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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Daily Office (yet again)
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
What're the rules for reading the Office of the Dead on Sundays? I know I've seen them somewhere for use when All Souls Day falls on Sunday. I've looked through the GILOH but can't seem to find anything.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Or you can get a regular BCP bound together with the Bible -- it works well for me, especially when i'm traveling. Admittedly the type in the Bible section is quite small indeed, but I have a couple of plastic bookmarks which are also magnifiers and they work well for me.
This is what i regularly use for the office.
Yessiree, Bob!
A 1979 BCP bound together with the Bible is just what the doctor ordered.
This is about twenty-five dollars cheaper then when I got mine five or six years ago.
Notice that this has the RCL lectionary tables printed in it. Be sure to examine any you buy to make sure they're not foisting one with the 'old' lectionary in it—unless that's what you want.
As far as the eight-point type in the Bible: that why Granny gets her eyes checked every year and always has her good glasses with her, paying attention to her sainted mother's admonition to always bring the best light to bear on things.
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
I also want to put in a plug for Magnificat. I have tried ALL the daily office books (I have them stored in a box in my closet now), including the more esoteric ones from Lancelot Andrewes press, but have settled on Magnificat, augmented by a study Bible.
I find that, instead of rushing through a longer office, as I was doing with the various daily office books, Magnificat provides an opportunity to linger contemplatively over the readings, savoring them. I often look up the texts in my study Bible also, which provides more background and depth to what some call a short and uncomplicated service.
Lily
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A 1979 BCP bound together with the Bible is just what the doctor ordered.
This is about twenty-five dollars cheaper then when I got mine five or six years ago.
Notice that this has the RCL lectionary tables printed in it. Be sure to examine any you buy to make sure they're not foisting one with the 'old' lectionary in it—unless that's what you want.
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
I have a feeling this will go the way of the Galley Prayer Book Office in terms of price! It sounds like a rare gem.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PataLeBon
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# 5452
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Posted
Ok...I've taken back up reading the Daily Office and now it's Lent.
If I want to do the Great Litany (once in awhile), where would it go??
(Just in case, I'm using the 79 BCP, but if you know where it goes in another one, I'm adaptable!)
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
Ok...I've taken back up reading the Daily Office and now it's Lent.
If I want to do the Great Litany (once in awhile), where would it go??
(Just in case, I'm using the 79 BCP, but if you know where it goes in another one, I'm adaptable!)
That's an easy one, as it is specifically stated on page 148 of the BCP79:
quote:
To be said or sung, kneeling, standing, or in procession; before the Eucharist or after the Collects of Morning or Evening Prayer; or
separately; especially in Lent and on Rogation days.
The office would seem to proceed as normal, ending thus:
- Last Canticle
- [The Lord be with you]
- [Omit the Lord's Prayer here, per p. 142]
- Suffrages
- Collects
- Litany (including Our Father)
- Ending A: Versicle & Collect after Our Father, p. 153, then The Grace p. 154
- Ending B: Our Father p.153, Supplication p.154-5, not clear whether The Grace p. 154 follows, but seems to make sense
In the case of Lutheranism, the short answer is that we would place the Litany where the suffrages occur, ending with the Lord's Prayer, Let us bless the Lord, and a blessing.
[ 15. March 2011, 01:50: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
malik3000, may I ask where you got this?
What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?
Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?
I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
malik3000, may I ask where you got this?
What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?
Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?
I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.
The certificate on the back of the t-p says
"I certify that this edition of [the BCP] has been compared with a certified copy of the Standard Book, as the Canon directs, and that it conforms thereunto, noting that is has been amended by action of the 2006 General Convention to include the Revised Common Lectionary.
George Michael Howe
Custodian [etc.]
February 2007
It does indeed have 9634AP stamped on the back.
I bought mine at the Cathedral of St. Philip bookstore in Atlanta. It cost something over $110.00 (US of course) or so -- i can't remember exactly.
I already had known that it had the RCL -- i didn't discover that it also had the '79 lectionary until after i'd purchased it. It was an interesting and pleasant surprise.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
I also want to put in a plug for Magnificat. I have tried ALL the daily office books (I have them stored in a box in my closet now), including the more esoteric ones from Lancelot Andrewes press, but have settled on Magnificat, augmented by a study Bible.
