|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Daily Office (yet again)
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
My shack is Anglican, but non-Communion. However, following the example of the C of E we still require the Office to be read.
+PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
The Antiphonale Romnum Is finally here! Wow, they got it done is such a short time.It's only been- how many years since Vatican II? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.
My copy is on its way to me from Solesmes...could arrive even today. I'll report.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
Adobe is working now, and both the Sarum and Dominican chants are great! Thanks to both of you for your help!
[ 12. February 2010, 04:28: Message edited by: St.Silas the carter ]
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
It will be interesting to see if the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum has the same psalm antiphons as does the Latin/French three-volume Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin. These are often different from those in the current Liturgia Horarum, apparently because the Vatican has insisted that only traditional Gregorian melodies may be used for singing the current Liturgy of the Hours in Latin, which cannot always be adapted to the more recent antiphons in LH.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
It will be interesting to see if the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum has the same psalm antiphons as does the Latin/French three-volume Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin. These are often different from those in the current Liturgia Horarum, apparently because the Vatican has insisted that only traditional Gregorian melodies may be used for singing the current Liturgy of the Hours in Latin, which cannot always be adapted to the more recent antiphons in LH.
I expect it to.The Ordo Cantus Officii specifies many antiphons different from those in the Liturgia horarum In some places, all the antiphons are replaced with antiphons from the old breviary.(Like on the feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.)
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
|
Posted
I've had a look at the texts only (not the chants) for the first six Sundays in Ordinary Time, years A, B and C, in various Latin versions of the modern Office.
Ordo Cantus Oficii (OCO) gives references for antiphons for the Gospel canticle for I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers. The ones for I Vespers are the same in all three years and do not relate to the Gospel readings at Mass on the relevant Sundays. The gospel canticle antiphons for Lauds and II Vespers do relate to the Gospels in years A, B and C, with some overlap where the same antiphon fits with similar Gospels in different years.
Lauds and Vespers Latin-English (L&V) gives texts only (no chants) for the Gospel canticle antiphons for Sundays. There are Gospel canticle antiphons for I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers for each year, all of which (including I Vespers) relate to the Sunday Mass gospel in the appropriate year.
Les Heures Gregorriennes (HG) gives one gospel canticle antiphon only for each of the years A, B, and C, to be used at I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers. This is sometimes the one assigned for Lauds or II Vespers in OCO.
The new Antiphonale Romanum II (AR) gives Gospel canticle antiphons for I and II Vespers (nothing for Lauds) for years A, B and C. One of the two is the same as the one given in HG (which was also prepared by Solesmes). So AR gives you one more than HG provides, but still not all three!
L&V, HG and AR all seem to have moved on quite a bit from the original scheme in OCO, as as allowed by the 2008 decree printed at the front of AR. The newer books all have Gospel canticle antiphon texts that come from (or are near enough to) the Mass Gospel for the Sunday, but no two books use all the same texts.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
|
Posted
Sorry - HG and AR do use the same texts (but AR has twice as many!)
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
I don't know about "should", but I would generally say MP before a Eucharist, finding the prayer time beneficial when preparing to receive.
--------------------
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
I think the idea is that you say it beforehand (I think when 'full' sets of Offices were said in religious communities, the Eucharist came quite late, after Prime or Terce or something). I'd like to say that I was able to do this but it can be a hassle time-wise and it's already afternoon afterwards!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
|
Posted
Hello all. If you haven't discovered this gem yet, you should ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . The Wantage sisters at the Covent of St Mary the Virgin stream their Divine Office here on real time. I've heard their Vespers (past my midnight) - fine example of English plainchant!
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
You can pray MP any time in the morning, really, but traditionally it's before Mass (our parish has MP before the first Mass daily).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
You can pray MP any time in the morning, really, but traditionally it's before Mass (our parish has MP before the first Mass daily).
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.
Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
|
Posted
Anyone interested in a Third Edition Collegeville SHORT BREVIARY with extra festal lessons?
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.
Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.
My copy is on its way to me from Solesmes...could arrive even today. I'll report.
