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Source: (consider it) Thread: Reading Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy
scuffleball
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I'm not sure if this is in line with commandments 8 and 9, or otherwise within the remits of this chatroom, but here goes.

Does anyone know good Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy to read that is original in its worldbuilding, e.g. isn't merely a Tolkein clone?

I have read and very much enjoyed enjoyed the first two books of the Earthsea quartet and am in the process of (slooowly) reading LoTR.

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Bullfrog.

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Patrick Rothfuss - Kingkiller Chronicles
Michelle Sagara - Chronicles of Elantra
Stephen Deas - Memory of Flames

That's a start.

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Others say God's a drunkard for pain
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Trudy Scrumptious

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Popular even before it became a TV series full of sex and gore (but the books are full of sex and gore too): George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, starting with "A Game of Thrones." Frustrating though in that the series isn't finished yet.

I highly recommend anything by Robin Hobb and anything by Guy Gavriel Kay. Hobb's books come mostly in trilogies and with the exception of the Soldier Son series, they're all set in the same world with characters and concerns that loosely connect, but each trilogy can be read independently. My husband and I started with the Mad Ships trilogy but the Assassin trilogy technically comes first if you want to read through the whole "series."

Guy Gavriel Kay's first trilogy, The Fionavar Tapsetry, is pretty typical high fantasy and heavily Tolkein-inspired (though also very original, and inspired by other things such as the Arthurian legends). His later books, of which "Tigana" and "The Lions of Al-Rassan" are my favourites, are each set in a culture that is modelled fairly closely on a real time and place -- say, Renaissance Italy or Moorish Spain or eighth-century China -- but with magical/fantasy elements introduced and with the freedom to create fictional characters and events that didn't actually happen in history. GGK is my favourite fantasy writer of all time.

Unlike most people, I hate Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books and love his lesser-known, less-appreciated pair of books "The Mirror of Her Dreams" and "A Man Rides Through" -- I think they tell a wonderful story with engaging characters in a very interesting world.

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Arch Anglo Catholic
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Now I love Stephen Donaldson but can also heartily recommend an odd cross over series between sci fi and fantasy, the saga of the exiles by Julian May. Quite excellent and a delightfully different 'take' on the outsider in the land of another.
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moonlitdoor
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I am not a big reader of fantasy but the Fionavar Tapestry which Trudy mentions is 1(3) of my favourite books of any kind. I have not read any fantasy that I enjoyed half as much. I had not even realised that it was influenced by Tolkien.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It's hardly worth it for the mockery and derision you get from readers of "proper" literature.

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Barnabas62
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Another vote for George R R Martin. A complex saga with a whole army of fascinating characters.

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Organ Builder
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It's not S&S, but having recently re-read them I would recommend Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Sometimes they are called "Gothic Fantasy", sometimes they are called "Fantasy of Manners"... His world is completely original, but the characters draw you in.

It's not really a "trilogy" in the conventional sense, and I find the first two books to be superior. They will stand on their own. The third book is fascinating, but it has always felt to me as though it is an outline that his failing health prevented him from finishing. I enjoy it most if I think of it as a very well-formed sketch.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Now I love Stephen Donaldson...

You really need to read about Clench Racing [Razz]

quote:

... but can also heartily recommend an odd cross over series between sci fi and fantasy, the saga of the exiles by Julian May.

Not great books, but fun in a sort of way. Unlike Donaldson I have read them more than once and will likely read them again one day. Gets more and more transparently Catholic as the series goes on. Extremely so by the end.

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Ken

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Does anyone know good Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy to read that is original in its worldbuilding, e.g. isn't merely a Tolkien clone?

If you haven't read any of Mark Chadbourn's amazing post-apocalyptic novels, I'd recommend you do so. They're dark, but they'll keep you gripped. Try The Age of Misrule, and see what you think.
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Laurelin
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am not a big reader of fantasy but the Fionavar Tapestry which Trudy mentions is 1(3) of my favourite books of any kind. I have not read any fantasy that I enjoyed half as much. I had not even realised that it was influenced by Tolkien.

