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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hymns and songs that are no longer sung
Try
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Of course, there are verses we don't sing of hymns that we still do. For instance, the "Rich man in his castle" verse from "All things bright and beautiful".

And what about these verses from Wesley's "O for a thousand tongues to sing":

Awake from guilty nature’s sleep,
And Christ shall give you light,
Cast all your sins into the deep,
And wash the Æthiop white.

(Rest available here: scroll down)

Not very PC are they?!!!

The United Methodist Hymnal in the United States has a version of "O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing" with all of the verses included except for the one about the Æthiop. It is sometimes used instead of the standard Methodist version when a very long hymn is needed. Methodists, incidentally, generally sing a version of the hymn with seven verses, rather than the four sung in other traditions.

[Edited to put url in - Ariel, Heaven Host]

[ 12. June 2013, 17:33: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Avila
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).

The new British Methodist hymnbook Singing the Faith has a Kindle version available, though I think it will be bring your own rather than kit wired to the pews. And for those who benefit from changing size, font, colour, background etc it can be a good thing.

Meanwhile hours into da-da-da-daing a tune today I suddenly realised it was the 'Ink is black the page is white' and I hold this thread and its contributors fully responsible!

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"

The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride

I have never heard it sung anywhere else

By contrast he hated "I Vow To Thee, My Country" and always refused to sing it.

I think your housemaster either bowdlerised or depapalised it. The only version I've met starts,

"O God of earth and altar".

Great hymn. I wish it was sung more. But I can see

"Tie in a living tether
The prince and priest and thrall"

fit's modern ideas about as badly as,

"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate."

On "I vow to thee my country", I've said before that I think the line, "And there's another country, I've heard of long ago" is one of the saddest I know.

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Penny S
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Actually, I think the tie in a living tether is a very important concept - pity he used the word thrall, but when one gets the impression the upper ranks are thinking chav, skiver, oik, what's the difference? The living tether does bind us all in it together. But then I do tend to think as a Romantic.
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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time,not many I would think

Shine Jesus Shine is already more than 25 years old
[Razz] I suspect that it, and two or three more of the songs of South East London's finest, will survive.

Lord of the Dance is over fifty - it might be true to say that it has already survived and gone mainstream.

Ken - I have to say I seldom hear Lord of the Dance nowadays...
Lord of the dance is very often chosen for weddings in our little group of churches. I think it is one of the few hymns that many know one that they learnt at school..

[ 12. June 2013, 19:45: Message edited by: Zacchaeus ]

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Percy B
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One of the problems, I have to say, with SOME (not all) of the older hymns that I love is that the language doesnt fit well with modern style.

I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Actually, I think the tie in a living tether is a very important concept - pity he used the word thrall, but when one gets the impression the upper ranks are thinking chav, skiver, oik, what's the difference? The living tether does bind us all in it together. But then I do tend to think as a Romantic.

Yes, quite right. It fits very well with Catholic Social Teaching and thus e.g. Christian Democracy (not that Chesterton was Christian democrat, or even a proto-one).
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Lord of the dance is very often chosen for weddings in our little group of churches. I think it is one of the few hymns that many know one that they learnt at school..

Back in the Seventies there were dark mutterings in some Christian circles that Lord Of The Dance was a cryptic tribute to Shiva.

In that era I seem to remember that Morning Has Broken - which I haven't heard in years - was a popular choice for weddings.

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OddJob
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Two other hymns I recall being poular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:

'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'

or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?

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TurquoiseTastic

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"

The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride

I have never heard it sung anywhere else

By contrast he hated "I Vow To Thee, My Country" and always refused to sing it.

I think your housemaster either bowdlerised or depapalised it. The only version I've met starts,

"O God of earth and altar".

Aargh! Sorry, it was my faulty memory de-papalising it. Perhaps it is my Ulster Protestant subconscious at work.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
... Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...

