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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The inevitable Papal election (liturgy) thread
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
With the election of a Latin America Jesuit to the Chair of St. Peter, there are bound to be ramifications for the worship of the Roman Catholic church in the Vatican and around the world. I understand that the more 'trad' fringe are already fearing the worst, whilst others are happy at the prospect of a bit of the glitz-and-scarlet-shoes being downplayed.
How do people think the worship and style of worship and liturgy will be impacted? For my part I suspect that Francis I will leave the trad fringe to their own devices but will certainly not make the 'reform of the reform' a priority. While I am liking his outspoken approach to tackling poverty and inequality, as someone who spends a lot of time in Italy and is exposed to a good deal of attempted liturgy I'd be sorry if the importance of worship was entirely forgotten by the new Holy Father!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To throw a tangent straight away, at least there will be, it seems, no dead foxes, given Pope Francis' Erskine-free zone this morning (OZ-time), consistent with his outspoken abhorrence of cruelty to animals... though perhaps the Erskine papal thingy beloved of his predecessor isn't a liturgical garment as such ...
Ermine, probably? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) The skin of same?
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
The ermines must be rejoicing !
Comments on The New Liturgical Movement are not functioning and Rorate Caeil is something to be seen.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
The traditionalist Catholic blogosphere is breaking as we speak. Many have expressed the hope (or at least the probability) that Francis will die soon. What a miserable bunch of human beings.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
The traditionalist Catholic blogosphere is breaking as we speak. Many have expressed the hope (or at least the probability) that Francis will die soon. What a miserable bunch of human beings.
But then comes the news that he set up an Extraordinary Form Mass location within 48 hours of the issuance of Summorum Pontificum; this makes him sound much less against the EF than previously thought.
Some traditional blogs have posted a video of him in procession at a charismatic group's Mass, apparently to elicit gasps of horror. Looked rather ordinary to me; song in Spanish with a few people raising hands. Seems an archbishop does have to attend events that may or may not be in his preferred style, so the video says nothing to me about him.
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
Agreed, Oblatus. If Ratzinger had been ruling a diocese immediately before his election (he had not been a diocesan bishop since 1982, when he left Munich), he probably would have overseen some liturgical 'oddities' as well.
The fact is that Pope is not, at least outwardly, a traditionalist in terms of liturgics. But we really don't have any idea how he is disposed toward liturgical tradition generally, or how his views and practice may change now that he is Pope (people do change, after all, and Rome is not Buenos Aires). We won't know anything for a long time, and it is probably best not to read too much into anything that happens for a little while.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Also - as a Jesuit - surely if the Pope had told him to provide the extrodinary form of the mass, his vows would oblige him to do so sharpish. Regardless of what he thought about it ? So may not tell us much about what he will do next.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Also - as a Jesuit - surely if the Pope had told him to provide the extrodinary form of the mass, his vows would oblige him to do so sharpish. Regardless of what he thought about it ? So may not tell us much about what he will do next.
Sorry for an odd tangent, but as a Jesuit and an archbishop is he under the authority of the Black Pope as well as the Sovereign Pontiff?
[ 14. March 2013, 18:21: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
Good question, CC. I do not know what the specific contours of the relationship between a religious bishop and his order would be. I have asked it in Purg.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
There is a Benedictine expression that we should all keep in mind:
quote:
He looks as confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
There is a Benedictine expression that we should all keep in mind:
quote:
He looks as confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.
He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.
Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I hope he stays stark and sensible. The liturgical whores want reproaching IMO (that includes a bunch of pissy Anglo-Catholics, those of my own tribe who need a good dose of liturgical sensibility).
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.
He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.
Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.
For someone not RC, Triple Tiara could you give examples of his rubrical inaccuracy and in what waysit was minimalist.
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Mary, a priest??
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I hate to think I am examining the Pope for his Liturgy grades, and this is really going to mark me out as a liturgical anorak! But since this is Ecclesiantics and you did ask...... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The starkness was in the style, which was quiet, reserved and intensely personal. He said, rather than sang, everything. He preached from the lectern rather than the chair, with mitre off. He took his own mitre off, rather than having a flunky do it, as is the way with the grander prelates.