Guy Gavriel Kay worked with Christopher Tolkien on The Silmarillion, back in the 1970s. [Cool]

Hence the (very) subtle tributes. But the Fionavar Trilogy is also much more Celtic/Arthurian in its tone than Tolkien ever is.

I enjoyed it too. [Smile] It's very over the top. [Big Grin] But a cracking read!

I've read very little official 'High Fantasy'. Onew of the reasons why I love Tolkien is that his world is deliberately styled to feel more like imaginary history, rather than fantasy.

I'd be very willing to give George RR Martin a go, but the books look interminable [Help] and the misogyny in his world is hard to stomach. Also, GRRM's famed propensity for killing off characters ...

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Hawk

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I don't know if it counts as it starts in a very tolkein-esque fashion (though it expands outwards from there and becomes very different) but the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (and Brandon Sanderson finishing) is one of the best world builds I've read. Rich and detailed, it keeps you interested for 14 very large volumes.

And Stephen Eriksson's Malazan Book of the Fallen has been highly recommended to me. I haven't managed to get through the first book which starts right in the middle of a very complicated world, and needs a bit of effort to get one's head round. But I'm assured by my friend that once you're in, you're addicted. In terms of world-building, it's one of the most detailed, and original.

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See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
It's not S&S, but having recently re-read them I would recommend Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Sometimes they are called "Gothic Fantasy", sometimes they are called "Fantasy of Manners"... His world is completely original, but the characters draw you in.

It's not really a "trilogy" in the conventional sense, and I find the first two books to be superior. They will stand on their own. The third book is fascinating, but it has always felt to me as though it is an outline that his failing health prevented him from finishing. I enjoy it most if I think of it as a very well-formed sketch.

There are few books that have made more of an impression on me than the Gormenghast books. I agree about the third in the series - it doesn't have the rich, sticky, grotesque quality of the first two, and I think the characters are more sketchy. Apparently there's a fourth - Titus Wakes or something like that - but I haven't seen it.

What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

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Snags
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quote:

Originally posted by Hawk:
the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan ... is one of the best world builds I've read ... it keeps you interested for 14 very large volumes.

Well, there's no accounting for taste [Smile]

I really enjoyed the first few, when it was billed as a trilogy, then a quintet. Then all of a sudden in about book 4 the characters all seemed to have a drastic reversion from developed, maturing folk to idiotic cardboard teens. I stuck with it until book 7, and Mrs Snags until book 9, but eventually the feeling that it was being cynically spun out to keep on raking in the cash overcame any joy in the story(stories).

Mind you, I found Gormenghast, Covenant and the Julian May stuff extremely turgid too, so maybe it's just me.

I'd second the Robin Hobb and non-Covenant Donaldson recommendations. Slightly at a tangent to the original request there are things like Moorcock's Eternal Champion series (not so much world-building as myth-building), Zelazny's Amber sequence, and Richard Morgan's hopefully soon to be completed trilogy that starts with The Steel Remains is a refreshing reboot of familiar themes.

As a teenager I devoured the David Eddings series (Belgariad, Mallorean) but having revisited them as an adult, they're still fun, but not as clever as they thought they were [Smile]

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Kyzyl

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I read the Belgariad books as a teenager. Haven't re-read them but I remember them as fun. I wonder where Pratchett fits into this. Not S&S really; fantasy in a broad sense. You can find all of those elements somewhere in the Discworld.

ETA: do books need to be "serious" in order to fit into the S&S/fantasy category?

[ 22. March 2013, 15:26: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:


And Stephen Eriksson's Malazan Book of the Fallen has been highly recommended to me. I haven't managed to get through the first book which starts right in the middle of a very complicated world, and needs a bit of effort to get one's head round. But I'm assured by my friend that once you're in, you're addicted. In terms of world-building, it's one of the most detailed, and original.

