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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Historical fiction recommendations
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Slight tangent re historical inaccuracy: Trudy mentioned Ken Follett, and we're getting a TV dramatisation of World without End at the moment. In the first episode they had Edward II being buried in the wrong cathedral; there's really no excuse for making mistakes like that. Anyone who watched the abomination that was The Tudors will know what I mean. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Sorry. Rant over, and fluffiness restored. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I can't let this go without comment: not only was Edward buried in the wrong cathedral, Roger Mortimer was flung from a balcony, if memory serves... and I was going to list other glaring inaccuracies but my brain has wiped them all out in a fit of horror. Oh yes, my favourite nitpicking bleurch which I'm always banging on about these days: long dangly earrings! Medieval ladies (yes, I'm looking at you too, the cast of The White Queen trailer), please do not wear them ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) !
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
The other very readable author is Edward Rutherford who takes a great city, for example New York or London, and follows the history of that city from its foundation to the present day.
I tried reading Dublin but got quickly put off when he wheeled in some vikings complete with horned helmets! As any fule knows, that's a ridiculous myth - no professional warrior would wear anything so impractical.
If a writer can't get basic historical facts right I worry what else they're making up. I don't mind fiction, but if I'm reading historical fiction, I have to insist the history's right.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Of course, you don't have to stick to the UK/Europe.
Try Gore Vidal: Washington DC, Burr, 1876, Lincoln and Empire are all good reads and fairly accurate in setting.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Just remembered: if you want a good laugh Gyles Brandreth has written a series of novels in which Oscar Wilde and his friend Arthur Conan Doyle solve murder mysteries! Yes, they are as daft as they sound, and meticulously researched. Very enjoyable.
Then don't forget Willie Rushton's WG Grace's Last Case, which hardly counts as historical fiction but is a very good and highly allusive laugh.
Just read Umberto Eco's The Prague Cemetery, too, about the forging of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which Eco says is carefully researched (but you cvan never be sure whether he's just being post-modernist there).
by the way, slight tangent, but the Eco book reminded me of a kids' novel I enjoyed when I was about 10, I suppose (mid-late 70s), set in mid-C19 northern Italy. I think it involved the Orsini bomb plot and there was a revolutionary who was, or pretended to be, a pencil seller from Ancona. But that's all that I remember about it. Does it ring bells with anyone?
[ 03. June 2013, 13:57: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Rosemary Sutcliffe has already been mentioned. I remember watching a dramatisation of "Eagle of the Ninth" as a unday afternoon serial many years ago. I was extremely pleased to pick up the trilogy in one hardback in a library sale, and found it very readable!
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I had to look this up because it's been so long …
'Vespers in Vienna' by Bruce Marshall is a good novel set in post-WW2 occupied Vienna. Plot involves the Allies repatriating refugees, some of whom don't want to go back home.
Lead character IIRC is a British colonel, dealing with a Russian refugee ballerina. Much of the action takes place in the convent where the dancer is hiding.
It was filmed as 'The Red Danube' with a star-quality cast.
It's been years since I've seen it, but I still chuckle over the colonel instructing the mother superior in the proper procedure for making tea.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Palimpsest: And when you're done with The Tale of Gengi
Well, I think I can read it a bit faster than I said before ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I'm looking up reviews on the net of various books that are suggested on this thread.
quote:
Pine Marten: In the first episode they had Edward II being buried in the wrong cathedral;
I'm sure that his corpse won't mind
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
May I point out that Rosemary Sutcliffe has quite a bit of pre-Roman stuff!
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) You're absolutely right... how could I have forgotten Sun Horse, Moon Horse !
I forgot to mention Michael Pearce's series of books about the Mamur Zapt (mystery/thrillers set in Edwardian Egypt, depicts tensions between the Egyptians and the British). I started reading them because I couldn't resist a book with the title The Camel of Destruction ; I have sometimes been disappointed by books that do not live up to their titles, but this wasn't one of them.
