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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Slimmed down titles?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Forgive me if this has been touched on before, but I was reminded about the question of clerical titles by certain new reports referring to Justin Welby 'Archbishop Welby' in the first instance, then 'Mr Welby' in the second. It seems highly peculiar to hear an archbishop of Canterbury referred to as 'Mr'. I believe SkyNews did this. Presumably an ignorant press did this because ++Justin hasn't a doctorate (although I am sure this will soon be remedied by his alma mater)?
There also seems to be a growth in the use of some titles in the last few years, athough admittedly the use of 'My Lord' for bishops seems to have diminished (although I notice 'Your Grace' is still used frequently in Synod when addressing the archbishops)
It now appears that some honorary canons who have a doctorate like to be called 'Canon Dr' (as in Canon Dr Alan Billings) on Thought for the Day. At one time someone might be 'Canon' (and a doctorate only used in post nominals) or 'Dr' and the canon not used at all. This reminds one of a commment in 1997 about how New Labour cabinet ministers loved their academic titles.
And then there are the Venerables...
What might shipmates feel about this?
[ 03. April 2013, 18:00: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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sebhyatt
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Surely calling a male priest, "Mr X," is correct? I can't see what the problem is here.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Indeed, although not every (male) C of E priest is the archbishop of Canterbury.
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sebhyatt
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Plenty of media outlets have house styles that deprecate honorifics, but seem to end up almost making it up as they go along.
The Telegraph went with "The Most Rev Justin Welby" followed by "Mr. Welby", but "Cardinal Keith O'Brien" followed by "Cardinal O'Brien".
Then again, it also published reports that begun by referring to "The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge" and moved swiftly on to "William and Kate".
I wonder if anyone's used "The Most Rev Justin Welby" followed by "Fr. Justin" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
ETA: A common US style is to not use titles at all after the first mention. So I've seen several reports about begin with "The Most Rev Justin Welby", and in the second paragraph refer to His Grace as "Welby".
[ 01. April 2013, 17:53: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Surely calling someone with an honorary doctorate "Dr ..." is even worse?
No. Calling yourself Dr. when you have an honorary doctorate is much worse than that. One of the unsuccessful candidates in our elections for Police Commissioner did that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
but it was quite common prior to Michael Ramsey for all diocesans who hadn't a doctorate to be given a Lambeth DD on appointment. They were all addressed as 'Doctor'.
This was also true of some 19thC clerical headmasters. Thomas Arnold was made a DD by Oxford on his appointment to Rugby. He was called 'The Doctor'.
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sebhyatt
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Surely calling someone with an honorary doctorate "Dr ..." is even worse?
No. Calling yourself Dr. when you have an honorary doctorate is much worse than that. One of the unsuccessful candidates in our elections for Police Commissioner did that.
I hope this is something on which we can all agree. It's worse than wicked, it's vulgar.
But then giving oneself a title of any sort is very wrong. I find it most difficult when forms require the "Title" field to be completed.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
but it was quite common prior to Michael Ramsey for all diocesans who hadn't a doctorate to be given a Lambeth DD on appointment. They were all addressed as 'Doctor'.
Really? Perhaps things have changed, because a Lambeth Doctorate is (now) a substantive doctorate, not an honorary one.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I believe that it is possible to 'work' for a Lambeth degree (this started with the MA but has been extended), but Lambeth degrees are still awarded by the archbishop of Canterbury on other worthy individuals.
Whether one regards these as substantive or honorary I am not sure, but would be happy to leave such semantics to the Burgon Society or others with a similar interest.
However many in reception of some 'honorary' degrees have earned them in some sense. A cleric was recently made a DD for her outstanding work in the area of the church's healing ministry. As far as I am aware, she did not submit or supplicate for the degree in terms of published work, but is one of the UK's leading experts on the subject, so she has in effect earned, or certainly 'deserved' it.
In time Justin Welby's former university will no doubt confer on him the DD. This would be quite in keeping with tradition - as we have discussed, the conferred Lambeth DD was given when one was not already 'earned' by a diocesan, or his university had not conferred one on his appointment to a diocese.
The virtually automatic conferment tended to end in the 1960s.