I certainly hope not. Two really serious theological errors and what I think must be prime candidate for the most repulsive imagery in any hymn.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Two other hymns I recall being popular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:

'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'

or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?

'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull. However, I've never heard it suggested that 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God', is in some way unsuitable, dated or offensive. It would not have occurred to me that it might be. Why?

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:


'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'

Why might it be offensive?
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Mudfrog
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We have all the old militant hymns -
- Onward Christian Soldiers,
- Stand up, Stand up for Jesus,
- Soldiers of Christ Arise,
- Hold the Fort for I am Coming, (stop sniggering at the back!)
- Dare to be a Daniel,
- Soldiers of the Cross Arise (William How)
- The Son of God Goes Forth to War (Reginald Heber)
- Who is on the Lord's Side? (Frances Havergal)
- Fight the Good Fight
- We are Marching on with Shield and Banner Bright (Fanny Crosby)
- Hark, hark my soul, what Warlike Songs are Swelling (Frederick Faber)

We have a lot of Salvation Army war songs too that none of you will know, but the above are all 'church' hymns.
Get a good brass band behind them and you just can't beat it.

There is no PC nonsense in The Salvation Army - no inclusive language, no stripping out the militarism.

Come and Join Us!

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Two other hymns I recall being poular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:

'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'

or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?

We have both of these too - the first is undeniably and unassailably Scriptural. Ten Commandments anybody?

The second is OK if the tune is played at a stately tempo. The words are lovely.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
... Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...

I certainly hope not. Two really serious theological errors and what I think must be prime candidate for the most repulsive imagery in any hymn.
I'd never heard of this hymn before so I had to look it up. I have read it once through - very difficult and dense but it's one of those hymns that refers to a particular time - it's a protest against America's war with Mexico. So maybe not relevant anymore.

Perhaps someone could use it as a protest against any involvement on Afghanistan?


I didn't like it but maybe it was helpful to people living at the time.
I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.

[ 13. June 2013, 05:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Penny S
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That teems with images I don't find at all helpful.

Meanwhile, I've been getting, as an earworm, "Surely my captain may depend on me, though but an armour bearer I may be." Last sung, I think, in the hall out of the back of Radnor Park Congregational Church in Folkestone. For some reason, I very much liked that sort of thing at the age I was then - nine? The sort of romantic militarism that infuses Narnia, and that knight winning his spurs, and children's retelling of the Arthurian legends. It didn't seem to have anything to do with the WWI militarism that my Grandad taught me against.

[ 13. June 2013, 07:11: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.

The first one is the notion that only once in your life do you have to take a key moral decision. Note, that's portrayed as a moral decision, not a spiritual one. Get that right, and you can do what you like the rest of the time. Miss it, and you're done for.

In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?

The second is,
"Toiling up new Calv’ries ever ... "
There is only one calvary.

The repulsive imagery, for any that missed it, is Jesus ascending the Via Dolorosa lit by an avenue of incandescent saints like street lamps,
"By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track".

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.

The first one is the notion that only once in your life do you have to take a key moral decision. Note, that's portrayed as a moral decision, not a spiritual one. Get that right, and you can do what you like the rest of the time. Miss it, and you're done for.

In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?

The second is,
"Toiling up new Calv’ries ever ... "
There is only one calvary.

The repulsive imagery, for any that missed it, is Jesus ascending the Via Dolorosa lit by an avenue of incandescent saints like street lamps,
"By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track".

The first thought I agree with you - though the context reveals The Choice the author is referring to.

The second? Hmm, yes we know there is only one Calvary but do we not all have our own cross to bear, our own Calvary where we put to death the old flesh?

Here is an example from our song book that speaks of a personal Calvary:


How can I better serve thee, Lord?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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la vie en rouge
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This thread has reminded me of all those late 90s/early noughties praise songs that were sung with deep earnestness at just about every CU meeting of my entire student career. Over the Mountains and the Sea (aka "we've been singing this song forever"), Heart of Worship, Purify my Heart... there were loads of them that I haven't heard for ages. I don't think they were bad songs, as such, but they got done to death at the time. Maybe some of them will be back at some point.

