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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Rite I or 1928ish TEC Anglo-Catholic Parishes
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
Church of Our Saviour in Atlanta (Virginia-Highland neighborhood) used to be '28 (ad orientem) at the early service, Rite I (versus populum, with minor propers chanted and incense) at the latter. Fr. Tanghe, rector there for some time, left TEC to be priest for a group of Episcopal nuns who also left TEC to become Roman Catholic. The parish has remained in TEC, and I gather is still conservative liturgically, but is now willing to use ASB versions of Rite II Eucharistic Prayers.
While i'm a member of St. Luke's in Atlanta, every so often i attend Our Saviour. In the last several years I've been at holy day high masses and weekday low masses and every time i've been there it has always been Rite 1.
Re A-C additions: They add the traditional pre-Novus Ordo proper psalm bits (introit, offeratory, etc.) and the (non-"secret" i.e. spoken or chanted out loud) prayer over the gifts and the postcommunion collect.
I noticed in the "low mass" booklet they use, rite 2 eucharistic prayers appear but i have never heard them actually used.
[ 08. February 2013, 02:17: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Many seem to think that Rite I is disappearing in favour of Rite II, [/QB]
In Washington DC I can think of 8 parished that are Rite I at least at the principal Sunday service. Not all of those are Anglo-catholic (two committed AC, two or three cathicolish), but one certainly doesn't have to look very hard to find trad lang round here.
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Weatherwax
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# 11920
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Posted
No one seems to have mentioned All Saints' Ashmont in Boston, which uses the ASB Rite 1 and the Hymnal 1940. It also maintains a men and boys' choir, which serves as a significant outreach to an at-risk community.
TEB
(edited for typo)
[ 08. February 2013, 23:33: Message edited by: TE Brown ]
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If thou couldst empty all thyself of self, Like to a shell dishabited, Then might He find thee on the Ocean shelf, And say—" This is not dead,"— And fill thee with Himself instead.
(formerly TE Brown)
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Pretty much every Episcopal church I have ever known uses Rite I at least some of the time.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Sorry I'm not able to provide a link at this time but St. Paul's in Riverside, Illinois appears to be exclusively Rite 1 as well.
I had heard that too, Prester John, but a bit of poking around on their
website was quite illuminating. St Paul's does a Rite I from the Anglican Service Book at 8:00 a.m. (said Eucharist) and a Rite II Solemn Eucharist at 10:00. A peek at their photo albums shows they celebrate east-facing at a high altar for Rite I and west-facing at a free-standing altar for Rite II. A look at the many PDFs (mostly essays from the Rector) linked on their "Catholic FAQs" page leaves no doubt as to that parish's point of view on many matters liturgical, theological, historical, and equine (deceased variety).
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
What about non-Anglo-Catholic Rite 1/ 1928 places?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
What about non-Anglo-Catholic Rite 1/ 1928 places?
Who cares? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Actually, it's just that A-C Rite I/'28 places are a bit of a hobby horse for me, because so many American Anglo-Catholics I know like to allege that the Rite I of that evil 1979 BCP inevitably turns into the hellish formularies of Rite II.
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Quam Dilecta
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# 12541
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Posted
To those who were born after 1960, the argument that modern-language liturgies are closer to the language of our extemporaneous personal prayers may seem plausible. To someone slightly older, it seems specious.
As a child, even though I worshiped in a non-liturgical Protestant church, I never heard anyone address God as "you". As a result, I have always addressed Him in private prayers with the older second-person pronouns. Even though I have subsequently participated in a good many Rite II liturgies, I have never been moved to update the language of my ex tempore prayers.
I would therefore suggest that those of who use "everyday" language in their private devotions do so because they have been exposed to such language through revised liturgies and Bible translations. For this reason, I am confident that a return to what some call "hieratic English" in public worship would in due course transform our personal prayers.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I was born long before 1960 and the idea of using archaic language in private or public prayer now seems bizarre. Maybe it didn't so much when everyone used it.
There does seem to be a pond difference here. I think it's only a minority of anglo-catholic churches in England use 'traditional' language rites (equivalent of TEC Rite 1). Probably because until recently the RCs were using the same texts as us for much of the liturgy, a-cs have felt more comfortable with modern language. Most MOTR and evangelical churches take it for granted. You are more likely to encounter Tudor English (apart from cathedral Choral Evensong) in remote country parishes or very establishment old-fashioned MOTR places.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
I expect a higher level of literacy amongst Episcopalians!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
I expect a higher level of literacy amongst Episcopalians!
That's precisely what I tell them.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I'll take a chance and suggest that one reason for using Rite II may be the availability of some rather good modern language congregational Mass settings, not that there aren't a few perfectly good trad language settings. I especially like the Schubert/Proulx Mass. Am I way off base in this thinking?