Second this. Erikson's not without his problems, but the Malazan series is great fun.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:


What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

I love BotNS, which is really SF that starts out making you think it's fantasy. Until you realize that you're actually reading about a far-future Earth, and that the narrator is extremely unreliable--forcing you to re-read, of course, to see what you missed!

The related Book of the Long Sun and Book of the Short Sun are not quite as good, partly because Wolfe overdoes the tricksiness.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:

As a teenager I devoured the David Eddings series (Belgariad, Mallorean) but having revisited them as an adult, they're still fun, but not as clever as they thought they were [Smile]

David Eddings had one story, and managed to get paid for writing it 4 times in 4 different series. The writing is better in his second pair of series ("The Diamond Throne" et. seq.), but it's not great.

I'll add another vote of support for Robin Hobb as being worth reading, and add a couple of other possibilities.

Katherine Kerr's Deverry series (beginning with "Daggerspell") is worth a read, although it's a 15 book series, and the last few seem a little contrived.

I'll also offer Janny Wurts's "Wars of Light and Shadow" series. This is epic high fantasy, original and well-written. The series isn't complete, though. She's been going for the last 20 years, and there are now 9 published books in the series, and she thinks she'll be finished in 12.

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Lyda*Rose

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I enjoyed Diane Duane's Tale of the Five trilogy: The Door Into Fire, The Door Into Shadow, and The Door Into Sunset. Her world of the Middle Kingdoms is rich and spiritual, and her characters balance their own inner turmoils and personal destinies with love and loyalty to their friends. And for me at least, I get a real sense of a whole other world in their travels.

She inserts the Triple Goddess into the stories, the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. One thing of note that in this religion it is quite likely for anybody to meet the Goddess at least once in their lifetimes and, in fact, sleep with her (!).

There are rumors that Ms. Duane will eventually also publish a fourth book called The Door Into Starlight. When...?

[ 22. March 2013, 15:59: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are few books that have made more of an impression on me than the Gormenghast books.

They are brilliant.

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

We think its.... Very Odd. Good but odd. Also very, very, Catholic, thoush in a much more hidden way than the Julian May books. I read them all and enjoyed them. Might well be works of genius.

Something no-one both sane and literate could say about Stephen Donaldson's stuff. I mean a read the things, I even sort of enjoyed them, but they are such crap. I'm sure he had a novel in him somewhere - about leprosy and rape and sustainable development and misogyny and contrition and lonliness and some other strong things that surely can be ingredients of powerful fiction - but its as if someone told thim that all fiction has to be in the form of third-rate pastiche of second-rate imitators of Tolkien. [Projectile] And as for his command of the language... well maybe it was mutinying the day he got his commission.

Continuing the Catholic theme, as well as Tolkien and May and Wolfe, RA Lafferty is/was also a serious Catholic, and shows it in his books. Which are always interesting and sometimes wonderful. And like Julian May and Gene Wolfe are not so much epic fantasy as SF in a fantasy overcoat. As in fact I suspect A Song of Ice and Fire is, though I woudln't be surprised if the SF bones never show through the fantasy and/or alternate-world flesh, even if GRRM has thought them out in detail, which he possibly hasn't. A Song of Ice and Fire is also in a sense pastiche, but in this case its well-done and intentional and occasionally very funny. He knows his sources and they are many and some of them quite obscure I think.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I really enjoyed the first few, when it was billed as a trilogy, then a quintet. Then all of a sudden in about book 4 the characters all seemed to have a drastic reversion from developed, maturing folk to idiotic cardboard teens. I stuck with it until book 7, and Mrs Snags until book 9, but eventually the feeling that it was being cynically spun out to keep on raking in the cash overcame any joy in the story(stories).

