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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Vineyard Holy Week no Good Friday
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Someone assiduously put a card through my letter box advertising 'Free family events' at a Vineyard Church. (Never heard of them before - had to look it up.
I was amazed that next week they are doing absolutely nothing on Good Friday.
Their programme is:
Maundy Thursday Service - Thurs 28th Mar, 8pm
Easter Egg Hunt - Sat 30th Mar, 3pm
Easter Sunday Service - Sun 31st Mar, 10.30am
So they can't be traditional evangelical, with a stress on the atonement, can they?
Is this normal?
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So they can't be traditional evangelical, with a stress on the atonement, can they?
I know little to nothing about them, but that wouldn't be my first guess based on the limited data here. My first guess would be that they view the calender as a resource to be mined when helpful for connecting with broader culture, rather than as a norm to be observed throughout the Church. My second would be that maybe they are having a GF service, but it's not a seeker service, so it's not on the advert.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
I have heard Evos say the don't keep Xmas, Lent or Good Friday because "they're not in the Bible" (of course my heart is going "WTF?" while I nod and smile and prepare to excuse myself.
But of course many of them keep Sportsman Sunday and things like that.
So not keeping Good Friday is a tradition followed by many churches around where I am.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Two possibilities come to mind (apart from mere neglect of Good Friday): one is that they don't have the use of a building on Good Friday, the other is that the leaders are unavailable for some reason. A similar flavour fellowship round here doesn't have a Christmas morning service, but encourages members to join other churches that do for that occasion.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
No one's yet mentioned the horror of Easter Egg hunt on Holy Saturday?
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
For lots of evangelically-inclined Protestant churches, at least in the U.S., the calendar just isn't their thing. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't care about the Atonement -- they just don't feel the need to make a special day for it. "It is what it is" as Honey Boo Boo's mama would say.
A friend of mine in Augusta GA worships every Sunday at an Episcopal Church, because Sunday wouldn't be Sunday without taking part in the Eucharist (and he also does appreciate the church year), but also later in the day at a Baptist church where he sings in the choir because he loves being able to sing gospel music, and also he likes the preacher. He'd been away from the Baptist church for a couple of weeks prior to last Easter, and when he went Easter sunday and wondered about the lack of resurrection-themed music, the choir director said, "Oh, I forgot that today's Easter!" ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 22. March 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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Twangist
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# 16208
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Posted
As well as the building issue (very familiar with that one) might they be involved with an ecumenical walk of witness or such like on GF (and as such not advertise it as thier own event)?
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JJ
SDG
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Sometimes these sort of churches tell their members to join in events of other churches, eg. Anglican, on those days. We even used to get people from Vineyard, and other similar house churches, on Christmas Day coming to our organised services, as there was nothing scheduled for any day except Sunday at their own shacks.
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
None of the Vineyard churches I've known have had their own buildings, so that could well be a reason, if they have use of a building on Sundays only.
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Captain Jack Sparrow
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
Actually reading the OP again, what really surprises me is that they are having a Maundy Thursday service.
All the independent evo churches I've known have done Good Friday stuff (if not their own, then joining with other churches), but I don't think any of them would have recongised Maundy Thursday if it jumped out at them from behind a door.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
This doesn't seem at all weird to me. My parents' Baptist church and the United Church of Christ congregation I work for have Maundy Thursday services but no Good Friday services.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Also ...
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So they can't be traditional evangelical, with a stress on the atonement, can they?
Sure they can. They just don't think it has anything to do with whether you follow the church calendar or not.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
So if they don't keep Good Friday as such, why the Maundy Thursday services, then?
[ 22. March 2013, 22:49: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
Most ecclesiastical season seem to be disegarded in Evangelical/fundieland here in North America. The preaching will be on what ever the clergy person has on his/her mind .
Tis 1 of the reasons I finally returned to the Anglican fold. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
No one's yet mentioned the horror of Easter Egg hunt on Holy Saturday?
I can go one better. We got a flyer from the local Lutheran shack advertising an Easter Egg hunt on "Easter Saturday," with the date of Holy Saturday.
(And yes, the date is correct...)
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
I'd imagine most Vineyard churches have quite a large proportion of families in their congregation like my NF church (we have around 80 children, about a 20 per cent of the congregation). As suggested earlier, they may be advertising their services that are more suitable for guests and families. My own church has a quiet, contemplative Good Friday service (similar to our Christmas one) with no childcare or Sunday School and I don't expect many of the families to be at the service. I'm guessing they will have similar or suggest attendance elsewhere. I am surprised they have a Maundy Thursday one though.