Lily
I liked Magnificat but I've just chanced on Liturgical Press' 'Give us this Day'. It looks promising, promising a diverse range of catholic voices in the reflective pieces.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
As I mentioned on another thread, Catholic Book Publishing has printed the Daytime Prayers from the Liturgy of the Hours in a separate volume: link
In other news, I found a review of the recent African edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in English posted on a blog, complete with pictures: African LoTH review. It looks interesting.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
malik3000, may I ask where you got this?
What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?
Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?
I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.
The certificate on the back of the t-p says
"I certify that this edition of [the BCP] has been compared with a certified copy of the Standard Book, as the Canon directs, and that it conforms thereunto, noting that is has been amended by action of the 2006 General Convention to include the Revised Common Lectionary.
George Michael Howe
Custodian [etc.]
February 2007
It does indeed have 9634AP stamped on the back.
I bought mine at the Cathedral of St. Philip bookstore in Atlanta. It cost something over $110.00 (US of course) or so -- i can't remember exactly.
I already had known that it had the RCL -- i didn't discover that it also had the '79 lectionary until after i'd purchased it. It was an interesting and pleasant surprise.
Thank you Malik3000 for that very helpful post. It has enabled to to purchase one.
An obsessive note for those who might be contemplating a similar purchase. Feed the string bcp nrsv into Amazon.com's search box and you will see three different choices.
One is from Church Publishing (Sept. 1, 2007) and I can tell you nothing about it.
One, from Oxford, I describe below (Oct. 17, 2007).
The third (Jan. 12, 2009), also from Oxford, is about one-third cheaper than the other Oxford edition.
I wonder if this Jan. 12, 2009 edition no longer contains the 1979 Lectionary. Can anyone enlighten me?
I just received my copy (Oct. 17, 2007) from a "Fulfilled by Amazon" store for $60.91. It is exactly what Malik3000 described and is exactly what the doctor prescribed: the 45 pages of the, so-called, 1979 Lectionary are bound in immediately after the Daily Office Lectionary.
The seven paragraphs printed immediately before "The Revised Common Lectionary" ("Concerning the Lectionary") are the same as those printed before the old 1979 Lectionary.
"The 1979 Lectionary" appears on the title page, 1003. Page 1005 contains a "To the Reader," which I have reproduced, below. In addition the same seven paragraphs, entitled "Concerning the Lectionary" are reprinted on the reverse of the title, page 2006. quote:
To the Reader:
In June 2006, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church, USA, approved the use of a form of the Revised Common Lectionary (RCL), beginning on the first Sunday of Advent 2007, and becoming mandatory on the same Sunday in 2010.
In anticipation of this change, we have included the RCL, in its proper place within the Book of Common Prayer.
We realize, however, that many in the church will continue to use the previous lectionary, which we are calling the 1979 Lectionary, whether because their parish is continuing to use it in worship until the 2010 date, or out of fondness or familiarity.
To honor these wishes and the tradition of the Episcopal Church, we have included in the following pages the 1979 Lectionary. We hope you will find this appendix helpful.
OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS
Unhelpfully, the running footers for the 1979 Lectionary pages are indistinguishable from those for the RCL, inviting the unwary reader to mistake one for the other.
I hope the kindly hosts will forgive this near tangent away from strictly Daily Office business, but as this volume is noised on this thread chiefly for its utility to reading the daily office it seems to stray not too far afield.
That, and I really want to know what lectionaries the Oxford Jan. 12, 2009 edition contains.
[ 23. March 2011, 20:41: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
News on Baronius' bi-lingual "Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum" following the rubrics of 1961 (which is basically a republication of the three-volume Breviary published by Collegeville in 1963).
You can now sign up for a "Breviary Pre-Order Alert Form", the delivery is scheduled for August 2011 and the provisional price is $350 / £230. For more details, go here.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
David James' sterling work on revising the Coverdale Psalter to bring it into greater conformity with the Septuagint text, but preserving the liturgical English as far as possible, is now finally in print from Jordanville as "A Psalter For Prayer."
I hope this link will work !