[ 04. June 2013, 07:43: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old! I lead a discussion about it in the Ship's book group a few years ago and think that it's one of the funniest books ever written.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old!
Historic*? Debatable. Historical**? No. It is a book that was contemporary when it was written.
What we are discussing is books about periods other than the one they were written in.
*= makes history
**= about history
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
An oldie but goodie: if you like your historical novels to be Romantic with a capital R, then D.K. Broster's The Flight of the Heron (1925) is hard to beat. It's set during the Jacobite Rebellion, and tells the story of a friendship between two noble-hearted men on opposite sides of the conflict. It also goes down as one of the most homoerotic books of all time. [Big Grin]
(There are a couple of sequels too, but in my opinion, not worth the bother.)
I second The Flight of the Heron, but would extend the "don't bother" to several of D.K.Broster's other books, particularly "Almond, Wild Almond" which is drivel.
Fiona Watson's "MacBeth: A True Story" is interesting, as she has melded straightforward biography, where sources exist, with well-informed fiction filling in the gaps. The fiction sections are in italics, but the whole thing is seamless. I was surprised at the extent of the non-fiction sections; the fiction exists to bridge gaps in the historical record and make the whole flow.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Rosemary Sutcliffe has already been mentioned. I remember watching a dramatisation of "Eagle of the Ninth" as a unday afternoon serial many years ago. I was extremely pleased to pick up the trilogy in one hardback in a library sale, and found it very readable!
I agree; "The Eagle of the Ninth" is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it as a child. I didn't much like the television series but I thought the film "The Eagle" which is based on the book was good. Also agree about "The Flight of the Heron" - I did quite enjoy the sequels but they're not a patch on the first book. (Sensing a homoerotic theme here. )
"Wolf Hall" is languishing near the bottom of the list on my Kindle... I just couldn't get on with it and life's too short.
I've just purchased, from one of our charity shops, a copy of Alison Weir's "The Six Wives of Henry VIII" which I'm looking forward to reading.
Nen - loves having a book to look forward to.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
I've just remembered a wonderful writer called Norah Lofts. All her novels are very well written and researched, the House at...series in particular, is excellent. It follows the story of a house in Suffolk over the centuries beginning in Saxon times and ending in the early 20C. Some of the characters are loosely linked down the ages.
I'll second Norah Lofts. I think she's one of the best novelists of any stripe, ever. I imagine she's out of print now, with a few bios and "How Far to Bethlehem," probably being the exceptions. If you know any old ladies like me it's worth sneaking into our attics to look for them.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
I've just remembered a wonderful writer called Norah Lofts. All her novels are very well written and researched, the House at...series in particular, is excellent. It follows the story of a house in Suffolk over the centuries beginning in Saxon times and ending in the early 20C. Some of the characters are loosely linked down the ages.
I'll second Norah Lofts. I think she's one of the best novelists of any stripe, ever. I imagine she's out of print now, with a few bios and "How Far to Bethlehem," probably being the exceptions. If you know any old ladies like me it's worth sneaking into our attics to look for them.
If anyone's interested the House series was reprinted by The History Press in 2009.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old!
Historic*? Debatable. Historical**? No. It is a book that was contemporary when it was written.
What we are discussing is books about periods other than the one they were written in.
*= makes history
**= about history
I think I meant hysterical!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
When it comes to historical fiction, no one is better that Patrick O'Brian, and very few even come close: his stories are exciting, his characters vivid, his world so clearly present to the reader! Even if you don't think you're interested in the Napoleonic Wars, you should give his Jack Aubrey/Stephen Maturin novels a try, starting from the beginning with Master and Commander .
Mary Renault is tops for ancient Greece, and like O'Brian she creates a world for the reader to inhabit. I loved her Alexander trilogy--those should also be read in order. (A caveat: don't attempt Funeral Games if you're feeling low. It's one of the goriest novels I've ever finished, although the very end is quite satisfying, as you see one real character and one semi-fictional one finishing up their respective memoirs.)