I got stuck on this when the action slowed almost to a late-model Donaldson coma at book 7, but after a long pause I picked it up again and it recovers. Particularly when Brandon Sanderson took up the reins.

Speaking of Sanderson, anybody mentioned the Mistborn books yet?

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HCH
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I recommend Patricia McKillip.
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:


Speaking of Sanderson, anybody mentioned the Mistborn books yet?

I was really excited by the first book, but the excitement diminished markedly through the second and third. Still fun, and I'm glad I read them, but they're not what they could have been.

I second also the recommendation for Richard Morgan's brutal fantasies. Just the thing for those who are put off by George R.R. Martin's sunny optimism.

And in the same vein, R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor trilogies are fine gritty fantasies set in a crapsack world, with a Nietzschean twist.

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Something no-one both sane and literate could say about Stephen Donaldson's stuff.

The thing that puts me off the Covenant series these days isn't so much any of the things you mention although I agree with them. It's not even his apparent intent to see if he can break the world record for number of pages in which nothing actually happens.

No, it's that what I enjoy about fantasy books most are those moments of redemptive victory. It doesn't matter how dire things get, eventually the good guys will turn out to have won in some way (even if they all end up dead). In Covenant every time somebody wins, it turns out they've actually ripped a hole in the fabric of reality and made things a million times worse than if they hadn't bothered. It's about as uplifting as throwing yourself off a cliff.

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Fr Weber
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Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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ken
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OK actual answer to the question, part one: Sword and Sorcery.

No-one has actually dealt with this yet (though some of the Michael Moorcock Eternal Champion books are S&S, ore nearly so, though most aren't. The Elric ones probably nearest, and the Corum ones have something of the feel of it theuogh they also get more into the Celtic-twilight-wishty-wishty sort of fantasy)

You really, really want to read Fritz Leiber's books about the city of Lankhmar and the anti-heroes Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Start anywhere, read all of them. They are the pinnacle of Sword and Sorcery. Or the swordpoint of it I suppose, if you want a more genre-related sharp thing. They are also (is this somethng of a theme as well) to some extent pastiche or knowing parody of what had gone before. And they are bloody good. Most of the books are collections of short stories, or paste-up novels made of previous short stories, though The Swords of Lankhmar is written as a novel, and its a good one. The best-known story is Ill Met in Lankhmar which is brilliant, one of the earliest in internal chronology, but one of the last written.

And the best of what had gone before is Ronbert E Howard. Especially Conan. Read it. Turn off your critical facilities a bit, remember he doesn't intend it all completely seriously (or if he did he was a loony. Come to think of it, he was a loony), forget the films, lket your imagination roam, and read some Conan stories. Most of them are fun, some of them are surprisingly good. Personally I think The Tower of the Elephant counts as literature. Read it. OK, it does help to be fifteen, male, and bored when you read them. But even if you aren't, give them a try. Its worth it. And you can't say you really know about Sword and Sorcety until you have!

Leiber's Lankhmar is an affectionate parody of Howard's Shadizar. And Ankh-Morpork is an affectionate parody of Shadizar. The first few books of Terry Pratchett's Discworld are sword-and-sorcery, of a very knowing and self-referential kind, and Pratchett is a far, far better writer than Howard (and probably a better one than Leiber). And he's really really funny. As the series goes on it starts to play with other genres as well as or instead of S&S (and a tinge of SF) and Ankh-Morpork morps away from Shadizar-cum-Lankhmar to something a lot more like early modern London with a slight overlay of Venice. (But then Shadizar is the child of Samarkand and Baghdad of the Arabian Nights, and that was begotten by Babylon)

Not really in print now, but some of the stories of CL Moore and Leigh Bracket are sword-and-sorcery. The earlier ones of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series are close to S&S, though in fact they are also SF dressed up as fantasy. As the series goes on the books get longer and more serious and more obviously SF, as well as feminist (with a bit of a Catholic tinge) One of my favourite writers - I think I might have all her books - but in this case I'm very willing to put that down as a matter of taste. (Some writers really are good. Some really are bad. Some really are down to taste)

Poul Anderson wrote some good fantasy stuff as well. And John Brunner's "Traveller in Black" stories are worth a read.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Trudy Scrumptious

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.

