny bit aware of our own prejudices here, shall we? We all has thems.
[ 04. August 2013, 21:48: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
Whilst we're talking about hypocrisy, let me state the choke-makingly obvious.
There have been plenty IngoBees of the liberal-left persuasion on the Ship who get/got nothing short of adulation - most of the time from most of the most prolific posters here - for their often more brutal and less nuanced "frankness" in the "opposite" direction.
Let's be a tiny bit aware of our own prejudices here, shall we? We all has thems.
Which liberal guy has ever said the chief reason he was here was to beat other people in arguments? Which one? Shall I tell you which one? I'll tell you which one. NONE OF THEM. You are creating a false equivalence.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Which have made that specific claim? None I can think of. But then that wasn't my point, was it?
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
This isn't a complaint - I love this place too, you know - so much an apparently non-redundant reality-check.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
Well, like MT, I'm struggling to come up with a name. And who are these geeks who have the courage to criticise popular fuck-you arrogant liberals that no one else wants or dares to tackle?
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
Okay, now I know you guys are shitting me.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Which have made that specific claim? None I can think of. But then that wasn't my point, was it?
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
It seems appropriate to mention this thread...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within.
Agreed. While I appreciate LSK's friends' comment, I did not and do not ask for any real life credit here.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
I get off on arguing more than on winning. And in terms of your analogy, I consider Purgatory to be a swinger's club. A regular patron complaining about being used for sex is odd there. I think you are just angry that I use you as a mere butt plug. But hey, your posts are short and flared, and you are a pain in the ass...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think you are just angry that I use you as a mere butt plug.
It pleases me to let you think that, since it makes you so happy.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You can believe that "IngoB in Purgatory" is all there is to me, rather than simply an internet persona of me. That's a pretty dumb belief, but whatever...
Good thing I don't subscribe to it then. But all I know and deal with is the internet persona, which is pretty scummy sometimes. It doesn't matter how decent or kind or whatever you are in real life -- here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
Chesterbelloc, have the courage of your convictions and name names. If you don't, you're sacrificing credibility. And coming off as rather whiny.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
[ETA: On second thoughts, I can live with that, Ruth.]
[ 05. August 2013, 08:05: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
No, I haven't. As you would know if you knew something about boxing...
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
I have heard 'gone west' used by those members of my family who come from Yorkshire, of anything permanently gone, by whatever means; perhaps broken, or stolen or dead. It denotes completely out of reach, never to be seen again. Gone.
A vase can be said to have 'gone west' if it has fallen from a table and smashed. A plan to go on holiday has 'gone west' if it has to be cancelled.
It is less likely to be used of someone who has died, unless the person concerned is of no real interest, or is the subject of a degree of animosity. I have never heard it used of close family or friends.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
I have heard of punch bags. I did not know they could hit back.
What fun. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which liberal guy has ever said the chief reason he was here was to beat other people in arguments? Which one? Shall I tell you which one? I'll tell you which one. NONE OF THEM. You are creating a false equivalence.
I am not sure this is totally fair.
With the exception of the confessional, most people do not generally go around being honest about their motivation to anyone who will listen. Or indeed even to themselves.
Istm, liberals are as likely to want to be right, and indeed as certain that they are, as the next person. We all need to engage in a degree of reality checking once in a while, and not just with people who we know will automatically think exactly as we do.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
I have heard 'gone west' used by those members of my family who come from Yorkshire, of anything permanently gone, by whatever means; perhaps broken, or stolen or dead. It denotes completely out of reach, never to be seen again. Gone.
A vase can be said to have 'gone west' if it has fallen from a table and smashed. A plan to go on holiday has 'gone west' if it has to be cancelled.
It is less likely to be used of someone who has died, unless the person concerned is of no real interest, or is the subject of a degree of animosity. I have never heard it used of close family or friends.
I'm from London and used to hear 'gone west' as in most of ACR's examples. I've also said 'kicked the bucket' as mentioned above. Another is 'popped his/her clogs', which admittedly I haven't heard for a while.
I can't bear 'passed', 'passed away', and have usually quite firmly said 'died'. It is shockingly final, and sobering, and lonely, as The5thMary said.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within. This statement is not intended to be harsh, it simply the manner in which these things work.
IngoB has been very kind to me here on the Ship, possibly because he's a kind man.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
It had to be done ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
And even there, 'e 'adn't passed away.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
It doesn't?
I've been doing it wrong all this time?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
But nobody told me!