I don't know much about the Vineyard movement, are their ministers employed or lay? If they are lay then that would also explain fewer services. Not all churches have a building and staff.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I remember being in Glasgow in the mid-70s. Good Friday was not a public holiday in those days and I struggled to find a Church which was holding a service - it was ignored by most of the Presbys and Evangelicals although the Piskies did have one. John Knox clearly still ruled the church calendar!
[ 23. March 2013, 09:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
All the rc churches in Glasgow in the 1970s ,as indeed nowadays, would have had well attended services on Good Friday. Of course all those churches would have been 'chapels'.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A phenomenon I've observed from contacts who've spent time across the Pond is that evangelical and charismatic churches in North America (not so much here I don't think) tend to develop their own informal 'calendars' - so there'll be a 'Pastor's day' where everyone stops dissing the leader/s for a short while or some kind of 'Moms'' or 'Dads'' thing beyond Mothering Sunday or Father's Day and so on ... and all manner of other commemorations that aren't based on the liturgical calendar.
Sadly, increasing numbers of evangelical Anglicans in my experience hold very loosely indeed to the calendar, the lectionary and anything beyond their own pet emphases and what the latest thing is from New Wine or whatever ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
No one's yet mentioned the horror of Easter Egg hunt on Holy Saturday?
I can go one better. We got a flyer from the local Lutheran shack advertising an Easter Egg hunt on "Easter Saturday," with the date of Holy Saturday.
(And yes, the date is correct...)
I can top that. It's the custom in my community for ordinations to the priesthood to occur on Easter Saturday. I was talking to a priest who had formerly worked in a diocesan liturgy office about coming to mine next, explained when it would be, and he replied, "Oh, I'm sorry, but I couldn't leave the parish during Triduum." ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Preaching blog
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
If the Maundy Thursday service at the church leo mentions is in the form of a teach-in about the death of Jesus, one could conclude that a Good Friday service per se would not be necessary.
Ian J.
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
They hire a school hall and the school would be closed to pupils on Good Friday so that isn't a problem. Also, Good Friday is not a normal working day here.
Well, that's certainly not the case in the U.S.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Meant to add that trad. protestantism seemed to put more stress on Good Friday than on Easter.
I've gotten the impression, from admittedly somewhat limited experience, that some of the more "non-liturgical" Protestant or evangelical churches in the U.S. that do Easter Sunday (but not Good Friday) tend to emphasize both the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus all in the one celebration. (Actually, as i understand it, that wouldn't be all that dissimilar from the way the earliest Christians would have done it -- except that for them it would have been an all-night vigil. )
[ 23. March 2013, 14:31: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
No one's yet mentioned the horror of Easter Egg hunt on Holy Saturday?
I can go one better. We got a flyer from the local Lutheran shack advertising an Easter Egg hunt on "Easter Saturday," with the date of Holy Saturday.
(And yes, the date is correct...)
Most commercial emporia/malls etc, refer to the day between Good Friday and Easter Sunday as Easter Saturday. It's part of the theology of the Easter Bunny rising in chocolate on the third day.
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
It's also the case that a lot of the big charismatic joints' Easter Sunday services would need a massive technical and logistical effort - so they may need to take "ownership" of the worship-space to set up and do tech rehearsals during Good Friday - oand/r completely reset the space ready for Sunday.
Yep - fold in Walks of Witness...
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The Area Christians Together organisation hold a walk of witness in our town on Good Friday in the morning. It all ends up with hot cross buns, after which most of them go home. It tends to be just the Anglicans who then hold a 3 hour service in the afternoon from 12-3, starting with readings, then Stations of the Cross, then a sung Last Hour with Holy Communion.
However, if any members of the other denominations choose to stay on, they are very welcome.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
There's a Vineyard church a couple of miles from me which does have its own building, and which does have a Good Friday service at 3pm. They are encouraging their congregation to invite guests.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Oh and the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Day is commonly known as 'The Takeover of the Flower Arrangers' Day. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Or the Dictatorship of the White Lily Brigade.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
All the rc churches in Glasgow in the 1970s ,as indeed nowadays, would have had well attended services on Good Friday. Of course all those churches would have been 'chapels'.
RC churches would have been entirely off my radar at the time, I'm afraid.
BTW I had a (Yorkshire) Methodist friend who was invited to take tea with a very Evangelical family in Glasgow. When they asked him what church he went to, he replied, "Oh, I don't go to Church, I go to Chapel". They nearly threw him out - then (hopefully) had a good laugh!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Just checked the website of our local branches of NFI (probably the nearest things we have to the sort of evangelical churches being talked about here):
quote:
...each of our three sites meets on Good Friday at 10.30am, where we will all have the chance to reflect on what Jesus achieved for us on the Cross. Then we look forward to our seven meetings over the three sites on Easter Sunday - seven opportunities to celebrate the Resurrection! Come ready to worship the Risen Lord Jesus and bring your praise to Him!