Mind you, Terisa, the main character in the other Donaldson series that I did recommend, also wallows in self-pity, but in her case it's part of an overall arc of character growth (also, she's under an enchantment and doesn't know it) and she GETS OVER IT. I don't think Thomas Covenant ever does.

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Books and things.

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Jengie jon

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Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie

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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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I second Zelazny's Amber - it's a time since I read them. I remember hearing someone in the little bookshop I picked such things up in telling another browser how one felt he liked his characters, and people in general.

I never finished Julian May, despite wanting to know how it worked out. In fact, I felt moved to put the copies I had in the bin bag. (Yes, I am a prissy little person with a sense of her own rightness, yada yada.) The reason was that the characters who had good relations with partners they valued as people always ended up dead, while some who used others and used again (sexually, after all, I am a prude) did very well. Or that was the impression I was getting at that point. I didn't want to have to wade through any more squelchy bits. (Why I'm not reading about Westeros, or watching it. There are two sorts of squelch, and it seems to have both - see above.)

Have you tried Katherine Kurtz' Deryni books? (You might want to argue with a medieval world with post-Tridentine church organisation.)

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie

In which category I'd make a special plea for T.H.White's beautiful The Once and Future King. I love the way it starts as a whimsical children's comedy but builds up to a dark, complex retelling of "the Matter of England". Profoundly humane. And the last scene always makes me cry.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Actual answer to the question, part one: High Fantasy.

That's a harder one because its a slipperier concept. I mean its pretty easy to say what "Sword and Sorcery" is but "High Fantasy" move about a bit. So I cheat and use John Clute's defintion: "Fantasies set in Otherworlds, specifically Secondary Worlds, and which deal with matters affecting the destiny of those worlds." (Which is a pity because it means I can't recommend Little Big by John Crowley as it is ostensibly set in this world. even though its very, very good and everyone ought to read it [Biased] Or Alan Garner's books, especially The Weirdstone of Brisingamen and The Moon of Gomrath)

And going by that definition, the one you need to read is The Silmarillion. As well as LOTR of course.

The King of Elfland's Daughter by Lord Dunsany (and lots of his lovely short stories)

China Mieville's New Crobuzon books, Perdido Street Station, and The Scar, and Iron Council. You won't find any elves and magic wands in them (though there are telephones and trade unions), and they are very dark (though there is a sort of happy ending). but they certainly fit the definition and they are very good.

Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books. As I said before some of the earlier ones are Sword-and-Sorecery (On the surface at least) but the later ones are High Fantasy, or SF in the clothes of High Fantasy. Almost anything by Mary Gentle. (Though Grunts is very atypical of her and a bit gory. Well, most of her books are a bit gory, but not in the same way. Also SF dressed up as fantasy, and some of the more recent ones go on to dress up as historical fiction, but they are all deeply SF at the core. The best one might be Ash. CJ Cherryh's fantasies (most of her books are hard SF or space opera and I like them very much) and some of Liz Williams's books fit here too.

MIchael Moorcock. Again.

Roger Zelazny's Amber series. Maybe a bit too street-level to be "High", but. Also his Lord of Light which is very clearly SF but feels like fantasy. And is probably his best book.

The Grandmother of them all: Morte D'Arthur and all the other Arthurian romances. As others have said.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I never finished Julian May [...] The reason was that the characters who had good relations with partners they valued as people always ended up dead, while some who used others and used again (sexually, after all, I am a prude) did very well. Or that was the impression I was getting at that point.

