Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Clergy shirts
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christianbuddhist
Apprentice
# 17579
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Posted
Does anyone know what the various shirt colours (and types of collar!) say about churchmanship? Especially in the Church of England?
My impression is as follows but I will gladly be corrected.
Black - anglo-catholic Grey - broad, probably still uses the ASB Light blue - evo Dark blue - con-evo Green - hospital chaplain Multi-coloured - a bit of a maverick
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I never really connected the color of clerical shirts to churchmanship. So far as I've seen, bishops wear purple, and clerics with good taste wear black.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Well a vicar I know wears all of those, plus a brown one, a fawn one and a striped one.
It is probably true that anglo catholics wear black, or don't wear coloured shirts. Other than that I know clergy who wear many different coloured shirts.
Last week our vicar turned up in a peacock blue one and I have seen many a female clergy-person wearing a pink shirt, and last week I saw one wearing a maroon one(a bit too close to purple for my liking)
The church I used to belong to the (female) curate wore flowered and patterned shirts in many colours and IIRC, she even had a gold one.
You may have to update your chart of the meaning of colours...
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think for male clergy it goes -
black: it's very slimming grey: heterosexual light blue: it's what everybody else at college was ordering dark blue: it's what I thought everybody else at college was ordering green: there's a baby in the house. The stains don't show as much multi-coloured: the yoof are so important.
Or something like that. And obviously I wouldn't dream of speaking for my female colleagues.
[ETA: welcome aboard, christianbuddhist!] [ 01. March 2013, 16:03: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
 Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: I know one who wears mustard-yellow. he is a member of the conservative evangelical Reform.
There's a local Lutheran pastor who regularly wears the same -- it's the color of butterscotch pudding.
-------------------- "I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Never really made a connection with churchmanship, but the standard here would be black, grey if it's very hot outside, any shade of blue if you are a hospital chaplain and green if you are an army chaplain or church army trained.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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seasick
 ...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Mine are all black... I find that to be a very adequate selection of colours. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
-------------------- We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
My own thinking when I wear: - Black = very trad. can look a bit grim
- Grey = I hope this doesn't look too washed out
- Blue = great colour, people may think I'm a Methodist - especially in a hospital context
- Green = another great colour, No-one knows whether this has any meaning, so it's very noncommittal
Colours I don't wear: - Pinstripe =
should have proper collar and tie, and a suit - Pastels = not good colours for me
- Yellow or orange = see Pastels
- Red = good colour for me, but suggests I think I ought to be a chaplain to the queen
- Purple = also a good colour for me, but looks as if I have episcopal ambitions, and leads to humorous remarks or genuine confusion
I had my colours done some time ago, and apparently strong colours suit me - black, green, blue, purple red… Not all of them are ones I can wear as clerical shirts.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Spike
 Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by christianbuddhist: Grey - broad, probably still uses the ASB
Unlikely as ASB is no longer authorised and hasn't been for quite some time, but would probably use Eucharistic Prayer F or H in Common Worship.
-------------------- "May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
 Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Black shirt--new shirt The Fairtrade clerical shirts tend to fade after a few washes, so: Grey shirt--old shirt, must get some dye.
-------------------- At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Adam.
 Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Also all-black for me in the clerical wardrobe department. Non-black shirt says African to me (whether birth or long-time ministry). Black shirt with pale slacks says West Coast. The interesting one to try and read now (in US Catholic circles) is tab collar vs. full round collar. I have both, but reserve the full round for special occasions: in my head, full collar = tie; tab = shirt, no tie (in terms of lay formality).
-------------------- Ave Crux, Spes Unica! Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
Bold striped tunic ( barristers') shirt with double cuffs worn with clerical collar and fancy cufflinks under a discreetly concealing clerical waistcoat or Rabat - Anglo-Catholic maverick and old friend from college.
-------------------- Collecting Catholic and Anglo- Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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seasick
 ...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I have full collars, tonsure collars and tab collars and have a similar mental process as regards levels of formality.
-------------------- We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
 Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amos: Black shirt--new shirt The Fairtrade clerical shirts tend to fade after a few washes, so: Grey shirt--old shirt, must get some dye.
Laughs. I always suspect grey is tired black.
I much prefer to see clerics in black. Not keen on other colours while Floral is horrible and White just strange.
