|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Anglican bishops in black cassocks
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
I'm not sure if this should be a 'new topic' but here goes.
Today on his prayer pilgrimage to Norwich, I noted that Archbishop Justin Welby wore a simple black double breasted cassock with black cincture. Interestingly, the bishop of Norwich accompanying him wore a Latin style purple cassock.
Rowan Williams used to wear a black Latin cassock with purple cincture (like the RCs) but without piping. On ceremonial occasions he would wear the purple cassock.
There is a trend amongst some Anglican bishops now to wear the black shirt and not the purple one. This has tended to be adopted by the 'Higher' variety, although ++Justin is not one of those.
Is there a precedent for the wearing of black cassocks by the Anglican episcopate? What might this mean? Will it spread? What are shipmates opinions on this?
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Strikingly paralleled by Pope Francis's refusal to don the mozzetta or an elaborate pectoral cross. I imagine the new simplicity is on its way (not before time).
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
Weren't purple cassocks a 20th fashion anyway?
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Strikingly paralleled by Pope Francis's refusal to don the mozzetta or an elaborate pectoral cross. I imagine the new simplicity is on its way (not before time).
Come to think of it, they have similar faces, don't you agree?
Pope - Archbishop of Canterbury
--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Come to think of it, they have similar faces, don't you agree?
Pope - Archbishop of Canterbury
Could there be the makings of a TV reality show here? "Bishop Swap" or "Undercover Prelate" perhaps?
[ 15. March 2013, 03:31: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Ears. You can tell them apart by the ears. I will have to think long and hard about their different ears and what they might hear differently.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
They're the George and Nicholas of our time!
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
Bishops in black cassocks,
Never reaching an end,
Letters I've written,
Never meaning to send.
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Strikingly paralleled by Pope Francis's refusal to don the mozzetta or an elaborate pectoral cross. I imagine the new simplicity is on its way (not before time).
Polyester horse-blankets uber alles. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
The use of black certainly looks very dignified -rather more so than purple, I think.
I do wish that someone would put ++Juston's white plastic bit in for him as it always loolks as if it is hanging out. With DB cassocks a full collar looks better.
Pope Francis looks just a little like Pope Pius XI (Achille Ratti) on the front of some newpapers yeaterday.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Strikingly paralleled by Pope Francis's refusal to don the mozzetta or an elaborate pectoral cross. I imagine the new simplicity is on its way (not before time).
Polyester horse-blankets uber alles.
How about this for a joint declaration from the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury? - "We don't care what your vestments are made of, as long as they or the fabric weren't made in a sweatshop."
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
But when did purple come into fashion? I'm guessing about the time that bright red chimeres came in. The gleam of purple, white, red and black is indeed striking. I COULD research it on Google, but surely some Eccles denizen knows exactly where these Episcopal fashions came from.
The purple or blue shirt worn by certain kinds of bishops, the semiprecious ring and all that. Someone knows where all that came from and now the fashion is changing to something simpler.
I've seen priests wear purple cassocks that same as bishop because at one time or other they were a "canon" or "dean" of something or other, or they received a doctorate in something before being ordained (or after).
I've seen old saintly queenly types squirming in glee about having their cassocks and birettas piped because they were getting an honorary something or other.
Sounds like I'm knocking it. Surely all this is better than people who proudly care nothing at all about any of this?
An old Jewish friend once admitted that he thinks everyone one else at the shul prays too fast or too slow--and everyone else agrees with him too.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
And I wish more Anglican bishops would content themselves with black chimeres.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I thought vestments were supposed to be made of natural fibres ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
(I have a hankering for the pope to modernise, and wear a white linen suit and a panama hat with a white band. Don't think it will happen.)
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
A certain Bishop of New Westminster was heard sorrowfully observing that people treated him differently because he wore a purple shirt than a black one. His martyrdom turned into irkdom when an academic at the table suggested that he return to wearing a black shirt.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif) Don't quite follow. But I do hate those frilly sleeves.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
If a bishop doesn't want to wear a chasuble, I'd far rather he wore a rochet and chimere than cope and mitre.
I don't see how they are a sign of hot protestantism. I believe Bishop Hooper of Gloucester refused to wear them as a rag of popery.
They are the English form of a bishop's choir dress, which has its Roman equivalent.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If a bishop doesn't want to wear a chasuble, I'd far rather he wore a rochet and chimere than cope and mitre.
I don't see how they are a sign of hot protestantism. I believe Bishop Hooper of Gloucester refused to wear them as a rag of popery.
They are the English form of a bishop's choir dress, which has its Roman equivalent.
The advantage of cope and mitre is that it is the form of episcopal dress that is likely to wind up the fewest people at diocesan events. Plenty of people would get wound up by a bishop celebrating the Eucharist in choir dress.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I met a bishop today who wears bare feet and dreadies. He was however wearing a purple shirt. And black jeans. No flamboyant - or any - ring.
Not that you could see, anyway.
[ 18. March 2013, 16:41: Message edited by: Amos ]
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
At least, not until he offers it to you to kiss.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If a bishop doesn't want to wear a chasuble, I'd far rather he wore a rochet and chimere than cope and mitre.
I don't see how they are a sign of hot protestantism. I believe Bishop Hooper of Gloucester refused to wear them as a rag of popery.
They are the English form of a bishop's choir dress, which has its Roman equivalent.
Of course it is. I have now idea why TEC bishops wear them at Masses for episcopal consecrations. Tippetless, but frequently with decorated stoles.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
At least, not until he offers it to you to kiss.