Actually it all comes right at the end. Or rather the begining. Its sort of circular. With a huge dose of Deus ex machina But you have to read all eight books. And it gets quite obvious why the last one is called Magnificat. I would hesitate to say that its worth it...

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
basso

Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, starting with "A Game of Thrones." Frustrating though in that the series isn't finished yet.

I greatly enjoyed the first couple of books in the series. I was starting to find it hard to keep track of all the characters when I picked the latest one up in the library, and muttered about halfway through, "What about <character>?" I glanced ahead at the back of the book, where I discovered that G. Railroad had only managed to squeeze half of his story into 700 or so pages, said, "He's turned into Robert Jordan!", set the book aside unfinished, and haven't been back. I doubt I'll return.
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yes - I just skip those passages on re-reading and focus on the interesting bits. Probably the best way of handling it: the Covenant stories are good but can leave you feeling a bit queasy, and they're never a cheerful, light read.

Btw I could never get on with Robin Hobb's books. One was fine, but after that they seemed much of a muchness. I couldn't take anyone called Kettricken seriously as a princess, either.

I really enjoyed the Darkover novels by Marion Zimmer Bradley. They're fantasy, but not really sword-and-sorcery, more tending towards the sci-fi end of the spectrum.

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Vulpior

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# 12744

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I second Trudy's recommendation of Robin Hobb. They are excellent books in which the most unexpected turns cause irrevocable changes in the fortunes of the characters; 'things will never e the same' type twists.

And I love Eddings and his characters (or their characters, as his wife was a collaborator though not credited in the earlier books). Read the Belgariad (Pawn of Prophecy onwards) and if you like the world and the characters, go on to read the Mallorean. If you're not so fussed, but you like the writing, jump to the Elenium; it's a completely different world with new characters including church knights and the politics of electing a new Archprelate!

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Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
If you're not so fussed, but you like the writing, jump to the Elenium; it's a completely different world with new characters including church knights and the politics of electing a new Archprelate!

But still basically the same story, in which a group of suspiciously-familiar characters have to walk across the known world to rescue a magic blue rock and kill a god. And oh look, in the second set of books in each series, there's an evil red rock.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Kitten
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If you haven't read any of Mark Chadbourn's amazing post-apocalyptic novels, I'd recommend you do so. They're dark, but they'll keep you gripped. Try The Age of Misrule, and see what you think.

I second this recommendation, although I'd suggest reading his Scissorman before the age of misrule

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Maius intra qua extra

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Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.
YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.
YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!
I started out as a fifteen year old Tolkien nut, havent changed much since and when I first read the Thomas Covenant books was so deeply disappointed at the flimsiness of them and TC's wilful disbelief that I rarely read other fantasy fiction after that. My cousin and alterego in Canada is a huge fantasy fan but after Quenya and Sindarin there was nothing in the modern genre attracted my interest. Still, I really love William Morris and George MacDonald, but that's my Lewisian side showing.

Once and Future King is just bloody brilliant though. Makes me want to go back to the west of England, find a decent pub in Somerset with accommodation for a week and hole up with a supply of pipe tobacco, decent beer, agreeable literate female company and walks and reading it again inbetween.

[ 23. March 2013, 00:14: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]

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Older, bearded (but no wiser)

Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!

Get to the back of the queue.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
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I would rate N K Jemisin's The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms pretty highly. For some reason it starts off feeling very clichéd and pretentious, and then suddenly it morphs into something a lot more original and clever.

And another vote for Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun. Very weird and evocative. And, though not high fantasy, Gene Wolfe's The Fifth Head of Cerberus is definitely a candidate in my eyes for Best Science Fiction Book Ever.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Alaric the Goth
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I am first and foremost a Tolkien reader when it comes to fantasy. I have read 'The Lord of the Rings' at least nine times and 'The Hobbit' several times. I actually started reading JRRT with 'The Silmarillion' and it didn't put me off! Far from it! I liked Christopher Tolkien putting the Turin stories into one book: 'The Children of Hurin'.