A recent addition to historical novels set in the ancient world are the books of Gillian Bradshaw. She is especially good at fish-out-of-water situations (Sarmatian cavalryman posted to Roman Britain, Alexandrian Greek businessman tryng to collect a debt in Rome, young Greek skipper trying fit in with the upper level of society). Her Cleopatra's Heir is an alternate history, in which she imagines what might have happened if young Ptolemy Caesar had escaped the assassins Octavian had sent after him. How fortunate for the young man that his mom had required him to learn Egyptian!
P.F. Chisholm has written five mysteries featuring a real historical figure, Sir Robert Carey, nephew of the first Queen Elizabeth. As Sir Robert takes on the duty of keeping the peace in the uncivilized northern border area of England, these are Tudor-era stories with a difference. He does come back to London for the latest two installments, but even so I think readers tired of the Tudor period will find the stories delightfully different. (Will Shakespeare has a role.) Sir Robert's sophisticated, urbane, and debt-ridden character is complemented by his rough-and-ready Land Sergeant.
P.F. Chisholm also writes "straight" historical fiction (lots of plots and spies) as Patricia Finney.
Finally, another mystery writer sets her stories in 1490s Glasgow--this is Pat McIntosh. Her main character is a young notary (previously intended for the priesthood). When he investigates a crime, the whole family gets involved--uncle, sisters, fiance, father-in-law, even the dog!
Happy reading!
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Oops, that should have read: recent additions to historical novels set in the ancient world are the books of Gillian Bradshaw.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can't remember the exact title, but it's a biography told in story style of John tradascant, Robert Cecil's gardener.
Haven't read the whole thread - someone else may have mentioned it - the book is called 'Earthly Joys' and it's by Phillippa Gregory. (and yes, very good).
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Personally I can't stand Patrick O'Brien's style and prefer C S Forester's Hornblower series, which may be less politically correct (having been written about fifty years or so earlier) but reads less like an academic lecture on Some Aspects of the British Navy During The Early Nineteenth Century. Patrick O'Brien tells you the names of all the ropes in the rigging; C S Forester mentions them in passing while Hornblower is hanging upside-down trying to reef the sails in the middle of a storm.
Oddly enough Naomi Novik's Temeraire series, though set in an alternate timeline with added dragons, has an authentic 'nineteenth-century' feel to it...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Something you could try. It's not fiction, but it was written in its own time and is both not very well known and set in an unfamiliar setting, is the Alexiad by Anna Comnena. It's available in Penguin, but there are also downloadable versions. She was the daughter of the Greek Emperor Alexius (1056-1118).
Another possibility is Conan Doyle's Brigadier Gerard stories. The Brigadier was a French officer in Napoleon's army. Some of them are available on Gutenberg.
Also quite entertaining is that The 39 Steps is not the only John Buchan 1st World War novel that features Richard Hannay. There is a series of them. They weren't written as historical fiction. They were written at the time. But they have sort of become so. Again, try Project Gutenberg.
Another option is to try Scott. Nobody reads him much these days but 100 years ago he was still sufficiently popular that the North British Railway named a lot of its engines after Scott characters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Le Roc's post on the Reading thread:
Preferably not books of the kind "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security."
Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."
Two that come to mind featuring strong, smart women without anachronistic girl-power stuff:
Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague
Geraldine Brooks
The Heretic's Daughter(regarding the Salem witch trials)
Kathleen Kent
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Twilight: Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."
Indeed! Give me books that have a female protagonist and portray her as a normal human being any time! I think I already spotted some on this thread. (So much to choose from )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Personally I can't stand Patrick O'Brien's style and prefer C S Forester's Hornblower series, which may be less politically correct (having been written about fifty years or so earlier) but reads less like an academic lecture on Some Aspects of the British Navy During The Early Nineteenth Century. Patrick O'Brien tells you the names of all the ropes in the rigging; C S Forester mentions them in passing while Hornblower is hanging upside-down trying to reef the sails in the middle of a storm.