The rubrical shortcomings I noticed were minor, but nevertheless there: he was too quick to replace the paten on the altar after the doxology, not waiting for the Great Amen to end. This is a frequent error by many priests. By contrast I recall poor JPII in Johannesburg after the Synod for Africa in about 1994/5 when they sang an interminable Great Amen (it's become popular worldwide: "Masithi, Amen, siyakudumisa.... Amen, Bawo. Amen Bawo. Amen siyakudumisa") It's long enough in one language, but South Africa has several languages and the tune fits them all! So it gets repeated over and over and over in different languages. After the first one (Zulu) ended, JPII started to replace the paten on the altar when they struck up in Sotho. So he raised the paten a little again. Same thing again at the end, when he started to lower the paten they struck up in English - and then Afrikaans!!!! The Pope looked thoroughly fed up by the end of it. I was very amused.
Pope Francis also did not genuflect after the words of institution and opted for a bow, which was rather odd.
But these are refinements rather than major issues. His Mass was very prayerful I thought: attentive and intense.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
OK, goodon him, I say. I'm so tired of liturgical pissiness in my own bit of my own ecclesial community that I'd like to think Pope Francis might function as a kind of essential corrective. As to not singing certain bits, well I do hope the Sursum Corda and Preface were sung. And the absence of the genuflections after the greater elevations would bother me a bit, though bows are very English Use (aka Sarum). ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Well, being Supreme Pontiff and an absolute monarch should count for something, like being able to say what you want at the Urbi et Orbi Address and having Mass the way you want it.
I guess I'm a little confused about Jesuits and their supposed slackness. The RC priest in my town is a Jesuit, he wears his cassock to the post office in the fall, winter and spring, clericals for summer. He owns and wears a biretta to go with said cassock.
The locals say (in approving tones) that there hasn't been such a visible Catholic presence in town since the Grey Nuns left.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Francis I is 76 - perhaps he has the difficulties common to many his age in many genuflections? He certainly did reverence the MBS with his bow.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Former NYC archbishop, 82 i think, said in an interview that he thought the future pope seemed to him quite agile. Some folks in their 70s are in better shape than some folks in their 50s.
Regarding bowing to the MBS, maybe the new pope is a Dearmerite at heart.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
But then comes the news that he set up an Extraordinary Form Mass location within 48 hours of the issuance of Summorum Pontificum; this makes him sound much less against the EF than previously thought.
It didn't last long:
http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.ie/2013/03/an-apology-to-rorate-caeli-and.html
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Regarding bowing to the MBS, maybe the new pope is a Dearmerite at heart.
Or maybe at the age of 76 he needs to look after his knees! [Sorry, I missed Gee D's comment saying the same thing]
I thought his sermon was superb... and despite my rudimentary Italian I understood nearly every word. Incidentally I suppose Italian might count as his first language since both his parents were from Turin... though it depends upon what they generally spoke at home.
[ 15. March 2013, 10:50: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I shouldn't have specified - just noting what I noted. As I said, it's just fine tuning in my book.
I don't think there's anything wrong with his knees - he spent quite a lot of time on them earlier in the day in Sta Maria Maggiore.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I thought his sermon was superb... and despite my rudimentary Italian I understood nearly every word. Incidentally I suppose Italian might count as his first language since both his parents were from Turin... though it depends upon what they generally spoke at home.
On this note, I am reliably informed that he grew up speaking Astiacci (sp?), a dialect specific to the Asti Province from which his parents had emigrated. He only learnt formal Italian much later for ecclesiastical purposes. His accent is apparently quite pleasing, however - 'he sounds like a grandad' was how it was put to me.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Apparently, at his audience this morning with the Cardinals, Pope Francis nearly took a nosedive while descending the steps from his chair. Additionally, some have noted that he needed a bit of assistance yesterday during mass in the Sistine Chapel.
The guy's legs/knees/hips/etc. may not be in the greatest shape ever. I know priests younger than him who can't really genuflect, or save it only for certain occasions because it is difficult. But he has no obligation to discuss the condition of his lower body with us, and I'm sure he will continue to do whatever he needs to do.