Well, it didn't arrive on Feb. 9, but on Feb. 24. Yes, it has the Vespers of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday, straightforwardly presented as on other days, but with the note that on Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, those who participate in the evening liturgy don't say Vespers as well.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
From a moderate Anglo-Catholic perspective:
Ritual Notes says that MP and EP can, in private recitation, be read at any time on the day in question.
However, in public use Morning Prayer should strictly preceed the first Mass of the day as it is an abridgement of Matins and Lauds. That said though it is often said before the main Mass; and Evening Prayer belongs to the late afternoon/early evening due to its descent from Vespers and Compline.
We'll leave the matter of anticipating MP overnight for another time.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.
Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?
Of course one of the benefits of travelling by public transport is that one can pray the office with a fair degree of regularity, although chanting it can raise eyebrows...
--------------------
Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Of course one of the benefits of travelling by public transport is that one can pray the office with a fair degree of regularity, although chanting it can raise eyebrows...
'Round about these parts, busting out a book with the gold edges and a cross on the cover is what raises the eyebrows. Although my favorite day was the one when I got on the train and sat in the seats facing the direction of travel with my prayer book, on the other side of the aisle in the seats facing the other way was an honest-to-goodness Hare Krishna tolling his beads. We BOTH got stared at, and commented on, and we kind of looked at each other, smiled a bit, and went back to our devotions.
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
'Round about these parts, busting out a book with the gold edges and a cross on the cover is what raises the eyebrows. Although my favorite day was the one when I got on the train and sat in the seats facing the direction of travel with my prayer book, on the other side of the aisle in the seats facing the other way was an honest-to-goodness Hare Krishna tolling his beads. We BOTH got stared at, and commented on, and we kind of looked at each other, smiled a bit, and went back to our devotions.
I may have mentioned a while back the African woman I saw reading a book on a train, her bright green dress and matching headdress looking very regal indeed. As I left the train, I glanced at her book and saw that it was the tan Volume III of the Liturgy of the Hours. Hadn't expected that for some reason, although the word "catholic" sprang to mind.
People who read The Tipping Point, Freakonomics, or Eat Pray Love tend to hold their books up for all to see as they read. Those with breviaries or rosaries keep them well hidden, but these can sometimes be seen as one walks by. On Sundays, the train I take to church is often well populated with people carrying or reading Bibles; these are usually people headed for the 9.50am service at the venerable Moody Church.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
|
Posted
On my commute I sometimes sit near Chassidim. They read their little black book, I read mine. I imagine that they're reading the Psalms in Hebrew, as I read them in English.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
On my commute I sometimes sit near Chassidim. They read their little black book, I read mine. I imagine that they're reading the Psalms in Hebrew, as I read them in English.
I once saw a Chassid in an airport waiting area; he had his prayerbook open but the light was bad. So he went up to the better-lighted checkin counter and asked to be allowed to daven there, standing at the counter, and they let him, and he did. (It wasn't a busy time at the counter.)
Impressed me, and shamed me a little. Very moving to see him get the light he needed to pray, not worrying about who was watching.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
That's a great story. Once I found a quiet advertising pillar in Nadi Airport, sat down, and whipped out my prayer book and Bible and did Evening Prayer. They probably thought I was some sort of weirdo, but I didn't care. A strange looking (to me) person who reminded me of Professor Godbole, but looking much, much more Hindu, appeared from nowhere and appeared to be joining me in spirit, which was just fine. Where two or three...
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
Just received a complete set of the Solesmes Lectionnaire Monastique in perfect condition thanks to the generosity of another contributor to this forum. I plan to use it in conjunction with Les Heures Gregoriennes of the Community of St Martin.
The next item on my shopping list will probably be the new Antiphonale Romanum for LH Sunday Vespers which has just been published by Solesmes.
Incidently, I have also obtained a copy of John Gunstone's Lift High the Cross, which is a history of the Anglo-Catholic Congresses of the 1920s and 1930s. Has anyone else seen it yet?