Yes, I'd agree with that. I've read pretty much all of both series a few times, and I still enjoy both, depending on what kind of mood I'm in- but if I had to choose one it'd be Hornblower. There can be something a bit archly precious about O'Brien, and Forester was a better storyteller.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Le Roc's post on the Reading thread:
Preferably not books of the kind "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security."
Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."
Two that come to mind featuring strong, smart women without anachronistic girl-power stuff:
Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague
Geraldine Brooks
The Heretic's Daughter(regarding the Salem witch trials)
Kathleen Kent
So agree, Twilight. And another couple of excellent writers are firstly, Katherine McMahon, I liked The Alchemist's Daughter best, but everything she has written is good including a novel about Mary Ward who founded the IBVM.
Also strongly recommend As Meat Loves Salt by Maria McCann, set in the English Civil War.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Rosemary Sutcliffe has already been mentioned. I remember watching a dramatisation of "Eagle of the Ninth" as a unday afternoon serial many years ago. I was extremely pleased to pick up the trilogy in one hardback in a library sale, and found it very readable!
I agree; "The Eagle of the Ninth" is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it as a child.
Great books. I read them when I ws a kid. In the wrong order, I think I read Lantern Bearers first, but that wasn't a problem. There are some very persistent images in those books.
More recently, I've just read Black Opera by Mary Gentle. Like almost all her books its good. (Declaration of bias: I know Mary slightly - though we haven't met for some years or so - and we used to write reviews for the same magazine)
Strictly speaking its SF, but SF set in the past (in this case 1820s Naples). And it is most certainly not one of those "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security" books! Not by a long way. Neither are her other sort-of-historical novels Ash (Set in modern France and early-modern Burgundy) and 1610 (go on, guess what year that's about...) All very good, and very worth reading. Ash is not a traditional historical novel but it is about history in a way, how history is produced and remembered. And its bloody good. (with emphasis on the "bloody")
A couple of warnings: they are quite long novels (Ash in particular, which might be the best of them, is huge and as with some other long novels, certain publishers have tried to cash in by splitting it into multiple volumes - its much better to read it as one volume if you can, if only because cheaper. Also there is quite a lot of rather graphically described violence, and a certain amount of sex on stage. And many of the main characters have religious or philosophical opinions, or make, er, "lifestyle choices", that might not go down well in church on a Sunday morning. Its more George RR Martin than Norah Lofts. (not that there is anything wrong with Norah Lofts - she's deeply unfashionable just now, and in some ways very dated, but those few of her books that I've read were worth it).
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If reading any modern authors do bear in mind what Egeria said; a lot of them don't bother to do much research and those that do may ignore historical reality in order to produce a commercially viable story, so what you are actually reading is a story about modern characters in fancy dress.
While the times Mary set those stories in aren't exactly the same as the historical ones (no spoilers!) her research is good (and only shows if you know where to look). Mary had an MA in 17th-century history and she went back to university to get another one in War Studies before she wrote Ash. If you want to know about the arms and armour of 15th-century mercenary companies, its all in there.
What other books?
An Instance of the Fingerpost by Iain Pears. Unreliable Narrators R Us. Brilliant book. Gets the feel of the period.
The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco (getting philosopical here) and Peter Ackroyd's Hawksmoor (perhaps another fantasy-posing-as-historical) are good books but suffer from being modern people in the clothes of a previous age - that's sort of part of the joke of them.
And talking of Norah Lofts being unfashionable, James Michener is also pretty much out of fashion these days, but his huge blockbusters are a Good Read, if a bit sentimental and very much of their time (1940s-1960s) The Source might be the best known. Another rather dated book that's worth looking at: The wind that shakes the barley by James Barke. A fictionalisation of the life of Robert Burns.