Seems fair enough to me.
No Vineyard churches in our neighbourhood as far as I know, but there seems to be one at Sutton and they have a service on Good Friday:
quote:
A quiet reflective service with no kids groups. Children welcome, however the nature of the service and its content is aimed at an adults congregation.
Which also seems OK,
I had a look at the website of Hillsongs and they seem to have a "young adults pancake brunch" on the day. Or did before their website crashed my browser. Somehow I suspect I won't be going there in a hurry.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
The United Church of Christ congregation I grew up in had a Maundy Thursday Tenebrae service but no Good Friday. It's not that surprising, since Maundy Thursday is typically an evening service and people are working or in school and can't attend church mid-day on Friday.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I take it back. We do have a local Vineyard church. In fact they meet in a primary school in our parish almost opposite one of our churches.
And their website has for today:
quote:
Palm Sunday:24th March Join us for the final Sunday of Lent as Holy Week begins. 10.30am at Morden Mount
And then
quote:
Maundy Thursday:
28th March
Our Maundy Thursday service will be on the evening of Thursday 28th March. Do come and join us as we reflect on what Lent has revealed.
Which is more calendrical than you'd get from many Anglican churches.
And they did ashing on Ash Wednesday.
But then:
quote:
Easter Sunday:
(No service)
This year we will not be meeting on Easter Sunday (31st March). But we’ll be back with a bang, blowing whistles, clanging bells the following week on Sunday 7th April. So do join us then to celebrate and look towards all this Easter season might bring.
If you are looking for an Easter service drop as a line and we’ll point you in the direction of some wonderful local churches.
I wonder why that is? Maybe they are just a really small group and don't have the people to put something on every week? Or perhaps they are the sort of church that meets up in some big central celebration every now and again. But wouldn't that be on the website?
On the other hand, the statement of faith on the website of that Vineyard church in Sutton is the Creeds.
Maybe we could rent them our building...
DOH! I should scroll down. We already do! That's where the Maundy Thursday service is. So when I said I knew of no local Vineyard church I was wronger than a wrong thing.
[ 24. March 2013, 16:59: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
In England though Good Friday is a bank holiday and for many churches it is an important day. With services and often ecumenical services as well.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I'm getting more confused now. The website of that Vineyard church literally on our doorstep has a pdf of the Ash Wednesday liturgy that they used, and as far as I can see its Common Worship. They are also recommending privately using Common Worship Daily Prayer during Lent.
So much for stereotypes...
And the one in Sutton had Justin Welby to speak at a conference while ago.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps the Church that isn't meeting on Easter Sunday has simply recognised the problem of so many folk in London "going away for Easter", and the fact that the once-a-year folk are most likely to attend the Parish Church.
Or perhaps they've got a group booking at Spring Harvest ...
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I guess they're all different. We have TWO vineyard churches within a couple of miles of each other.
The other one (not the one in my OP) advertises a 'Good Friday Reflective - Take a bit of time to think and ponder on the events of Easter with us at the office this year.
We'll be creating a quiet and calm space at the office for personal reflection on the events of Good Friday. Feel free to dip in for a short time or stay for the full 2 hours!' and, on Saturday 'BVs Most Eggcellent Adventure' but no Maundy Thursday.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I don't know much about the Vineyard movement, are their ministers employed or lay? If they are lay then that would also explain fewer services. Not all churches have a building and staff.
The small-ish Vineyard church I'm a member of has a full-time senior pastor and a few other employees, some full- some part-time. The larger Vineyard churches are comparable to large charismatic Anglican churches, I'd say, so I expect they could organise several services over the Easter period if they wanted to.
Our church, like (I think) most other Vineyard churches, places a strong emphasis on home groups so a lot of our church activity is informal, rather than through services and other activities organised by the church staff.
And I think Gamaliel is right regarding the non-calendrical (have I just invented a new word?!) nature of many Vineyard and similar churches. Certainly my church pays very little heed to the Anglican or any other liturgical calendar, although I demur at his suggestion that the alternative to this is following 'their own pet emphases and what the latest thing is from New Wine or whatever' ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I had a friend who is a Pentecostal pastor and he told me that don't celebrate Pentecost/Whitsunday because every Sunday is Pentecost!
It's only in the last generation with the rise of the ecumenical movement that the liturgical calendar has started to make an impact on the free churches.
In The Salvation Army we don't necessarily 'do' Lent.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That's 'cos you're abstaining from everything already
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
In some places Good Friday liturgy is in evening when people are free.
I don't know about vineyard I thought it was a movement not a church. I heard of an Anglican Church being a vineyard church but maybe got that wrong.
Good Friday isn't a good day because of its message for families coming to church. That may be a part of it.