[ 15. March 2013, 17:08: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162
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Posted
Maybe he realises that genuflecting when behind the altar just looks plain daft? And if he doesn't have a specially good singing voice, it makes sense to say everything.
I never thought the day would come when I find myself defending the liturgical practice of the Bishop of Rome.......
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Well, with a stark Jesuit as Pope, there goes any chance of seeing the Triple Tiara in action during this papacy, it's yearly appearance on St. Peter's statue notwithstanding.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
And if he doesn't have a specially good singing voice, it makes sense to say everything.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that His Holiness is tone deaf.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I don't suppose having one lung helps.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
In the US I'm sure EWTN will be carrying it, live and repeat, though unless one has more than basic cable they would be out of luck (at least in Atlanta).
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.
He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.
Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.
Minimalist ? Cardinals in golden robes celebrating in the Sistine chapel, golden vessels, golden cross ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Minimalist is a design feature not a comment on lack of quality or expense.
I know that I have seen the "Presbyterian"* chapel at Dunham Massey. White washed walls, plain benches (of the best quality English Oak), plain dark blue curtains (in the best quality velvet), the plate, cup and bowl are of limited adornment, I think just an inscription (but with high quality precious metal). The cloths used plain (top quality pure Irish Linen). You get the picture.
Yes this Reformed Christian is aesthetically more "at home" among the minimalist religious than in your average parish mass.
Jengie
* In scare quotes because though that is the tradition that it comes from, who ever heard of a Presbyterian private chapel South of the Border.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Here we are my fellow Ecclesiantics: the liturgy for Tuesday. Strangely there doesn't appear to be any liturgical dancers, folk groups or crass hymns. I do hope Cardinal Mahoney doesn't find it too trying.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It appears there will be singing involved.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Here we are my fellow Ecclesiantics: the liturgy for Tuesday. Strangely there doesn't appear to be any liturgical dancers, folk groups or crass hymns. I do hope Cardinal Mahoney doesn't find it too trying.
Wot, no flags!
Well, I suppose it is only a warm-up for the big event on Thursday.
And I do Like the BBC's take on it here, where they refer to Anglicanism and Catholicism as "Christianity's two great churches". So much for the beardy-weirdies from the east.
[ 17. March 2013, 09:48: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
They always time these things for when most of us are at work (or in bed depending on which continent you're on). I'd have liked to see this.
[ 17. March 2013, 09:55: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
They always time these things for when most of us are at work (or in bed depending on which continent you're on). I'd have liked to see this.
I don't know where you are, Orphalese, but there may be repeat broadcasts (as noted above i think that will be the case where i am -- Atlanta.) Also perhaps the Internet?
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Internet's out because of bandwidth, but they might have the highlights on the news.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
And I do Like the BBC's take on it here, where they refer to Anglicanism and Catholicism as "Christianity's two great churches". So much for the beardy-weirdies from the east.
As an Anglican, yuck, yuck, yuck. Not just ignoring the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Reformed, the Methodists, the Pentecostals and all those fast growing evangelical third world bodies...
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think we could file that with "Fog in the channel; continent cut off."
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Everything we've heard about the ermine is (allegedly) true. Nice story here:
quote:
[T]he Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.
"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I think we could file that with "Fog in the channel; continent cut off."
![[Smile]](smile.gif) No wonder that the English think they are soft and cuddly and can't understand why other nationals think they are smug and arrogant.
Like liberal Christians who think it is wonderful to have a national church, without realizing the UK doesn't have a national church, and the bits that aren't England have other Christian bodies independent of the C of E.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I note that Pope Francis retained Benedict's practice of six candles and a crucifix on the altar at the Church of St Ann this morning.
Benedict always had the candles on the front of the altar; Francis has them staggered along the side. Is there some mystical meaning in one way or the other or is it simply a matter of preference?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.
He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.
Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.
Minimalist ? Cardinals in golden robes celebrating in the Sistine chapel, golden vessels, golden cross ?
Yeah but he said mass facing the wrong direction, among other things.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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