I have read Julian May's books that Ken recommends. I read a friend's copies back in the 1980s. I bought and re-read the first 'The Many Coloured Land' recently but have had difficulty finding the rest of the series in both new and second hand bookshops.

I did read the 'Thomas Covenant' books when I was about 17, as a friend recommended them. I quite liked them, but didn't think by any means they were 'better than Tolkien' (which this friend thought they were - I don't think he'd actually read any Tolkien! [Disappointed] ) I shall probably not re-read them.

I also like Dunsany's 'The King of Elfland's Daughter' (see Ken above) and have read some William Morris ('The Wood Beyond the World' stand out).

I have bought and read loads of Terry Pratchett. I was reading him before he was famous, back in 1985, and laughing out loud on public transport!

[ 23. March 2013, 10:47: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]

Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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It's been a while since I read them, but I used to like Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World trilogy. (Metalsmith makes magic items and fights ice gods, replaying a couple of other smith legends as he does so.)

Poul Anderson's Broken Sword is good: if you can find it read the revised version.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
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If I might...

Julian May has just been released with new covers: I may get them all, just so I can replace my very worn copies.

Poul Anderson's Broken Sword is excellent.

Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle (read the first three of the 5).

If you're up some really very dark sword-and-sorcery, I can highly recommend Karl Edward Wagner's Kane books.

Two current writers (who are also friends, but their writing is excellent) Juliet McKenna, and Chaz Brenchley's Outremer series (UK 3 books, US 6 books - the same books as the UK, just cut in half each time).

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Forward the New Republic

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ArachnidinElmet
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For a more graphic take on sword and sorcery (in both senses of the word), try the Slaine collected editions, created by Pat Mills. Celtic mysticism, extreme gore and beautiful illustration especially by Simon Bisley (although I'm not sure of some of the later editions, 're-inked' by computer, they look a bit shiny for 4th century Ireland.)

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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka

Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
ken
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# 2460

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Yrs! Bisley! Slaine! 2000!

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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Poul Anderson did a trilogy about the lost land of Ys and I can't remember the names - how awful, but I liked them.

And Alan Garner has just had published a completion to the Weirdstone and Gomrath, which I have but have not started yet. Boneland

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Antisocial Alto
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It's not high fantasy, exactly, because it's not really Epic and mostly follows a few main characters, but Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion series is awesome. (She is best known for a SF series, the Vorkosigan Saga, but has been branching out into fantasy in recent years.)

The world-building is really interesting, especially around the religion of Chalion. She's also great at both character and plot, which you don't always get in SF and fantasy.

Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
doubtingthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie

In which category I'd make a special plea for T.H.White's beautiful The Once and Future King. I love the way it starts as a whimsical children's comedy but builds up to a dark, complex retelling of "the Matter of England". Profoundly humane. And the last scene always makes me cry.
To which I would like to add Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy (The Crystal Cave/The Hollow Hill/The Last Enchantment) and the (post-Merlin) sequel The Wicked Day. Not so much world- as history-building, but with enough magic for it to qualify as Sword and sort-of-Sorcery.

Without the Sword element, Diana Wynne Jones's novels are worth a read, even though many are aimed at (or at least marketed for) a junior audience. The world-building often comes in the form of parallel universes, which is why some people (and publishers) refer to them as SF, but most are really fantasy. My favourite is Deep Secret.
Once you know some straight S&S-type fantasy, I can also recommend her parody The Dark Lord of Derkholm.

Posts: 266 | From: A Small Island | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
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Someone mentioned Patricia McKillip, and certainly her Riddle-Master trilogy is among the best traditional high fantasy works. R.A. MacAvoy's A Trio For Lute is another. And Joy Chant's The Grey Mane of Morning is yet another.

I mostly read urban fantasy these days (and I'm picky about that) because the imaginary world fantasies all seem so derivative. But I keep hoping.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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