[ 09. February 2013, 21:19: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I'll take a chance and suggest that one reason for using Rite II may be the availability of some rather good modern language congregational Mass settings, not that there aren't a few perfectly good trad language settings. I especially like the Schubert/Proulx Mass. Am I way off base in this thinking?
Yes. The Schubert setting is slow and airy. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
My question at the end was not intended to relate to the Schubert/Proulx Mass but to my thinking that the wide availability of modern language Mass settings may have contributed to the use of Rite II in some A-C parishes.
Nevertheless, I think I like the Schubert/Proulx because it is slow and airy.
[ 09. February 2013, 21:51: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
Whaddathey say when you lead Rite I prayers from the 1979 BCP?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
Whaddathey say when you lead Rite I prayers from the 1979 BCP?
They think he's reading Beowolf, no doubt.
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BenjaminS
Apprentice
# 13224
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Posted
Episcopal Church of the Blessed Sacrament, Placentia in the Diocese of Los Angeles uses Rite I. When I was a parishoner there a few years ago, they would switch to Rite II for anything that didn't have a Rite I version in the BCP--Baptisms, Easter Vigil, etc.
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
All Saints, San Diego, seems to be emphatically Rite I. They make it clear in the third sentence of their website home page close on the heels of a welcome.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, it's just that A-C Rite I/'28 places are a bit of a hobby horse for me, because so many American Anglo-Catholics I know like to allege that the Rite I of that evil 1979 BCP inevitably turns into the hellish formularies of Rite II.
This short article (pdf), found on the "Catholic FAQs" page of the St Paul's Riverside (IL) parish to which I linked above, seems to explain that particular POV. It sounds a bit legalistic/conspiracy-theorist to me.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
That's a very belaboured explanation! I don't think I should enjoy the atmosphere at that parish, if the essay was any indicator of the prevailing zeitgeist. I'm very much a Rite I person, but I don't perceive liturgical plots lurking everywhere.
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Healey Willan's Missa Sancta Maria Magdalena may be beloved of the Lord, but the Dirndlmesse (AKA Schubert/Proulx) is an abomination.
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Iakovos
Shipmate
# 623
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Posted
A little late to this thread, but my home church, Trinity, in the Village of Ossining NY uses Rite 1 as its principal service.
www.trinityossining.org
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Lymasa
Shipmate
# 11397
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Posted
St. Mary's in Burlington NJ uses Rite I consistently- also the 1940 hymnal. And the women in the choir wear beanies. . .
www.stmarysburlington.org
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
To those who were born after 1960, the argument that modern-language liturgies are closer to the language of our extemporaneous personal prayers may seem plausible. To someone slightly older, it seems specious.
As a child, even though I worshiped in a non-liturgical Protestant church, I never heard anyone address God as "you". As a result, I have always addressed Him in private prayers with the older second-person pronouns. Even though I have subsequently participated in a good many Rite II liturgies, I have never been moved to update the language of my ex tempore prayers.
I would therefore suggest that those of who use "everyday" language in their private devotions do so because they have been exposed to such language through revised liturgies and Bible translations. For this reason, I am confident that a return to what some call "hieratic English" in public worship would in due course transform our personal prayers.
Taking that to its logical end, why not go all the way back to Latin?
I too was born before 1960. I was raised on Tridentine Latin masses as well as the 1928 BCP. But I was happy that the liturgy a la the Novus Ordo and the 1979 BCP was in "contemporary" English because that is what is spoken in the Anglophone society of which I am a part. And in my personal praying it is natural for me to use contemporary language.
That said, I have no problem with "traditional" English and I appreciate its beauty.
To each one's own with all respect and love (hippy that I guess I am ).
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The sort of Anglo-Catholics I grew up with used modern language for the Mass and traditional language for sung MP and EP. Weekday MP and EP tended to be ML.
In the USA there seems to be no strong move towards Rite II on the part of Anglo-Catholics. I have a theory that the hardshell A/C places tend to stick with the Missal with minimal concessions to Rite I, quite a lot seem to be Rite I with added Catholic bits with the odd Rite II Mass (usually to appease the PTBs) and some are predominately or all Rite II.
My impression is that Rite II is a little more common in the Midwest (former Biretta Belt) than on the East Coast, but that is purely subjective. I suspect the Midwest has a bit less of a Merrie England subtext to its Anglo-Catholicism which, like the English variety, makes it more likely that it is going to conform to the norms exhibited by "Big Sis."