It includes the instructional material of praying the Psalter, the full kathismata prayers and how to pray the Psalter for departed souls, and looks as if it has been beautifully produced in hardback. If funds allow, I shall be ordering a copy very soon....
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
A much better link with greater content detail and reviews for "The Psalter For Prayer" can be found here.
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
A much better link with greater content detail and reviews for "The Psalter For Prayer" can be found here.
The table of contents at this link has quite possibly sold me on the book. Looking at the finances now and deciding. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Only "negative" I can see is the cover design. But I can put a cover over it! (I don't like the typeface...but that shouldn't get in the way of what looks like excellent contents.)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Free 1962 Latin-English breviary app for iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad here. Since I do not own any of these devices, I cannot comment on the quality. Looks OK though, and it's free...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Free 1962 Latin-English breviary app for iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad here. Since I do not own any of these devices, I cannot comment on the quality. Looks OK though, and it's free...
Thank you! I've downloaded it, and I'm investigating it to see whether it might serve as a nifty electronic Anglican Breviary if you read the English text and don't mind the differences in the wording. (I realize the AB aligns best with the 1911, I think, Roman Breviary, but it might come close to the 1962.)
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I've used the iPhone/iPod app linked by IngoB above, and I've found it's a very handy tool if you want to pray the 1962 Breviarium Romanum in Latin, English, or Hungarian. It lines up all the texts you need, so you simply scroll, read, and pray.
It's an "app" version of this site.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm home sick, today, slightly delirious, thinking that it would be a good idea to start reading the office in Latin.
No doubt this question from a beginner has been asked somewhere in the preceding 14 pages, but I'm too lightheaded to do the reading.
Can someone please tell me the best options? I prefer a full-form office. I'm no longer feeling All-was-fine-until-Rome-wrecked-things-in-the-'50s, so a current Roman Hours mono- or bi-lingual would be great, but one from the 1960s or '50s would be good too.
It has to be a book, as my phone is only a phone.
Many thanks in advance.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Not a book, obviously, but there's Breviary.net: "The Divine Office of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church." It's a "traditional" one, from what I know.
Pancho will be along shortly to tell us if it's any good. (I always thought it was, but what do I know about it, really? I'm totally outside the RCC loop.)
Well, I hope it helps, a little. Feel better, TSA....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Breviary.net has everything that you need for each individual day but you have to navigate the pages yourself unless you pay for a subscription.
I find it very useful from an academic perspective but having to click through various menus to connect the different parts of the service is hardly prayerful. One could always compile it and print it out though.
Sorry to hear that you're not so well TSA...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Thank you both for your kind thoughts.
I really do need a physical book, though. I wedge the Hours in vacant spots in the day, such as waiting for, or riding, the bus or train.
I just can't be tethered, wired or wirelessly. Nor do I want to spare the firing of a single synapse beyond what it takes to select a marker ribbon and open a book to the correct page.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I really do need a physical book, though. I wedge the Hours in vacant spots in the day, such as waiting for, or riding, the bus or train.
Would you like the 1979 BCP in Latin? Buy one here. You'll still need a Bible, though.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Can someone please tell me the best options? I prefer a full-form office. I'm no longer feeling All-was-fine-until-Rome-wrecked-things-in-the-'50s, so a current Roman Hours mono- or bi-lingual would be great, but one from the 1960s or '50s would be good too. It has to be a book, as my phone is only a phone.
If you have money, you can go for the Latin Breviarium Romanum from nova et vetera. If you have even more money and patience, you can wait for the bilingual Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum from Baronius. Both are 1960s version with ecclesiastic approval (new imprimatur and concordat cum originali, respectively). If you have more money still, then you can buy the current ordinary rite Latin Liturgia Horarum iuxta ritum romanum, editio typica altera (alternate source). You may be able to find a cheaper / used version somewhere, since this is a recent reprint of the 1985 edition, which is the currently valid one.
By the way, here's the Liturgia Horarum for free in PDB iSilo format and hence for pretty much any platform. However, you will have to buy the reader, which annoys me deeply even though it's not that expensive.
[ 01. June 2011, 15:05: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
(Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now....