Ew! Stop it!
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I wouldn't mind purple if it didn't look so pink. Not that men shouldn't wear pink, of course, but when you see the sight of all the bishops together it is rather overwhelming.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
And ironic.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
And ironic.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
I'm sure I've said this before, but it was + Bob Hardy of Lincoln who was once asked, seriously, by a waitress whether the pinkish shirt he was wearing meant he was 'one of those gay vicars you read about in the papers'.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If a bishop doesn't want to wear a chasuble, I'd far rather he wore a rochet and chimere than cope and mitre.
I don't see how they are a sign of hot protestantism. I believe Bishop Hooper of Gloucester refused to wear them as a rag of popery.
They are the English form of a bishop's choir dress, which has its Roman equivalent.
The advantage of cope and mitre is that it is the form of episcopal dress that is likely to wind up the fewest people at diocesan events. Plenty of people would get wound up by a bishop celebrating the Eucharist in choir dress.
Hmm. I think choir dress should be resurrected for Communion services.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I'm sure I've said this before, but it was + Bob Hardy of Lincoln who was once asked, seriously, by a waitress whether the pinkish shirt he was wearing meant he was 'one of those gay vicars you read about in the papers'.
There used to be two shades of purple for bishops' shirts, known as 'episcopal red-violet' and 'episcopal blue-violet.' The second one was, or so I was told, preferred by low-church bishops. It was a manly shade: a sort of D.H. Lawrence Bavarian Gentian-colour. Perhaps we'll be seeing more of it now.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I met a bishop today who wears bare feet and dreadies. He was however wearing a purple shirt. And black jeans. No flamboyant - or any - ring.
As affected as a vast bejewelled mitre, episcopal gloves, with pectoral cross containing a relic, in its way.
I also wish bishops would wear the black chimere rather than the red (isn't the red properly reserved to DDs or othwer doctors or something?). I noted that ++Justin wore the rochet with black bands at sleeve for his enthronement.
Black looks so much nicer than purple IMHO.
When did all this purple sart to come in for Anglican bishops anyway? Was it nineteenth century?
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
If the Bishop is who I think it is, then the answer to that is that the only difference to his dress that becoming a Bishop made was the purple shirt. So not affected, he is not your normal Bishop and there was surprise at his appointment for this very reason.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I also wish bishops would wear the black chimere rather than the red (isn't the red properly reserved to DDs or othwer doctors or something?). I noted that ++Justin wore the rochet with black bands at sleeve for his enthronement.
I think all bishops are allowed to wear the red, but I think its supposed to be only in the presence of the Sovereign, unless they have a DD.
And I believe any DD is entitled to wear red chimere, but I'm not sure.
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
..PhDs?
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
..PhDs?
I think not. They are an innovation.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Good question. Nasty upstart German invention (I have one myself, so tongue in cheek here) which we didn't have in England until I think c1919, so perhaps not ever properly considered. AIUI until ++ Michael Ramsey's time diocesans (at least) who didn't have doctorate were given Lambeth DDs more or less as a matter of course, so again it wouldn't have arisen until the 1960s. (I still think that Rowan should have awarded one to Justin Welby, for all that it is a substantive degree rather than nan honorary one: it seems very odd not to hear him referred to as Dr WelbY.)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
Perhaps it's a colonial distinction, but I was under the impression that the bishop's alma mater typically bestowed the degree upon his (time was) election.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
LQ, Good to see you're back--but do you know what happened to Anglo Catholic Socialism website ?
Thanks
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
Purple shirts - or more correctly, purple stocks - came in during the 1920s but did not get any traction outside of the Biretta Belt and other rarified atmospheres until the late 1940s, but by the mid-50 Henry Knox Sherrill, the then Presiding Bishop of PECUSA was considered old-fashioned for wearing black with not ring or cross.
In the UK purple stock and dark coloured suit became the norm in the mid-60s. Fisher regarded apron and gaiters as the fortieth article; Michael Ramsey's indifferent motor skills meant that he had problems with them. However, some bishops continued to wear them occasionally down to the 1980s. I remember Simon Phipps, Bishop of Lincoln 1974-86, would break his out occasionally.
Purple cassocks are c.1900, and caught on very quickly mainly because they reflected the already existing Episcopal evening dress of purple apron, and blue-purple cutaway coat.
Red chimeres are academic in origin being part of the dress academicals for a DD, whilst black one are for "everyday" use. Until the mid-1960s Bishop in the UK automatically got Lambeth DDs, but Ramsey did not really approve and considerably reduced the number issued. However, by then the red chimere things was entrenched.
In the USA, the black chimere brigade was in the majority until the 1960s, then red has been steadily taking over ever since.
My personal preferences are a black shirt with a modest cross and ring, and a black suit. I occasionally do wear purple - usually a quiet version of the usual red-purple variety, but occasionally the blue - generally when I am around other bishops.
I do tend to go the two ends with vestments. Offices, and when presiding (in the old sense) at Mass I prefer rochet and black chimere. For the Mass, and any rite incorporated into it I prefer Mass vestments with pastoral staff and mitre. Unlike a lot of "High-ish" bishops in the US I do not use a cope for the Liturgy of the Word then swap to the chasuble for the Eucharistic Prayer, etc.. The Episcopal variant of "dressing for dinner" has little appeal for me. I think I am a little unusual in that I usually wear the Episcopal Dalmatic under the chasuble at ordinations and the chrism Mass.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