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North East Quine

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I haven't heard "Jesus wants me as a Sunbeam" for years. Nor "Jesus bids us shine."
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?


Um, the growing crisis over slavery in the USA and its territories, actually- the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell. Does this mean that we should still be singing it today? Not necessarily. Does this mean that in its context it was 'grandiloquent nonsense'? Well this was a very big question at the time and one which - even apart from the moral issues of slavery itself- would have huge consequences for the kind of country the USA was going to be. So I think I wouldn't dismiss it, in its time and context, quite so casually as Enoch seems to do.
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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
..the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell.

Who talked only to the Cabots, who talked only to God.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...

If that Unitarian tosh must be sung, it should be to Ton-y-Botel.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Percy B
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Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words. The tune was fun (EBENEZER - I think is what we sung it too). As I think back my memory of it is not so much the precise words (but I do remeber the burning martyrs) - it was more the power and solemnity of it.

Another on the list I pointed to which I know - I have to confess to not knowing the others - is 'A man there lived in Galilee' but to tell the truth I thought that was still widely used. Its interesting how we have differing perspectives on these hymns.

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Mary, a priest??

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Rosa Winkel

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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"

The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride

I have never heard it sung anywhere else

Iron Maiden included that verse in their song Revelations. Apart from that I've never heard it.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words.

I have only ever banned two hymns from the liturgy; that one and Dearmer's "Sing praise to God who spoke through man," which babbles on about Socrates and Plato and a number of (unnamed) poets and artists. "Sing praise to God who reigns above" is a much better hymn for the same tune (Elbing).

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
This thread has reminded me of all those late 90s/early noughties praise songs that were sung with deep earnestness at just about every CU meeting of my entire student career. Over the Mountains and the Sea (aka "we've been singing this song forever"), Heart of Worship, Purify my Heart... there were loads of them that I haven't heard for ages. I don't think they were bad songs, as such, but they got done to death at the time. Maybe some of them will be back at some point.

Ah, we were students at roughly the same time! However, I only became a Christian just before starting university so all those songs were brand new for me, even if they'd been done to death for the previous few years. This also explains why I love 'Shine Jesus Shine', despite it being done to death in the 80s...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Uncle Pete

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
This also explains why I love 'Shine Jesus Shine', despite it being done to death in the 80s...

And for decades after. [Big Grin]

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Even more so than I was before

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words.

I have only ever banned two hymns from the liturgy; that one and Dearmer's "Sing praise to God who spoke through man," which babbles on about Socrates and Plato and a number of (unnamed) poets and artists. "Sing praise to God who reigns above" is a much better hymn for the same tune (Elbing).
And I banned 'There is a green hill' for PSA.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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OddJob
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@ Enoch & SvitlanaV2
I didn't realise that blazing abroad was taken from a Psalm, but instead read it as a relic of colonialism.

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Chamois
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Originally posted by Pine Marten:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Mebbe. Mebbe no. I can think of other reasons to dislike projected text besides feelings of cultural superiority.

I find it difficult to read (distance/sight lines/back lighting). Also, with a book in my hand, I can see the entire text (ooh, only another six verses/ tricky bit coming up etc).

Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).

Firenze is quite right. Add tall heads in the way, the words being out of focus, or indeed as happened at a recent memorial service, the wrong verses being projected to the correct ones in the booklet, so people were singing different things.

These are all excellent points, but I was just expressing a personal preference. Personal preferences are allowed in Heaven!

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And I banned 'There is a green hill' for PSA.

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

Though its fun to imagine the good folk of Bristol having secret underground hymn-singing sessions where they can enjoy their old favourites away from the censorious preacher.

Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...