I wonder if there's a .mobi or .epub version out there, now that I think of it? Those readers are not too expensive these days - and you can carry literally thousands of books around with you. I'll do a little snooping in that regard, in fact.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
There is also the Monastic Diurnal whose rubrics can easily be learned by using the helpful lessons on this blog (see right hand column called "Learning the Office").
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now...
Not at all, as far as the Divine Office is concerned I'm mostly a clueless newbie and definitely not a regular prayer (though I followed the "Magnificat" version for a couple of years fairly regularly). I just happen to watch this particular space, because of this weird belief I have that owning a book by intellectual osmosis transfers its content into my brain (or that's at least an excuse I have for buying and not reading so many of them).
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I wonder if there's a .mobi or .epub version out there, now that I think of it? Those readers are not too expensive these days - and you can carry literally thousands of books around with you. I'll do a little snooping in that regard, in fact.
Actually, before posting I looked quite hard whether there is some way of getting those iSilo PDBs onto a Kindle. Because that would be such a good excuse for buying one, a holy sacrifice... The answer appears to be no. That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Actually, before posting I looked quite hard whether there is some way of getting those iSilo PDBs onto a Kindle. Because that would be such a good excuse for buying one, a holy sacrifice... The answer appears to be no. That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.
The thing is, there's such a thing as "Calibre" - some sort of open-source e-reader format converter - which may (or may not) translate between some of these things. I'm working my way through all this right now and haven't come to any definite conclusions yet.
I did find various e-reader versions of the Breviary - but this one's in English only, AFAICT.
Still snooping for the Latin....
[ 01. June 2011, 22:46: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Well, a bit of success! Here's The Complete Office of Holy Week According to the Roman Missal and Breviary, in Latin and English (1875)!
Quite poor formatting, though, and some really messed-up OCR conversions, at least on Kindle for PC. I'll see what it looks like on the regular Kindle and let you know.
Well, it's something, anyway - and just about free (unless there's some little charge for uploading it to Amazon, which there might be). It does look, unfortunately, that you get what you pay for - but that's only for today!
Lots of us are out here busy, busy, busy making e-files for the world, so check back in next week....
[ 01. June 2011, 22:55: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.
This is not the place for righteous rants about proprietary intellectual property prisons and assholish copyright extensions to benefit fictive persons. So I won't. quote:
IngoB sed:
If you have money...
Sigh. Well, I've got money, but I'm not sure I responsibly have money for one of those.
The essence of either the Anglican Daily Office or the Roman Hours is the daily and hours part. In another century, I would shuffle off from the vicarage to the church and pick up the book where I'd left it. And, it would be no worse for the wear. In this mobile, urban century, I'm hither and yon and so is the book. With the attendant wear and tear. Seems a pity to do that with a book or books which cost the best part of four hundred dollars.
IngoB, thank you for those links.
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
There is also the Monastic Diurnal whose rubrics can easily be learned by using the helpful lessons on this blog (see right hand column called "Learning the Office").
This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The thing is, there's such a thing as "Calibre" - some sort of open-source e-reader format converter - which may (or may not) translate between some of these things.
I tried Calibre on this before posting originally. It will read the PDB container, but neither display nor convert the iSilo content. The iSilo trial version (30 days free) will allow saving as plain text file. But that's about it, best I can tell.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.
Well, if the Benedictine version is for you, then you could go cutting edge and use the first fully Vatican II compliant Gregorian chant version made by Solesmes (took only 40 years to make): Antiphonale Monasticum I, II, and III. Total costs are below US$150, for some more info go to here, where you can see a sample page.
Or you can go really wild, and get three volumes of the current ordinary Liturgia Horarum in Latin and French with Gregorian chant from Solesmes. Not really "official" yet - but certainly something the Joneses won't be praying. Get it here, not cheap but cheaper than the official edition linked to above.
I'm not sure to what extent there's overlap of the chant in that edition with the Antiphonale Romanum II, also from Solesmes. But I think there's no complete set of that yet...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
There's also Lauds and Vespers from the Newman House Press. Like It says, it only had lauds and vespers, so you miss out on matins, compline, and the little hours, but it's very convenient. I used it till I could afford the full Latin set. The English translation has much going for it,it's very beautiful.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
There is another edition of the Monastic Diurnal available from Amazon France which was edited by the monks of Le Barroux. It is in Latin and French, and provides a very helpful appendix in which the propers and office rubrics for post-1963 observances from the modern Benedictine kalendar are provided.