In my experience here in the Southwest, the Rite I free zones are likely to be 'MOTR' rather than High or Anglo-Catholic. My own preference tends to be for traditional language, but a simpler ceremonial. That is probably because I am a product of the change over period.
PD
[ 21. February 2013, 14:30: Message edited by: PD ]
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
quote:
My impression is that Rite II is a little more common in the Midwest (former Biretta Belt) than on the East Coast, but that is purely subjective.
That is my experience as well. The general idea is that Biretta belt Anglo-Catholicism is of a more Novus Ordo flavor (we pride ourselves on doing the NO 'better than the Catholics'), while East Coast Anglo-Catholicism is both older and more liturgically advanced. There are always exceptions, of course, but you won't find nearly as many Missal or Anglican Service Book parishes in the Midwest as out east.
[ 21. February 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Greek Catholic
Apprentice
# 12930
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Posted
Christ Church, New Haven, CT uses Rite I at the (liturgical) east facing high altar for the principal Mass on Sundays and holy days. There is also a Rite I low Mass early on Sunday mornings in the Lady chapel (also ad orientem), and a sung Mass Rite II on a free standing altar (versus populum) in the crossing outside the screen between the two Rite I Masses. Though occasionally this Rite II Mass will be said at the high altar with the congregation in the choir stalls. Weekday Masses are also in the chapel and are Rite I or II depending on the day, but always ad orientem. The daily offices, either morning prayer or evening prayer, are also Rite I.
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Christ Church New Haven features a wonderful choir and organist, Tom Murray, who is University Organist at Yale and one of the finest proponents of the Romantic organ repertoire.
On a sadder note, St. Nicholas of Myra Church, Encino, California, one of the few Rite I parishes on the West Coast, recently disbanded its choir and is currently without an organist. It is hoped that this is a temporary situation. Apparently, financial pressures are to blame.
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Levavi
Shipmate
# 14371
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Posted
I offer this list of parishes (all on the US East Coast) that in my direct experience are intentionally Anglo-Catholic AND offer Rite I (or another version of "traditional language") at their principal Sunday Mass, if not at all services. Even among parishes merely along the East Coast, I'm sure this is far from comprehensive. Please note I have left off parishes that are somewhere in the vaguer High Church category (not that there's anything wrong with those places):
St. Stephen's, Providence, Rhode Island
St. John the Evangelist, Newport, Rhode Island
Christ Church, New Haven, CT
Church of the Advent, Boston
All Saints Ashmont, Boston
St. Ignatius of Antioch, NYC
Transfiguration, NYC
Resurrection, NYC
St. Clement's, Philadelphia
Good Shepherd, Rosemont, PA
Grace and St. Peter's, Baltimore
St. Paul's K Street, DC
Ascension & St. Agnes, DC
Holy Communion, Charleston, SC
Our Saviour, Atlanta
St. Paul's, Savannah, GA
Again, I'm sure there are many more examples!
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Fr. M.Tucker
Apprentice
# 17612
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Posted
My parish, Christ Church in Bordentown, NJ, uses Rite I w. some Missal and the ASB where the 79 Book doesn't provide a traditional-language option. Offices and Masses daily (except Mondays), Rosary on Wednesdays.
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Fr. Matt
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I was born long before 1960 and the idea of using archaic language in private or public prayer now seems bizarre. Maybe it didn't so much when everyone used it.
There does seem to be a pond difference here. I think it's only a minority of anglo-catholic churches in England use 'traditional' language rites (equivalent of TEC Rite 1). Probably because until recently the RCs were using the same texts as us for much of the liturgy, a-cs have felt more comfortable with modern language. Most MOTR and evangelical churches take it for granted. You are more likely to encounter Tudor English (apart from cathedral Choral Evensong) in remote country parishes or very establishment old-fashioned MOTR places.
I am t'other way about. I was born at the end of the 1960s and use old language in private prayer. Part of the "problem" is that I grew up in the rural North of England so thee and thou - more accurately, the universal "tha" - was still in use in daily speech.
PD
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
What's Blessed Sacrament, Placentia, CA up to these days? They were "Rite 1 with bells on" the last time I talked with one of their clergy. They may or may not have been Rite Two on a Satuday then, but I think that was about it.
Thankfully, +Bruno has always been pretty happy about letting them fly below the radar. Actually shouldn't that be above for an Anglo-Catholic parish?
PD
[ 02. April 2013, 19:58: Message edited by: PD ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Part of the "problem" is that I grew up in the rural North of England so thee and thou - more accurately, the universal "tha" - was still in use in daily speech.
PD
Interesting. I grew up in a working class family in West (now North) Yorkshire and 'thee-thou' was never used, except by our Lancastrian relations. Maybe it was a bit of aspirational class consciousness on the part of my parents.
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