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
The next item on my shopping list will probably be the new Antiphonale Romanum for LH Sunday Vespers which has just been published by Solesmes.
I received my copy recently and find it very well done and easy to use. My first thought on encountering the hardcover was "Gideon Bible" ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) but that's no complaint, as it's sturdy the way I wish their Antiphonale Monasticum volumes were. Anyway, the new AR II provides Latin Vespers for Saturdays and Sundays and for holy days and their eves. With pointed psalms, yet. I always wondered, with the unpointed psalms in the monastic volumes, how the choir was supposed to agree on where to change notes.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
If you will pardon a brief return to the "breviary on the bus" tangent. I was once riding a bus in Orange County, CA, in street clericals, and a middle-aged lady got on the bus. I was reading my Anglican Breviary. She then proceeded to turn me a nice shade of pink by announcing to the whole bus that it was not only "nice to see a priest who was not stuck up and would ride the bus," and that this one "actually reads his Breviary." She hopped off two stops before me, so I assume she was a Catholic, had some issues with the management, and was going to Mass at St Hedwig's, which was about four blocks from my church.
I also have a question:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.
Interesting question; I assume you mean The English Office recently reprinted by Canterbury Norwich? I'll be interested in the answer if there's a directly applicable antiphoner. Many of the proper antiphons, especially on the Ben and Mag, and seasonal antiphons on the psalms, can be found (occasionally with minor text changes 1662 v. USA 1928) in C W Douglas' Monastic Diurnal Noted republished by Lancelot Andrewes Press. But the ferial psalm antiphons won't be found there but could be sung to a psalm tone from "Briggs and Frere," the Manual of Plainsong.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
FatherRobLyons
Shipmate
# 14622
|
Posted
I was out to visit a friend today and stopped by a local Cokesbury store, and came across "The Paraclete Psalter", produced by the Community of Jesus on Cape Cod, a 4 week Psalter that says it uses all 150 psalms during that time.
I found it interesting to see that they have no real Saturday office. The following is provided:
SUNDAY
I Vespers (listed as Saturday evening, but not)
Lauds
II Vespers
MONDAY - FRIDAY
Lauds
Midday
Vespers
Compline
SATURDAY
Nothing
Compline Psalms are the same every night (4, 91, 134) and the Sunday Psalms are the same every week. So Monday through Friday carry the burden across 3 offices for the remaining psalms.
Haven't used it yet, and cannot figure out why there is a 'sabbath' of sorts from the Work of God on a Saturday (me wonders if S. Benedict would have approved...)
Anyone else familiar with their form of the office, aside from the various controversies that accompany the group?
Rob+
Posts: 321 | From: Bargersville, IN | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
|
Posted
I have two questions about Canon Douglas' MD Noted.
Does anyone notice this about the ways the notes are transcribed? Some of the notes, either on its own as punctums or as part of neums covering several notes, are drawn larger or smaller than the rest. Furthermore, it seems to suggest those notes should receive an accentual stress or sung lightly, respectively.
Secondly, does anyone know if Douglas canon also pointed the psalter according to the system presented in the Introduction to the Psalm tones? The system of pointing looks similar to Palmer's Sarum psalter.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.
Interesting question; I assume you mean The English Office recently reprinted by Canterbury Norwich? I'll be interested in the answer if there's a directly applicable antiphoner. Many of the proper antiphons, especially on the Ben and Mag, and seasonal antiphons on the psalms, can be found (occasionally with minor text changes 1662 v. USA 1928) in C W Douglas' Monastic Diurnal Noted republished by Lancelot Andrewes Press. But the ferial psalm antiphons won't be found there but could be sung to a psalm tone from "Briggs and Frere," the Manual of Plainsong.
Yes, I was referring to "The English Office" reprinted by Canterbury Press a few years ago. The other office book I use is Fr Hartzell's (?) "The Prayer Book Office" (Morehouse, 1963).
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
|
Posted
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?
--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?
Yes, as far as I can find.
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?