In fact come to think of it much of Holy Week is not good for families with little ones - worship quite complex and at bedtime times...
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Mary, a priest??
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's only in the last generation with the rise of the ecumenical movement that the liturgical calendar has started to make an impact on the free churches.
A bit longer than that, I think. There was a strong liturgical movement in the Baptist Union back in the (very) late 50s/early 60s. And the Methodists - especially the former Wesleyans - have, I think, often treated the church year seriously.
The Brethren used to ignore the church year as they felt (following St. Paul, they said) that it was wrong to privilege one day over another. While some ultra-Reformed churches avoided it because they felt it smelled of Popery!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I'm not sure how one overcomes the difficulties re families on Maundy Thursday, given that the liturgy really does belong to the evening and night...
Two of our neighbouring parishes deal with Good Friday by having some sort of All-Age Worship in the morning, followed by an adult service in the afternoon (2pm-3pm or thereabouts). It may work for them, of course, but ISTM that it would be better to have (say) a children's service e.g. a form of Stations of the Cross in the Hall, if there is one, concurrent with the Liturgy of the Day in the church. I am going to suggest that we try this next year at our place, given the growing number of young families we now have.
IMHO it's a pity if the younger members of the church miss out on bits of the Triduum, however complex and/or difficult the theology might be.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
100% agree BF.
The colour, the symbolism, the light, the dark speak at deep and profound, and children's level.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I don't know about vineyard I thought it was a movement not a church. I heard of an Anglican Church being a vineyard church but maybe got that wrong.
We call ourselves the Vineyard Church 'movement' or 'association of churches', but in essence it's a denomination like Anglican, Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God etc. etc.
Mind you, I don't personally think of myself as a 'Vineyarder', like others describe themselves as a Methodist, Roman Catholic or whatever. If I relocated or if my church closed, I think I'd look for another Vineyard church first but it wouldn't massively bother me if there wasn't one nearby (I can easily imagine myself in a charismatic Baptist church, for example). Not sure how many of my fellow 'Vineyarders' would feel the same way though...
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I don't know about vineyard I thought it was a movement not a church. I heard of an Anglican Church being a vineyard church but maybe got that wrong.
We call ourselves the Vineyard Church 'movement' or 'association of churches', but in essence it's a denomination like Anglican, Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God etc. etc.
Mind you, I don't personally think of myself as a 'Vineyarder', like others describe themselves as a Methodist, Roman Catholic or whatever. If I relocated or if my church closed, I think I'd look for another Vineyard church first but it wouldn't massively bother me if there wasn't one nearby (I can easily imagine myself in a charismatic Baptist church, for example). Not sure how many of my fellow 'Vineyarders' would feel the same way though...
I think many of us in NFI churches would be similar in our thinking, I certainly consider myself non-denominational and have attended Baptist and Anglican churches prior to my current church.
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'd suggest, South Coast Kevin that many Vineyard folk would feel comfortable in a charismatic Baptist setting and vice-versa.
There does seem to be an awareness of Calendrical issues (can I keep coining the phrase you've coined? ) among charismatic Baptists, though ... I've known some who've used the Lectionary for instance - although whether they've kept this up, I don't know.
I was being snarky with my comment about the 'latest New Wine thing' but I would tend to regard Vineyard, most charismatic Baptist and many charismatic Anglican churches as being part of the same continuum.
On the whole, these days I think most Vineyard people are less 'full-on' charismatic than they used to be even 15 or 20 years ago ... they are at the milder end of the charismatic spectrum. I expect some to morph into a modern-day form of Quaker quietism at some point soon-ish.
Which wouldn't be a bad thing ...
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Leo if i'm following this right, the church in question is having n evening to pause and ponder the journey that Jesus took to the cross. they will be experiencing the Stations of the Cross, the Lord's Supper and a time of worship and prayer.
Which sounds fairly OK to me.
Bishops Finger has it i think....for who knows why this particular Vineyard are not having a Good Friday service? Maybe someone else has the building booked? Maybe having had a communal Maundy Thursday service, Good Friday is going to be a time to reflect and consider before coming together again to celebrate on Easter Sunday.
(Easter Egg Hunt?....well... i'm sure their children will get loads of fresh air and sleep well)
[ 27. March 2013, 17:29: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I expect some to morph into a modern-day form of Quaker quietism at some point soon-ish.
Silent "tongues", eh? The mind boggles! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
More to the point: we are a mainline Baptist/URC church and we're not having a Good Friday service. Haven't had one for some years.
Why? Two reasons: very poor attendance in recent years, coupled with active participation in an Ecumenical Walk of Witness which starts at our church ands finishes with a collective act of worship in the open air.
We do have a shared Maundy Thursday communion service with the Methodists.
[ 27. March 2013, 18:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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