And why not go back to the fount and origin of historical fiction, Walter Scott and Alexander Dumas? Dumas's books are also huge and often abridged in translation, especially when the translations are aimed at children. I thought I had read The Count of Monte Cristo but when I got hold of a translation of the whole thing, I realised that I hadn't. I'd missed out on a lot of the politics, and also the bit where Edmond Dantes is praised as the best dope-dealer in all Europe. Really, its in there - if your copy misses the chapter with the hallucinatory drugs and the mariajuana, someone has decided to cut it out on your behalf! And there is some really unpleasant sex and violence in the later parts of the Musketeers series. Much darker than the films. Hmmmm, I'm not selling these well, am I?
[ 05. June 2013, 18:18: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Patrick O'Brien tells you the names of all the ropes in the rigging; C S Forester mentions them in passing while Hornblower is hanging upside-down trying to reef the sails in the middle of a storm.
Yep. Apologies to the O'Brien fans out there, but I found the characters a bit too nice. The Hornblower books seemed a bit more realistic - the cloying Maria, the evil Simpson, the embittered Captain Keene, etc. Life on an 18th century warship was no bed of roses and Hornblower's being driven to contemplate suicide by bullying and homesickness strikes a convincing note. Having said that, some people do find him annoying as a character.
Let's try to keep the thread to historical fiction in the sense that it's fiction written in one era set in a previous era. It gets a bit too broad and tangential otherwise.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
<snip> not that there is anything wrong with Norah Lofts - she's deeply unfashionable just now, and in some ways very dated,
I'm curious about this. What makes her unfashionable and dated? I can understand that criticism when it's used about contemporary fiction but not so much when discussing books set several centuries ago.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
We all view history from within the context of our own times. Mention has been made already of the kind of books that simply transpose modern (and anachronistic) characters/attitudes to the past. Sort of written equivalent of Julie Christie being a Victorian countrydweller in mascara and white lipstick.
Better writers will do more convincing recreations - but nevertheless incorporate assumptions which are so integral to the current worldview of both themselves and their contemporary readers, that they don't 'show' - at the time. But 20 or 30 years on, do. Conan Doyle's medieval knight errants seem indisputably Edwardian gentlemen now...
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
And if you want another example, you could compare the portrayal of the Jewish characters in Ivanhoe (Sir Walter Scott) with those in The Sempster's Tale by Margaret Frazer. The periods of history they describe are several hundred years apart, so the condition of Jews would not have been exactly the same; but the attitude towards the Jewish characters is completely different. In the first book, having a sexual relationship with the (beautiful, modest, intelligent, honourable) Jewish maiden is completely out of the question (and Bois-Guilbert's abduction of her is a sign of utter moral depravity); even publicly acknowledging her beauty is unwise. In the second, having a sexual relationship with the (brave, handsome, intelligent, honourable) Jewish man is unwise, perhaps foolhardy, but completely understandable; the fact that the couple are separated by religion and culture is a tragedy. Both books have sympathetic Jewish characters but the way they are presented is completely different.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
It's so hard, in writing historical fiction, to get that right -- that business of attitudes and underlying beliefs that are true to the culture you're writing about, rather than importing your own. It's something that really strikes you when you read a novel written in a particular time period, in contrast to a novel written later ABOUT that time period. (The Scott/Frazer comparison above is a good example of that). One of the biggest things, I think, are the prejudices that characters in the past took for granted that would horrify us today -- their casual racism, sexism and classism, and the fondness of otherwise admirable people for schemes like eugenics.
I remember being struck when I read Gaskell's North and South that a modern writer, creating a character as sympathetic as her main character is in the novel, would probably not have put in her horror of having to mingle with what she calls "shoppy people."