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dkpintar
Apprentice
# 14802
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Posted
Silent Acolyte:
The African edition of the Liturgy of the Hours may be for you. It's not *that* expensive. Mine cost about £125.00 and that included shipping from Kenya.
It's a good book. And I'm moving to using it full time. I've tried them all--other English, Latin, French editions (Spanish was going to be next . . . ).
This is going to work best for me.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.
Well, if the Benedictine version is for you...
I has taken me a couple of days to screw up my courage to ask: what makes the Benedictine Hours Benedictine?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I has taken me a couple of days to screw up my courage to ask: what makes the Benedictine Hours Benedictine?
Primarily, the psalter is laid out differently. This is the traditional monastic and this the traditional Roman layout. Note that the Monastic Diurnal does not contain Matins, which is the reason why it is so compact (that hour is by far the longest). Matins has become the Office of Readings now. In practice, not praying Matins means that you will miss most psalms (as you can see from the schema), which is perhaps more problematic for monks than for you (St Benedict required his community to pray through the psalter once a week, thus monks would need dispensation to miss Matins). Also, there are structural differences, with typically the Roman version being more elaborate I believe (e.g., no Nunc Dimittis in Compline for the Benedictine office). The Benedictine calendar and hence the proper of saints is also different from the Roman one (centered more on Benedictines, obviously). Caveat: all this from vague memories and some quick Google checks now, I repeat that I'm really no expert.
Have you consider starting with something simpler in saying a Latin office, e.g., with the The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Traditionally that would be more common for a lay person anyhow. If you want to use the Monastic Diurnal, check out the help file at Saints will arise, and here is a user forum.
Personally, I don't think that I'm cut out for the complexity and effort, at least without community support. Something like the Oratio Vespertina, full structure here, is more like it for me.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
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Posted
Upon looking around I did find a Roman Diurnal as well, at the same low price point as the Monastic Diurnal: here, review here. It is not a diglot though, just Latin, but it has plenty of extras. I should probably also mention the SSPX version of the traditional Roman breviary, see here. I see not reason to support this outfit though given that the nova et vetera one is available. Note also that the review link above contains a link to PDF instructions on how to pray the Roman Breviary.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...
I've never really prayed the Little Office of the BVM, but the pre-Vatican II one seems like a good office to learn to pray. I can see why it was used by monastic novices, as it laid everything out and didn't change much, other than seasonally. Then along came the current version with it's "You could do this, or you could do that, pick one or two, or skip it," and the whole "little office" character goes away.
I'm probably wrong for preferring that the Office of any given day (whether using a little office or the full regular one) be just one thing without a lot of choices to be made (or any, really). Tricky enough to find all the required pieces without having to make decisions among options as well.
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minstermusic
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# 16462
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Posted
I began reading all the posts in this thread with interest, but having got as far as page 4 decided to skip to the end. Forgive me therefore if I repeat anything which others have already said...
For a number of years as a high Anglican, then Roman Catholic, I used at least Morning and Evening Prayer from the Divine Office. Since my return to the Anglican fold and my rediscovery of the treasures of the BCP, particularly adorned by the glorious music of our English cathedrals, I have begun to use the Prayer Book. What has put me off, however, was the need for a copy of the lectionary or a diary with daily readings referenced, and a bible.
I have just found the answer! On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP. It automatically inserts the correct psalmody and readings according to the calendar, and you can schedule reminders - so your phone will remind you when it's time for evensong! I think it's also possible to import 'custom liturgies' from other sources, although it's a bit beyond me at present. I think that the trad. language Night Prayer is 1928.
I've only just started using this (well, yesterday), so can't say how good it is, and I'm not sure how I'll get on not using a nicely bound book with ribbon markers! I'd be glad to hear from anyone else who's used it.
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Take heed ye unwise among the people: O ye fools when will ye understand? Ps.94.8.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
I have just found the answer! On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP. It automatically inserts the correct psalmody and readings according to the calendar, and you can schedule reminders - so your phone will remind you when it's time for evensong! I think it's also possible to import 'custom liturgies' from other sources, although it's a bit beyond me at present. I think that the trad. language Night Prayer is 1928.