Carys
(Missed autocorrect weirdness) [ 01. March 2013, 20:28: Message edited by: Carys ]
-------------------- O Lord, you have searched me and know me You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
When I was ordained 25 years ago white was kind of progressive Carflick. I wore only black or white - the fawns and blues and mustards were the preserve of Protestants. Later I dropped white, a) because I can't wear white without attracting Bolognese, and b) because I became for a while a strictly black priest.
These days I rarely wear them except for liturgical events, and then only black, but I no longer do the black priest thing (black trousers, shoes, sox, shirt, jumper ... not least because it's too bloody hot up here)
For a short time a sort of burgundy came out but I remember Archbishop Penman banning it as too close to purple.
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Amos
 Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I share Hart's and Seasick's take on full and tab collars. I don't wear a tonsure one; I dislike the snaps.
The barrister's shirt with rabat (always black) and clerical collar was very Staggers a few years ago.
-------------------- At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Spike
 Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I remember attending an ordination service about 20 years ago where one of the ordinands wore a pale yellow clerical shirt. His wife wore a dress of exactly the same colour. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
-------------------- "May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amos: I share Hart's and Seasick's take on full and tab collars. I don't wear a tonsure one; I dislike the snaps.
The barrister's shirt with rabat (always black) and clerical collar was very Staggers a few years ago.
My friend was indeed a Staggers Bag, although a few years further back than that.
-------------------- Collecting Catholic and Anglo- Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Black and only black. I have all the various kinds of collars except real linen. They scare me. Also, it is EVIL that certain collars and studs only fit certain brands. It's like being tied to a chain store. Ugh!
I've never worn the white shirt and rabat. Looks cool. No, it looks hot! (either sense).
I miss the days of being barefoot at the altar, and clergy dress being black shorts, open neck short sleeve white shirt with a cross around the neck. Works for me.
Most of the time, either in black shirt, collar that came with the thing, black trousers, black socks and black shoes with a black jacket. I also wear a modest crucifix, and walk around with an Australian hat and staring at an iPhone.
Mufti is same as above sans clergy shirt and collar.
Formal is cassock.
In my wardrobe, there is a grey clergy shirt hanging just out of reach. I have no idea how it got there. I don't even know the size. PM me if anybody wants it.
-------------------- All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Triple Tiara
 Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
In the RC Church colours are certainly no guide to any particular outlook. Even the most conservative of Cardinals sometimes sport colours other than black. Some Cardinals even wear pale blue .
Ordinarily I would wear black, but if it is sweltering I do have a few white shirts as well.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Circuit Rider
 Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
Here in the Untied Methodist Church clericals are optional and there is no set color scheme, so one will see all colors. Just like our liturgy which no one is required to use.
Sometimes I see bishops wearing purple and elders wearing black.
Personally I wear only black shirts. Tab collar for weekdays and band collar for Sunday and special occasions.
-------------------- I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
With apologies to my fellow Ozzie Zappa - my wardrobe has a mix of both black and white tonsure shirts, 50/50 black and white (no, not on the same shirt!). In my former diocese of Bathurst summer was so hot that an open neck shirt with with either collar crosses or a simple crucifix was uniform.
Here in the Diocese of Sydney, even that sort of official attire is the exception rather than the usual - hence why I am more 'black' here when out and about.
-------------------- Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Reminds me of what Henry Ford said when asked if he would allow the Model T to come out in color:
You can have any color you want----
so long as it's black.
Never did like clerical shirts/collars. Usually wear a nice tie.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I've been surprised to see RC and Orthodox priests in ties (of course pretending not to notice)., and surprised to see Methodists in collars blue or grey short, IIRC (and pretending not to notice.) I've usually seen Lutheran clergy in clericals most of the time.
And certain Anglican/Episcopal types who seem veritably ashamed to be forced into a a collar. And one or two who for whom "high church" is a mustard yellow clerical collar or what have you with jeans and ghastly homemade stole replete with personal symbols and/or their kids photos ironed onto it and perhaps a dry cleaners tag pinned on it.
Sorry for sounding judgemental.
There is also a class of lay people who love clerical shirts. At least in my acquaintance. A few I've met are sincere Christians but have deep spiritual and other problems. (Sorry--issues). They are often ordained by printing out a certificate from some kind of website, and then type in their credit card numbers at Wippels. They attend on Sunday, but "practice Mass" at home, and I've seen a few in hospitals. These shirts aren't just for clergy any more
-------------------- All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Ordinarily I would wear black, but if it is sweltering I do have a few white shirts as well. [/QB]
OOh a tropical uniform
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Adam.
 Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amos: I share Hart's and Seasick's take on full and tab collars. I don't wear a tonsure one; I dislike the snaps.
OK, this thread is now showing up a lacuna in my formation. What's the difference between a tonsure and a full collar? What I call my full one has snaps, does that mean it's a tonsure collar?
As for ties, I've never understood why a cleric would wear a tie. I can understand that there are contexts where you dispense with clericals and wear something more informal, but I don't see a good reason for wearing non-clerical formal wear.
-------------------- Ave Crux, Spes Unica! Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The stripy shirt with a vestock or rabat over it was once worn by pretty much all clergy in the UK, regardless of churchmanship or denomination: it was about the only form that existed. It certainly looks smart with a jacket or suit and is still worn by older (often very old) clergy, and maybe the 'young fogeys' of any churchmanship. It is also worn by some for formal occasions. Again, the Armed Forces require their chaplains to wear this style on some occasions (but with white cuffs showing).
Robert Runcie, and all archbishops of Canterbury before him always wore a vestock like that - in purple, but in RR's case, with a double neck band. George Carey was the first ABC to wear a clerical shirt.
I don't think the colours have a real churchmanship meaning any more. There was a time when the style did say something (a ring-of-confidence or tab or small opening etc) but I have noticed a former President of the Baptist Union wear a black tonture shirt showing a 'Roman' collar.
I have noticed that more modern shirts seem to have a taller collar ( 1 1/4" instead of 1") and a smaller pice of white showing at the front, but this is proably the preference of clergy i happen to have seen. An example of this is in the picture shown in Triple Tiara's link.
The recent fad in the CofE seems to be bishops who eshew the purple shirt in favour of black: Rowan Williams; Eric Kemp; John Hind; John Ford (Plymouth); Justin Welby, to name a few.
I have never seen the above bishops wearing anything other than black - and never purple.
The media sometimes interpet what they describe as 'simple black' as a sign of humility.
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hart: quote: Originally posted by Amos: I share Hart's and Seasick's take on full and tab collars. I don't wear a tonsure one; I dislike the snaps.
OK, this thread is now showing up a lacuna in my formation. What's the difference between a tonsure and a full collar? What I call my full one has snaps, does that mean it's a tonsure collar?
This may not be accurate, but when I hear "full collar," I think of the white strip of either plastic or linen or whatever that goes all the way around the neck, as favored by my Presiding Bishop. Synonyms include "jampot" and "ring of confidence," I think.
If it has a black overlay on top of it to create the effect of a cassock collar, whether the overlay is part of the shirt which snaps onto the white part, or a separate piece that slides over the bottom of the white part, that's what I understand as a "tonsure collar." The Archdeacon from rev. seems to favor these.
And in my little corner of the world, wearing clerical shirts at all marks one as either Roman Catholic or a little strange. The last (Lutheran) conference (like a deanery, I think) meeting I went to, apart from the celebrant and assistants at worship, I could count the clerical collars among the several dozen clergyfolk on one hand, and that included mine (I'm a seminarian on internship). I have a feeling that if it wasn't on a Sunday afternoon with some people coming straight from their own shacks' regular Sunday worship, it would have been the celebrant, the assistants, and me, because yeah, I'm a little strange. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) [ 02. March 2013, 14:40: Message edited by: Kayarecee ]
Posts: 25 | From: The Cornfields | Registered: Aug 2012
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christianbuddhist
Apprentice
# 17579
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Posted
Thanks for your replies. Really interesting
Spike originally wrote quote: Unlikely as ASB is no longer authorised and hasn't been for quite some time, but would probably use Eucharistic Prayer F or H in Common Worship.
True. But the grey shirt wearer would know that you can still use ASB morning and evening prayer under Common Worship services of the word provision
Posts: 15 | Registered: Mar 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
There are parishes that still use ASB EP.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
While we're on this subject, I was taught many years ago that the width of the "step" in one's rabat or cassock delineated one's churchmanship. Narrow steps were/are worn by Catholics, Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics; wider steps (2" or more) by Broad Church and Evangelical clergy of the Anglican tradition and by Presbyterians and Free Church Protestants (in part so as to accommodate the wearing of bands). Is there really any truth to all this? I usually wear a neckband collar without a step at all, though I do have a rabat with a wide step, which barely fits nowadays.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
leo: Pink? Better yet: Rainbow Color?