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
It had to be done
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Surely, liberals are always telling people they're wrong? The most dangerous people in the world, I reckon.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
No, I haven't. As you would know if you knew something about boxing...
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
It doesn't?
I've been doing it wrong all this time??
But nobody told me!
Yes, OK, not terribly clear. Let me try again. Some adherents of certain branches of the faith will deliver a verdict of wrongness from which they claim a sort of detachment:
quote:
Oh, it's not me who says you're wrong - perish the thought! No, no, no - this is not a matter of opinion - I actually know you are wrong because I know what God/the Bible/The Church says on this subject
It is this type of I'm- terribly- sorry -but- you're- headed- straight- for- Hell stance that is incompatible with liberalism. Of course, I didn't mean that liberals never suggest somebody is wrong - and what's more I don't really believe that that's what anybody really thought I was saying. Buncha wind-up merchants.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
You're right, you haven't been picking on the defenceless. Unfortunately you appear to have spent way too much time in the ring with the usual, inevitable, outcome.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF?
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
FWIW, I've sometimes found IngoB tactless, but never thoughtless or heartless.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Of course, I didn't mean that liberals never suggest somebody is wrong - and what's more I don't really believe that that's what anybody really thought I was saying.
I can assure you, QLib, that I certainly never thought you were saying that. I don't think anyone would ever accuse you of that level of obtuseness. What I thought you were saying was what you actually did say:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
After the number of times the "liberal position" (on a variety of issues) has been presented on the Ship as plain self-evident and beyond reasonable dispute (despite actual reasons being proferred in return), you'll have to forgive me for thinking that many "liberals" didn't get your memo.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
Indeed, you said that, and I've taken it apart here and here. Then you made an additional unsubstantiated claim, and that's what I've dealt with now.
Given that you are merely repeating yourself at this point, I reckon we are done?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Oh, I'm sure you're (self-)satisfied.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh, I'm sure you're (self-)satisfied.
Certainly. But out of curiosity, what outcome would have satisfied you?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Out of curiosity, IngoB, could you clear up a few things for me?
1) Are you claiming that you sometimes "pull your punches" in a debate?
2) When you have apologized for hurting someone's feelings, was it based solely on the aggrieved person's assertion of injury?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
Judging by this the original conversation was some time ago.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
1) Are you claiming that you sometimes "pull your punches" in a debate?
I do that quite regularly, in fact. But that's a different matter... Sticking with boxing terms, I sometimes deal serious low blows, and when I recognise that, then I apologise.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
2) When you have apologized for hurting someone's feelings, was it based solely on the aggrieved person's assertion of injury?
No. That someone claims injury is evidence for, but not proof of, me doing wrong. I apologise when I reckon that I actually have done wrong.
Mind you, that concerns SoF, and mostly SoF Purgatory at that. I simply think that by participating in a public discussion forum on the internet on contentious topics you are willingly exposing yourself to some bruising.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I actually like arguing with IngoB. It's really a pain in the ass when he can't conceive of the fact that sometimes people are basically on the same side as him. Last time we went at it, he said I was wrong and infinitely far from him because of my "rotten invincibly wrong Protestant core" or something unfathomably stupid like that, completely forgetting that he treats his fellow Catholics as equally wrong and stupid all the time.
But hey, I can't hold that against him if I expect to get away with the shit I expect to get away with, nu?
[ 06. August 2013, 10:45: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
I answered the phone. It was my mother-in-law's nursing home.
"I have to tell you Mrs. xxxxxx has stopped breathing.
"Have you called and ambulance?"
"No."
"She needs a doctor. Have you called a doctor?"
"No, she's stopped breathing."
And then of course the penny dropped.
I was called away before I could finish what I wanted to say here.
Years earlier, I took the call from my first wife's mother telling us that my then father-in-law had died in his sleep. I went to my wife in another room, sat on the arm of her chair, put my arm around her and said, "I'm sorry darling, your father's died." She immediately rushed to the phone, told me later she had seen instantly that something was wrong but - having recently had a scan for a suspected brain tumour (there wasn't one) - she'd thought it was bad news from the hospital.
As for me, I was told fairly bluntly that my father had died by a brother-in-law, while I was in a noisy, crowded staffroom. I sat stunned, until eventually someone noticed something was wrong.
The right way to announce or talk about death is so variable. If you know the person you're talking to well enough, you can choose direct or elliptical. If you don't, give the benefit of the doubt. Be gentle, allusive, until you have the measure of them.
[ 06. August 2013, 12:34: Message edited by: argona ]
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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