I don't think we start omitting the Gloria Patri until Maundy Thursday (to Holy Saturday). And that's based on larger tradition, not our BCP.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.
I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.
You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caledonian
Shipmate
# 15493
|
Posted
I have just received an 1955 edition of the Scottish Prayer Book, (the 1929). Its pocket sized and just the job for me!
Posts: 76 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.
I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.
You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.
Ohhh. No, we keep on doing those. Sorry for the confusion.
--------------------
The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
|
Posted
I've been going back and forth on the Gloria Patri issue myself.
I think we can say with certainty that use of the Gloria Patri is suppressed for all Offices from Maundy Thursday through Holy Saturday (including Compline). Similarly, if we wish to follow the standard practice of the historic western liturgy, the opening versicles are also suppressed during this period. (The Offices are typically truncated as well but if/how to do this would probably devolve into a discussion of how each tradition decides to do it...)
What happens in the days of Holy Week before Triduum is up for grabs. IIRC, the dropping of the Gloria Patri occurred on Passion Sunday (Lent 5) under the old rules. My practice is to drop the Gloria Patri beginning with Palm Sunday as it's the new Passion Sunday. YMMV.
--------------------
The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
Posts: 177 | From: Baltimore-ish | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
|
Posted
Under the old* rules, the Gloria Patri partially ceased from use on Passion Sunday (Lent V). In the Office it was not said in the Invitatory, in the long responsories at Matins, and in the short responsories at the Little Hours. It continued to be used after the opening versicles and after the Psalms and Canticles until the Triduum. At Mass it was omitted at the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (the whole Psalm is omitted), at the Introit, and after the Lavabo. This only applied to Offices and Masses of the season; it would have been said as usual on all feast days.
*With reference to the Roman Rite, from at least 1570 until at least 1958. I can't speak confidently to what applied before 1570, although these rules were not without precedent; after 1958 there were certain changes culminating in the Novus Ordo in 1969, and I can't say when each change occurred.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
|
Posted
Thanks for the clarification, MW!
I'm back at the books now and as far as the pre-1570 goes, the Sarum Ordinal agrees concerning the disposition of GPs from Passion Sunday on. The GPs disappear from the psalms starting with Vespers on Maundy Thursday. So at least this strand of the tradition agrees with the Tridentine practice.
--------------------
The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
Posts: 177 | From: Baltimore-ish | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
|
Posted
As many of you know, I am now in charge of my first parish. The parish has a Charismatic/Evangelical background. As anyone on SoF would know from my nearly 10 years' involvement here, I identify at the Anglo-Catholic end of the spectrum - although modified through the... abusive system at college, and then the experience of a curacy in a low-evangelical parish (horror of horrors I can cope with Hillsong!).
Since I started here I've been saying MP in the church - and have been really chuffed that very rarely a day goes by when there's not at least one other parishioner there to pray with me. Very chuffing, considering I only have about 40 parishioners. *proud Mother*
However, I wasn't prepared for the impact this would have on my prayer life. The Office used to be for me a time of real personal connection with God - with its fluctuations of course. The difference I think is that I am now called to lead, and personal engagement, while it's there, takes a back seat.
So in an effort to address the balance, and make time for personal prayer, I consulted with my confessor, who suggested the Roman Daily Office/LOTH.
I dutifully obtained a 4 volumn edition (the American one?), and a copy of The Divine Office for Dodos, which assumes no prior knowledge and is laid out, well, for the simplest Dodo to read. However, I got a bit discouraged, because the lessons were too slow, especially given we were in Lent (and are now in Easter) and the lessons were based on Ordinary time. Even with the Dodo book, I am struggling to find my way around the book - there seem to be 100 different places to look up what you need to look up for each office, and as a mere Anglican I fear I'm getting it all terribly mixed up and wrong.
I'm also struggling with the appalling paucity of the English trans of the Grail psalms. Compared with the beautiful English of the 1662BCP, and even our APBA Psalter - or even the NRSV! - it just makes me want to weep. Lastly, I also struggle with the extreme gender non-inclusivity.