I was not high church, true; but I was not low church either. I was a happy medium. I still wear my Franciscan Alb when I am leading worship.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: There are parishes that still use ASB EP.
Isn't that because everything in it is authorized by CW?
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think you will find Evening Prayer is.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Corvo: quote: Originally posted by ken: There are parishes that still use ASB EP.
Isn't that because everything in it is authorized by CW?
No. Not everything in it is so authorised.
I can't think of anything in ASB Evening Prayer that would not be permitted under the CW rules.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: But CW has its OWN version of EP and it is very different from ASB. For example, the lighting of lamps.
ASB EP is just a modern language form of 1662.
That's true, but if you used the ASB form it would be 'authorized' within the terms of CW. So doing so would not be 'illegal'. Maybe Ken just meant some parishes were using ASB booklets for convenience.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
I have clerical shirts of many colours but only one is patterned - narrow blue and white stripes. I even have one that is canary yellow - but the collar is too tight now. Must get it altered because that shirt is so offensive to wear it gave me great pleasure in winding up other clergy.
Today I am wearing dark-ish green. I only wear clericals when I am doing somethuing religious, as I have been today in deepest rural Norfolk (church in a field, no electricity...)
When I am lecturing, I wear collar and tie.
-------------------- "I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: I think for male clergy it goes -
....grey: heterosexual
Oh - is there a gay one?
It's more a matter of style ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
Likewise, many colours, but hardly ever black---especially not on hospital wards.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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christianbuddhist
Apprentice
# 17579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alisdair: Likewise, many colours, but hardly ever black---especially not on hospital wards.
I think you can get away with black in hospitals as long as you combine it with a nice cardigan or jumper in a cheerful colour. Plain black is too austere, you might as well dress up as Death and have done with it.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Mar 2013
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by christianbuddhist: quote: Originally posted by Alisdair: Likewise, many colours, but hardly ever black---especially not on hospital wards.
I think you can get away with black in hospitals as long as you combine it with a nice cardigan or jumper in a cheerful colour. Plain black is too austere, you might as well dress up as Death and have done with it.
Oh come on!
Men in Black Man in Black
-------------------- All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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cosmic dance
Shipmate
# 14025
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Posted
My vicar insists that clergy shirts are ontologically black....
We have an extroverted evangelical type of vicar out here in the colonies who wears bright yellow or lime green clergy shirts. When he preaches, he loooks like a budgie on steroids.
-------------------- "No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.
Posts: 233 | From: godzone | Registered: Aug 2008
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Amos
 Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by christianbuddhist: quote: Originally posted by Alisdair: Likewise, many colours, but hardly ever black---especially not on hospital wards.
I think you can get away with black in hospitals as long as you combine it with a nice cardigan or jumper in a cheerful colour. Plain black is too austere, you might as well dress up as Death and have done with it.
Nonsense! I've been getting away with plain black on hospital wards for years. A lick of lipstick does the trick.
-------------------- At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Fifty or so years ago, there was a fashion among progressive clergy to wear white ties. It was presented as a modernisation of the mid-nineteenth century white cravate, then worn wrapped round a a high collar and with a high black waistcoat. It never seemed to catch on. I haven't seen it worn for many years.
Unfortunately, perhaps, white ties with black shirts tend to go with dark glasses and a criminal record.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
With all the mentions of shirts of various hues, mustard yellow, lime green, bird's egg blue, road-cone orange and so on it seems that the be all and end all of clerical haberdasher is merely the collar itself.
I can't imagine clergy really wanting to think about the vicissitudes of fashion: having to coordinate and accessorise shirt or blouse and trousers or skirt and socks and shoes and bags and cell phone cover. What statement will I make in the hospital or old folks home or charity event?
Clergy shirts are simply a simplification of the black cassock, worn to free clergy from too much concern for the seductions of fashion week.
Simplicity, being in uniform in public. Saying "I'm here if you need me." Not "love the outfit; where did you get it?"
-------------------- All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Codepoet
 Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
I once met a group of clergy from an Evangelical Lutheran parish in Finland. They were all wearing either black or green. It turn out the black ones were all priests and the green ones were all deacons*.
* Note that in that context the church carries out many functions of the state, and so deacons' duties can be some of the work that in the UK would be carried out by social workers, nurses etc.
[ETA spelling] [ 04. March 2013, 17:55: Message edited by: Codepoet ]
-------------------- It's more important to be kind than to be right.
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