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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » The inevitable Papal election (liturgy) thread (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: The inevitable Papal election (liturgy) thread

...over the edge
# 48

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I'd say that the two-way thing as outlined by Angloid is the key thing. Incidentally, that description is very similar to the one given in the British Methodist report "What is a presbyter?" ISTM that the point you're in danger of great muddledness is when one of those two sides gets out of balance with the other.

We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
# 13472

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I believe the notion of the priest being a representative of the people, for which reason the priest should start the service among the people, or at least process to the front from the congregation, is stressed in Richard Giles' "Creating Uncommon Worship". Which I take as strong evidence that the idea is muddle-headed, wrong, and every effort should be made to oppose it.

Agreed. That book should be retitled "Destroying Common Prayer."

"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
# 13515

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Re. the priest representing the Church, I have to agree with Trisagion.

The priest represents the Church to the Father only in as much as he represents Christ.

It is not the priest or the community or the Church without its Head who make representation to the Father, but it is Christ, through his humanity, who represents all people to God. Christ is the head of his Church. He is the one mediator between God and humanity. He is the Priest and Victim, and he takes all sin upon himself and offers himself as a worthy Sacrifice.

Surely the priest represents the 'people' (who are far more than the gathered community - but extend in time and space to encompass the whole Church of God), solely through his representation of Christ, who is the High Priest.

Rather than suggesting that the priest represents two different persons or objects, it is more correct to say the priest 'represents' one person in two different ways: (1) The priest represents Christ to the people - and in so doing re-presents to us the Sacrifice of Christ on calvary, and offers God's forgiveness for the remission of sins. (2) The priest represents Christ to the Father - the Christ who took upon himself our sins and the priest re-presenting to the Father that one perfect Sacrifice on Calvary, and in so doing begs the Father's forgiveness for the sins of the world.

The priest representing the people of God as distinct from his representation of Christ makes no sense. The priest is not an unblemished, pure, holy, spotless Victim. That representation to the Father is insignificant compared to the sacrifice of Christ - it is like the sacrifices of old covenant, only a foretaste of what is to come.

[ 22. March 2013, 23:43: Message edited by: angelicum ]

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# 159

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Put like that, it makes sense.

Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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# 5235

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Many thanks, Angelicum. I've been unconscionably busy over the last few days and hadn't the time to come back and explain what I meant. You have done it very well for me. What had concerned me was the word 'representative'. It's connotations - democratic, legatine or typical - all seemed to me to distort Catholic understandings of priesthood out of all recognition.

ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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# 16669

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Thank you very much. I'm very concerned in the Church of England the sacramental character of the ordained priesthood is denied or downplayed with talk of "the priesthood of all believers".

I'm also concerned at clericalism, and, although it rarely looks that way, a sacramental character should overcome that (in so far as the personal character of the priests is not the most important thing about them).

I didn't mean "democratic representative" by saying "representative". I meant actualised symbolic representative of the people, in so far as they are the body of Christ the great high priest.

Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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# 15147

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The Being and Doing (sometimes perhaps erroneously separated) of a bishop, priest, or deacon, is magnificently expressed in the catholic and reformed Ordinal of the BCP, and carried into subsequent ordinals of the Church of England. Although not technically regarded as a sacrament, but that is possible historical and theological semantics for reasons we all know and are well rehearsed, the powerful and explanatory words do appear to preserve a catholic and sacramental notion of ordained ministry. Perhaps more modern ordinals make this even more explicit.

I recently attended the ordination (or 'making' for those who prefer) of a deacon in the Church of England. This happened to be by the Bishop to the Forces in the chapel of HMS Drake, Plymouth.

The service was moving and explicit in its sacramental character. The sermon, the vows, the laying on of hands, the vesting, all illustrated something permanent and symbolic of the diakonia of the whole church, and also the ordained deacon sharing in the diakonia of Christ. Thus something representative from below, as it were, and something from above.

One interesting diaconal liturgical action took place right at the end. It was strikingly sacramental, and powerfully 'anti-clerical' in what it said:

the bishop changed places with the new deacon. The deacon sat on the bishop's chair and the ordaining bishop washed his feet.


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# 16470

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Guido Marini was wearing his usual rochet/cotta at Easter.

She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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