I think religion is another thing writers tend to get wrong -- usually underestimating how religious people were in the past and to what an extent deeply-held religious beliefs guided their choices.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I agree with all three above posts, in fact superimposing todays attitudes on characters living hundreds of years ago is a pet peeve of mine -- but I wouldn't call those books "unfashionable." In fact I might call them, "fashionable," as a criticism, meaning the writer was trying too hard to please young readers of today with feisty heroines and racist villains. Maybe I need an example of what Norah Lofts has done wrong exactly to make her unreadable today.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history and Harnett's were mainly set in the Middle Ages. They both seem very out of fashion now,which is a shame as they were well researched, and in Trease's in particular, well written. Harnett's came with little line drawings of rosaries and such in case you weren't sure what they were.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
I love historical fiction. Seconding "An Instance of the Fingerpost" by Iain Pears, "Arthur and George" by Julian Barnes and "Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague" Geraldine Brooks - but don't read the last if you're feeling blue! Very harsh in places.
I recently read "Creation" by Gore Vidal, a look at Greece, Persia, India and China in the 5th century BC. The hero travels around meeting people like Zoroaster, the Buddha, Lao Tsu, and Confucius, so it's a bit of a crash course comparative religion as well as a fine historical novel.
If anyone likes WW2 historical fiction, I'd recommend "The Kappillan of Malta" by Nicholas Monsarrat, about a priest in wartorn Malta. You get a real flavour of the politics of the war and how they really affected people on the ground, as well as a great plot.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Of course, you don't have to stick to the UK/Europe.
Try Gore Vidal: Washington DC, Burr, 1876, Lincoln and Empire are all good reads and fairly accurate in setting.
Gore Vidal goes a little too far to fiction rather than history, and enjoys having his characters poke fun at the recorded history of the period. It's highly entertaining though. His novel 'Creation' was amazing. Following the grandson of Zoroaster as he travels the known world meeting Socrates, the Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tsu, and Confucius. It's a crash course in Vidal's ideas about comparative religion. Reminds me of Robert Graves.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
May have missed any mention by others, and it does relate to the Tudor period, but we've enjoyed the Matthew Shardlake series written by C J Sansom (first book "Dissolution" features a murder in a monastery). Tudor whodunnits, with lots of vivid historical detail, and an unusual and very sympathetic central character. (Matthew Shardlake is a hunchbacked lawyer).
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Yes, I mentioned his 'Sharpe' series upthread ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) .
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...
Yes, Gooffrey Trease was good. Also his near namesake Henry Treece, who wrote a cracking trilogy about a Viking, following him from boyhood to old(ish) age.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I agree totally about the difficulty of a writer's separating out today's attitudes (and vocabulary!) from the period being written about.
Personal case in point: I am attempting a fictionalized biography of my great-grandmother (born 1840s & lived through the American Civil War) -- fictionalized because I have not much actual history of her. But there's enough to make the skeleton of a good story. But in the US writing about slaves is HARD! It's booby-trapped throughout with still-existing attitudes and prejudices. And you can't have a story set in the South in the 1860s without the slaves -- you'd be missing out many important characters.
But if you get the conversation and attitudes right, you're bound to offend readers all across the spectrum.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...
Yes, Gooffrey Trease was good. Also his near namesake Henry Treece, who wrote a cracking trilogy about a Viking, following him from boyhood to old(ish) age.
Bringing back some good memories here.
My copy of Cynthia Harnett's The Wool Pack got lent out to several visitors. As a child it was one of my favourite books because it was about places that I knew.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...
Yes, Gooffrey Trease was good. Also his near namesake Henry Treece, who wrote a cracking trilogy about a Viking, following him from boyhood to old(ish) age.
Yes, yes, yes!
I also enjoyed "Bran the Bronze-smith" by J. Reason, "They fought for Brigantia", M Rowling, "Keiran (sp?) the Watcher", which I can't trace, and various by Alfred Duggan.
I must check out Norah Lofts.
eta: C.J. Sansom also excellent, of course - I liked "Winter in Madrid" (Spanish Civil War and its aftermath) just as much as the Tudor stuff, though I recognise the OP was looking for books set in much earlier times.
[ 06. June 2013, 19:24: Message edited by: QLib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
For fun, I suggest Leonard Wibberley's "Beware of the Mouse".