If that Unitarian tosh must be sung, it should be to Ton-y-Botel.
The hymn seems to be a short extract from a much longer poem apparently printed here Its clearly a political argument, not a hymn.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Chamois
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Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.

But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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Chamois
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# 16204

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originally posted by Odd Job:
quote:
I didn't realise that blazing abroad was taken from a Psalm, but instead read it as a relic of colonialism
Now if we did sing the sections of the psalm that deal with the conquest of Canaan (assuming Milton actually included them in his translation) that really WOULD be a relic of colonialism!

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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Garasu
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# 17152

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

Don't hold back!

Actually. Sorry, there may be all sorts of reasons for disliking it but "neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping ... blasphemy"?

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
squamous

Covered in scales?

This is only the second time I have ever come across anyone using it.

The other was in Fishes' Heaven: "...squamous, omnipotent and kind.." (I think; I am quoting from memory).

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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.

But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?

According to 'The Hymnal 1940 Companion' 18 of Milton's stanzas have been omitted, including
'And large-limb'd Og he did subdue
With all his over-hardy crew.' [Killing me]
There is also:
'The ruddy waves he cleft in twain,
Of the Erythraean main. (which would be quite a tongue-twister)
The 'Companion' notes that Milton crafted this translation at age 18.

The tune given in The Hymnal 1940 and The Hymnal 1982 is 'Monkland,' which jogs along merrily.

--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?


Um, the growing crisis over slavery in the USA and its territories, actually- the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell. Does this mean that we should still be singing it today? Not necessarily. Does this mean that in its context it was 'grandiloquent nonsense'? Well this was a very big question at the time and one which - even apart from the moral issues of slavery itself- would have huge consequences for the kind of country the USA was going to be. So I think I wouldn't dismiss it, in its time and context, quite so casually as Enoch seems to do.
Something which was puzzling me, was that bearing in mind there was a pending issue on which 'where to side with truth was noble', it seems a bit wilfully blind to write in those terms of a war with Mexico. Was it that well known as a moral issue even then, yet alone now? It doesn't even seem to be the one John Wayne fought in.

It may be though that this simply reveals that I don't know much about US history.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amika
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# 15785

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
<snip>

We have a lot of Salvation Army war songs too that none of you will know, but the above are all 'church' hymns.
Get a good brass band behind them and you just can't beat it.

There is no PC nonsense in The Salvation Army - no inclusive language, no stripping out the militarism.

Come and Join Us!

I spent a while attending Salvation Army Sunday School as a child and I've never forgotten my favourite Army hymn, which was not warlike at all. It was:

By the pathway of duty flows the river of God's grace...

I still sing it occasionally to this day.

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vw man
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# 13951

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As a lot of you have writen about songs from your time as children I will join you
my favroite was "I will make you fishers of men" if my sister was a ship mate she would would put down" I am H. A. P. P. Y ,".
I wwould not dare say "i bet no one sings that any more" as some one is bound to say "we still do [Biased]

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
My favroite was "I will make you fishers of men"

aka "I will make you vicious old men" [Big Grin]
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...Something which was puzzling me, was that bearing in mind there was a pending issue on which 'where to side with truth was noble', it seems a bit wilfully blind to write in those terms of a war with Mexico. Was it that well known as a moral issue even then, yet alone now? It doesn't even seem to be the one John Wayne fought in.

It may be though that this simply reveals that I don't know much about US history.

Well, US shipmates may correct me on this, but the Mexican war (which was controversial because it was seen by opponents of the President- Polk, I think- as a war of aggression and expansion, which it was) tied up to the slavery issue because it raised the question of whether slavery would be allowed in the new territories which the USA was seeking (ulitmately successfully) to acquire. AIUI the question was whether the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which permitted slavery is territories south of I think 36'30''N, should apply to territories gained after that time, or whether slavery should be forbidden altogether/permitted altogether in them. So all these issues were very closely connected. The Civil War was really about this, not about slavery in the existing States, which no-one- at least, no-one who was in a position to do anything about it- was proposing to abolish by force in the 1850s.
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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

We rarely sing this, but I often play it as a prelude to the service (can't remember the name of the tune as I'm not a real musician and never remember hymn tunes). Ken, I think of your rants about it every single time I play it.