What I like about LOTH is:
- everything is in the one book (you don't need a prayer book, bible, lectionary, and any other supporting material);
- there is provision for offices during the day, not just MP, EP and Compline;
- the office of readings includes non-biblical material, commentary which helps to engage with the text;
- the orientation around the psalms - this is quite a difference in focus from our APBA1995 Daily Office, which is focussed on readings.
So I find myself in a peculiar bind. I really want to engage with LOTH. Even if only to use for the midday office and office of readings. But I am feeling very at sea with it.
Any suggestions?
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
|
Posted
As a longtime CCP user, I'd also looked at broadening into LOTH, so I'd also be interested in solutions to Nunc's dilemma.
Next question:
The (old) English Hymnal says that there is no Office Hymn in Eastertide until Low Sunday, which I think is a Sarum tradition? The LOTH seems to have a full set. Any idea why? Would there have been a Te Deum at every Office?
--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
After having lapsed for some time, I am currently getting back into the habit of praying Evening Prayer.
At the moment I am using the latest three-volume softback edition of the Solesmes Antiphonale Monasticum for the psalms and antiphons, with the appropriate volume of the secular Liturgia Horarum for the Office Hymn and intercessions.
For the reading I am currently using the first reading from the Office of Vigils as found in the Solesmes Lectionnaire Monastique. I use the Lectionnaire as a reference for the required passages and read the text from my small copy of the Catholic Truth Society Bible.
This means I have several books to juggle with, but I find it rewarding!!
I have also just obtained a copy of the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum, which I used for Vespers on Sunday.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
You have it!
Could you tell me what the new Antiphonale Romanum contains? More specifically, I would like to know if it contains tones for singing the preces (Intercessions) at lauds and vespers.
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
I find myself in a peculiar bind. I really want to engage with LOTH. Even if only to use for the midday office and office of readings. But I am feeling very at sea with it.
Any suggestions?
You could always say the office from Universalis, setting it up to be calibrated to your regional kalendar and printing hours to take with you as necessary. Universalis uses its own privately commissioned psalm translations, which are quite good, and the Jerusalem Bible renditions of the scriptural lessons. If you want an office hymn, you might find a suitable one in the old English Hymnal or if you don't mind Latin, you can copy and paste in the appropriate one from the Latin LH at Societas Laudis.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Could you tell me what the new Antiphonale Romanum contains? More specifically, I would like to know if it contains tones for singing the preces (Intercessions) at lauds and vespers.
Yes, it does. Chants and pointings are provided for everything in Vespers, including the chapter.
The "Toni Communes" section at the back of the book contains the following:
- Opening versicle and response: a chant for Sundays and feasts and a chant for solemnities
- Psalm tones I through VIII with all their variations and endings; also tones C, D, and E, and Tonus Peregrinus
- The ornate mediants for the Magnificat, underlaid with the first half of each verse of that canticle
- Rules for pointing texts for chant
- Chant for lessons
- Chant for short responsories
- Chant for intercessions: with reciting note (high) Doh, flex is Doh-lah, mediant is Doh-ti-lah-Doh, and response goes Doh-sol-lah-fah.
- Chant for the collect on Sundays
- Chants for collects with various endings
- Concluding rite chants: Blessing (one for priests and deacons, one for bishops); Dismissal (ordinary and Paschaltide); conclusion for lay officiants; ornate Benedicamus Domino for appropriate occasions
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
If you had the time, inclination, texts in pdf etc - you ought to be abel to set up a system that pulls the correct bits (according to whatever scheme you are using) into a slide show and then presents them to you. Are any of you compu-savy enough to devise such a thing ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
|
Posted
Hello all,
I'm looking for advice on praying through the daily offices. No matter what prayer book I use I find that I am rushing through the various offices due to time constraints. I end up skipping parts within each of the hours. With children and a career there isn't much I can do about the time crunch, at least for the next few years. So, should I continue to try and pray as many of the offices as possible while skipping parts or should I focus on one or occassionally even two of the hours? Your input is much appreciated.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