I've only just started using this (well, yesterday), so can't say how good it is, and I'm not sure how I'll get on not using a nicely bound book with ribbon markers! I'd be glad to hear from anyone else who's used it.
This sounds fantastic, but I can't find it in iTunes, and I gather it's an Android app?
Now back to finding the Breviarium Romanum app again for my iPod, which seems to have forgotten about that app due to a recent retransmogrification.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP.
you can also get this via the 'MyCofE' app. I don't know if it's the same software, but it's quite useful when stuck without a book. The snags are that if you want to say a slightly shorter office (only one reading for example) you have to scroll down quite a way, and you're stuck with their choice of celebration (saints' days overriding Sundays, or vice versa, for example). Also it decides for you when it is too late to say Evening Prayer and directs you to Compline instead.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...
I've never really prayed the Little Office of the BVM, but the pre-Vatican II one seems like a good office to learn to pray. I can see why it was used by monastic novices, as it laid everything out and didn't change much, other than seasonally. Then along came the current version with it's "You could do this, or you could do that, pick one or two, or skip it," and the whole "little office" character goes away.
I'm probably wrong for preferring that the Office of any given day (whether using a little office or the full regular one) be just one thing without a lot of choices to be made (or any, really). Tricky enough to find all the required pieces without having to make decisions among options as well.
Yes, I had the pre-VII version in mind. It's a nice little office.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621
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Posted
MM, to which pre-VatII Little Office were your referring ?
I'm looking out for one at the moment, so I might as well get a Pre-VII version and would be glad to know what you recommend.... ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
MM, to which pre-VatII Little Office were your referring ?
I'm looking out for one at the moment, so I might as well get a Pre-VII version and would be glad to know what you recommend....
I have two* at the moment, this is the version I prefer, although this one is fine, and scores over the other for compactness, being roughly palm-sized.
*I may be disposing of one in due course.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now....
Thank you for thinking of me! To be honest, though, IngoB probably knows as much or more than I do about the older offices.
Apologies if I'm repeating any information.
Breviary.net is a slightly older form of the older office. That is, it's the office before a few changes made in the 50s and 60s but before the modern Liturgy of the Hours. There will be some differences with the 1960s Breviary/Divine Office of the Extraordinary Form such as in the calendar, the classification of feasts, possibly some rubric, etc. ; but otherwise it's the same. Also, I believe that site is run by sedevacantists, which would explain why it's the slightly older, older version of the Office.
As for singing the Divine Office in Latin, for the older office you can use the 1912 Antiphonale Romanum and the 1961 Liber Usualis, available as big pdf files under "Latin Chant Books" at this page.
For the current Liturgy of the Hours you can use the edition from the Community of St. Martin that IngoB pointed out above. I'm not sure how complete it is or how well it matches with the "Ordo Cantus Officii", the official "blueprint" for singing the modern Liturgy of the Hours.
Otherwise, there is the Liber Hymnarius which contains the Latin hymns for the LoTH, as well as the invitatory psalms and their antiphons in different modes, plus some responsories. There is then the Antiphonale Romanum II, containing Vespers for Sundays and Feasts for much of the year but apparently not for Ordinary Time.
Official books for the other Hours and for Ordinary Time are still missing. The gaps can be filled with the books from the Community of St. Martin. You can also try piecing together material according to the Ordo Cantus Officii, which lists where the chants can be found, but the material is spread between different books that can be difficult or expensive to find.
Ignatius Press recently published The Office of Compline in Latin and English set to chant. Modern Compline is only on a 1-week cycle. For the modern LoTH, this is probably the simplest, easiest way to pray or chant the Office in Latin.
[ 17. June 2011, 01:30: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
The Cathedral of Notre-Dame de Paris is publishing a (French-language, of course) Liturgy of the Hours with music as done in the cathedral. Attractively designed. Six volumes in all, when complete. Only three are available now. Very interesting.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) Go ahead...buy 'em!
No! You don't know French!
[Code repair.]
[ 20. June 2011, 14:21: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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