--------------------
Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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marzipan
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We sing quite a lot of 'traditional'* hymns at my church, plus some more recent songs. I prefer the traditional ones as the tunes are often easier to play (and to sing
It's easy to tell when nobody knows the song as the singing gets very quiet...There are not many confident singers (and as for the musicians, anyone who lets me loose with the music has fairly low standards [Razz] )

We use a projector but there are hymn books with the same words in. I think it's a programme linked with the hymn book (Mission Praise) as you can search by hymn number. I regret that we don't use the hymn numbers board! One day I'll get there early and put the numbers up [Two face]

Playing the music at church has improved my sight reading no end - in the middle of the sermon the other week the preacher was inspired to request
'I do not know what lies ahead'

*Not songs of praise traditional though - baptist traditional

--------------------
formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese

Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pine Marten
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# 11068

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.

But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?

According to 'The Hymnal 1940 Companion' 18 of Milton's stanzas have been omitted, including
'And large-limb'd Og he did subdue
With all his over-hardy crew.' [Killing me]
There is also:
'The ruddy waves he cleft in twain,
Of the Erythraean main. (which would be quite a tongue-twister)
The 'Companion' notes that Milton crafted this translation at age 18.

The tune given in The Hymnal 1940 and The Hymnal 1982 is 'Monkland,' which jogs along merrily.

The tune may jog along merrily, but it's so high-pitched that it makes my brain ache. I wouldn't mind singing about ruddy waves and large-limb'd Og, though [Biased] .

And we sing There is a green hill every Holy Week (sorry, leo) and Dear Lord and Father of Mankind occasionally too (sorry, ken) [Razz] .

--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

Don't hold back!

Actually. Sorry, there may be all sorts of reasons for disliking it but "neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping ... blasphemy"?

Ken is quite right.

We had a very long thread devoted to this hymns a long time ago and the things that struck me were

What is “the silence of eternity"? Death?

“ordered lives confess/The beauty of Thy peace” – this is quietism – God usually speaks to us through our disorder. It’s often the only way he can get in

“Breathe through the heats of our desire” – is desire sinful? Sounds more like Buddhism. Christianity offers us the fulfilment of our desires.

“let flesh retire” is Gnostic. Christ came in the flesh to redeem the flesh

“all our strivings cease” – what, our striving for justice and peace?

‘Sabbath rest by Galilee” – it was Jesus's custom to go to the synagogue – he wasn’t one of those who say that you arte nearer to god in the garden, in nature etc.

The ‘hills above’ which are depicted as ‘calm’ is the Golan heights which was then, as now, home to freedom fighters and border skirmishes.

(It was written by a Unitarian or a Quaker – can’t remember which.)

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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angelica37
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# 8478

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There's a few hymns from my youth (at Catholic primary school) that I haven't heard for years, 'Faith of Our Fathers' anyone?
or 'I'll sing a hymn to Mary,
the mother of my God,
the Virgin of all Virgins,
of David's royal blood'

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
We use a projector <<snip>> in the middle of the sermon the other week the preacher was inspired to request
'I do not know what lies ahead'

Perhaps the projectionist was having a problem that day projecting the right words for the hymns at hand?

[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Leo, the poet of "Dear Lord and Father", John Greenleaf Whittier, was a Quaker. It's part of a long poem (seen that before in this thread) called "The Brewing of Soma", intended as a statement against the wildness of revivalist evangelicalism.

He really didn't like enthusiasm...

I have only now bothered to look it up. A bit of a rant, it is, and ironic how it is now used. In context, the parts you object to make more sense, I think, than being just Gnostic philosophy. Quietist you would expect, I suppose.

There's a comment page.

Here.

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