I also recommend the novels by Charles Todd about Bess Crawford.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
In the US writing about slaves is HARD! It's booby-trapped throughout with still-existing attitudes and prejudices. And you can't have a story set in the South in the 1860s without the slaves -- you'd be missing out many important characters.
But if you get the conversation and attitudes right, you're bound to offend readers all across the spectrum.
I presume that the difficulty you refer to is experienced by white American authors rather than black ones?
The British engaged enthusiastically in the slave trade, of course, but because it happened far away, (white) British people don't feel that slavery was a foundational part of their national identity. It's just one part of the colonial story, and it competes for novelistic attention with Africa and India. But I can recommend two good novels about the slave trade by (white) British authors: Philippa Gregory, 'A Respectable Trade' and even better, Barry Unsworth, 'Sacred Hunger', which won the Booker Prize. There's a sequel, 'The Quality of Mercy', which I haven't read. I also intend to have a look a recent novel by Lloyd Shepherd, 'The English Monster', which apparently explores the beginning of the English/British slave trade in a magic realist fashion.
Black British and Caribbean authors have a different relationship with this history, of course, and have devoted more attention to it. Let me recommend some relevant novels for anyone who's interested:
Marlon James, The Book of Night Women
S. I. Martin, Incomparable World
Caryl Phillips, Cambridge
David Dabydeen, A Harlot's Progress
Fred D'Aguiar, Feeding the Ghosts
Lawrence Hill, The Book of Negroes (The author is Canadian, and the action moves from Africa - America - Canada - England.)
I can't recommend Andrea Levy's famous bestseller, The Long Song because I haven't read it yet. Has anyone else enjoyed it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Yes, I've read The Long Somg and thought it was very good.
Toni Morrison's Beloved is a fantastic book - the best on slavery that I know, though I admit I haven't read Sacred Hunger. I also thought Gilead by Marilyn Robinson was terrific. I find Philippa Gregory a bit middle-of-the-road.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I mentioned Lawrence Hill's The Book of Negroes earlier in this thread but I'll second the mention of it among books that do an excellent job of dealing slavery and race issues. I'd like to check out Sacred Hunger too.
Some of the historical fiction fans here might be interested in this vlog of mine in which I raise some questions about accuracy in historical fiction, using an (excellent, even though I disagree with his approach to history) book by a local author as an example (Wayne Johnson, The Colony of Unrequited Dreams -- on the off chance anyone's interested in Newfoundland history that's not particularly historically accurate but VERY well-written).
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
QLib
I read Beloved a long time ago, and if I remember rightly I was impressed by it. However, because of my own ancestry and interests I lean more towards explorations of Caribbean rather than American slavery. I do read about both, but I regret the tendency to see the experiences of the American South as normative for slavery throughout the Americas. We need to hear a diversity stories about slavery. In that vein I'd recommend some of the historical novels of the Guadeloupean author Maryse Condé, such as I, Tituba, Black Witch of Salem, and Windward Heights (which is a Caribbean retelling of Wuthering Heights). Although she writes in French, most of her work has been translated by her English husband.
Phillipa Gregory is a middlebrow, bestselling author, but I think it's great that someone with her profile deems it worthwhile to write about the slave trade, and I'm impressed that in her novel A Respectable Trade she brings this history to the streets of 18th c. England rather than sticking to the more commonplace African/Caribbean/American settings. It's not a perfect novel, but it's well worth reading if you want to go beyond cruelty on cotton or sugar plantations. Sacred Hunger goes beyond this too, but in a very different way. It's a much more literary novel; but both of these books require a certain suspension of disbelief, the latter probably more than the former.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Anya Seton, who also wrote some great novels, is also difficult to get now, but "Katherine", set in Chaucer's day about the woman who had a long on and off affair with John of Gaunt, is a really good read.
Agreed. Another terrific Anya Seton novel is "Avalon", set in Anglo-Saxon England. I read in high school and never forgot it. Re-read it as an adult; it still holds up.
Norah Lofts also wrote some excellent historical novels. One I really liked was "Hester Roon". Set in the 18th century, the story moves from England to the West Indies, with an intelligent and enigmatic heroine at the center.
As someone else wrote, the Thomas Cromwell novels ("Wolf Hall" and "Bring Up the Bodies") by Hilary Mantel are obvious choices.
Pat Barker's trilogy of novels about WWI are superb; I especially recommend the first one, "Regeneration".
Alan Furth's extremely atmospheric novels about intrigue in pre-WWII Europe are wonderful. My favorite is the first one I read, called "The Polish Officer".
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
I have to respond to the derogatory comments about Patrick O'Brian's novels. The characters are "too nice"! What about Captain Harte, "that red-faced son of a blue French fart"? Slimy Mr. Canning? And the dreadful, dreadful Mrs. Williams, the mother-in-law from Hell?
After reading O'Brian, I find Forrester's prose dry and colorless. And Hornblower himself is a bit of a cardboard character. He's so painfully self-conscious, it's hard to read about him. Yeah, Maria is awful; when I was a teenager reading these books for the first time, I found myself saying, "Oh, Horatio, don't do it!"
I don't get the comment about "political correctness" (which is a pretty meaningless expression usually employed by people who feel it is their "right" to be narrow-minded, uncharitable, and rude); Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin both have their prejudices, and some of the best moments come when they have to rethink them. (As Jack does when he unthinkingly makes an anti-Catholic remark, and then remembers that he's speaking to a Catholic...)
As for the technical side of O'Brian's work, he does a very good job of having the rigging etc. explained to Stephen, one of nature's landlubbers. And if you're not in the mood for a lot of nautical detail, you can skim those parts and still enjoy the story.
When I'm reading Forrester, I'm always aware that I'm reading a reasonably good historical novel; when I'm reading O'Brian, I'm taking a trip to the early nineteenth century and some fascinating places, and I'm doing it in the company of interesting, complex people.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Phillipa Gregory is a middlebrow, bestselling author, but I think it's great that someone with her profile deems it worthwhile to write about the slave trade, and I'm impressed that in her novel A Respectable Trade she brings this history to the streets of 18th c. England rather than sticking to the more commonplace African/Caribbean/American settings. It's not a perfect novel, but it's well worth reading if you want to go beyond cruelty on cotton or sugar plantations.
I have that and it's quite a read.
On the African-American theme I also have "The African" by Harold Courlander, and I don't know whether Alex Haley's "Roots" counts, but I found both absorbing reads. I'll look out for the others mentioned.
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
I have to respond to the derogatory comments about Patrick O'Brian's novels. The characters are "too nice"! What about Captain Harte, "that red-faced son of a blue French fart"? Slimy Mr. Canning? And the dreadful, dreadful Mrs. Williams, the mother-in-law from Hell?
Maybe I should give them another go, but I actually rather like Hornblower as a character.
quote:
When I'm reading Forrester, I'm always aware that I'm reading a reasonably good historical novel; when I'm reading O'Brian, I'm taking a trip to the early nineteenth century and some fascinating places, and I'm doing it in the company of interesting, complex people.
Ah. For me, it's the other way round as when I read Forrester's novels, they're a bit of an immersion into everyday life in the Napoleonic era, and I couldn't get into O'Brian.
Qlib - I remember "Kieran the Watcher" as well, used to be one of my favourite novels in the school library. I can't remember who wrote it, though.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
I once read a historical novel about Athanasius -- I so wish I could remember what its title and author were -- it was a cracking read.
Was it "The Beacon at Alexandria" by Gillian Bradshaw? I'm pretty sure he plays a major part in that.
I'd also second all the praise for Mary Renault, I remember reading The King Must Die as a teenager and being totally blown away. I still think it's her best, it transports you totally into the ancient Greek/Minoan world.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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