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sebhyatt
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
...and the nature of a Lambeth degree has often been debated. The recipient customarily wore the academic dress of the Archbishop's own university. However, this tradition was broken in the time of George Carey who was not from Oxford or Cambridge.
Archbishop George Carey exercised his archiepiscopal right, and authorised recipients to wear the dress of the University of Oxford.
Prior to the 1990s, all Lambeth degrees were 'honorary' but certainly substantive in that they were, and are, real degrees. It is possible that they might have been earned, in the usual undersanding of that term, many centuries ago, but not in the 19thC or 20thC until the 90s.
The archbishop uses his former legatine power to confer a degree of any university, the exception being the MD. The orginal universites were Oxford or Cambridge, hence the use of the dress of either of those institutions in the present day. There was some speculation as to whether ++George would do this with London, but in the event used his predecessor's university.
Despite these degrees being sort-of Oxford or Cambridge degrees, they are properly termed 'Lambeth' and are unique.
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sebhyatt
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And Cambridge DDs- like all higher doctorates- are substantive rather than honorary degrees. However, the University regulations seem to require the submission of a body of published work for examination: I don't know how much ++Justin has published or how much of an original contribution he can be said to have made.
As I've said before, ++Rowan should have given him a Lambeth DD when he was selected. Now he can hardly confer one on himself, can he?
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Titles - I'd get rid of the whole dam' lot. What's wrong with a minister being known as <baptismalname> <surname> ?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And Cambridge DDs- like all higher doctorates- are substantive rather than honorary degrees. However, the University regulations seem to require the submission of a body of published work for examination: I don't know how much ++Justin has published or how much of an original contribution he can be said to have made.
As I've said before, ++Rowan should have given him a Lambeth DD when he was selected. Now he can hardly confer one on himself, can he?
I'm not an academic but my lay understanding is that there are four sorts of doctorate.
1. The sort given to medical doctors. You call yourself and are called 'Dr' unless you become a surgeon.
2. The ordinary sort of research one, usually called a PhD irrespective of subject matter. You have to write some sort of thesis for this one. At work, you call yourself and are called 'Dr'. In Germany, if you have more than one of them, you can call yourself Herr Dr Dr.
3. The honorary doctorate, usually conferred for some sort of public service on the university's behalf or in the community of which it is part, interceding for the university with government, successful fundraising etc. While in many cases, this may denote legitimate respect, it has no academic credibility. However estimable, it is seriously bad form to call yourself 'Dr' on the basis of such an award. Only plonkers do so.
4. A limited range of doctorates conferred by some universities on people who have achieved respect in their academic field, but based on their published works, and academic achievement, not on study for the award. Often these are DD, LLD, DMus etc. I don't know whether it's bad form to call yourself Dr because of one of these. As they are supposed to be an accolade for genuine academic achievement, I would have thought that might be legitimate. However, I suspect that most holders of such doctorates already hold PhDs, or hold some other office of respect such as being an Appeal Court Judge.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I don't think it would be bad form in the case of (4) as these were the only doctorates before the PhD.
The DD was often conferred, but it was possible to apply - in some cases in the 18thC this might have been sending in a few volumes of your published sermons. It remains to this day the most senior of the 'higher' doctorates.
Samuel Johnson (Doctor Johnson) received (I think) a conferred DLitt, and had been given an MA by Oxford University in anticipation of the publication his famous dictionary. Both were substantive in that they were real degrees, but also in a sense honorary. Referred to as Doctor Johnson , it is unlikely that he would have been regarded as 'a plonker' even by those who didn't agree with his views.
Lytton Stratchey who was no fan of Thomas Arnold, always referred to him as Doctor Arnold (honorary DD), and probably did think of him as a plonker, but not because of the use of his doctoral title.
I believe that the author and critic Ronald Blythe with two honorary DLitts to his name, is known in some circles as Doctor Blythe. His literary output and scholarly research would put him considerably ahead of a PhD anyway.
As is well known, general medical practitoners are called 'doctor' out of courtesy. They are only properly 'doctor' as it were, if they possess a PhD or the MD.
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sebhyatt
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
One of my oddities is that I prefer the American custom of referring to someone by their proper title at the first mention then afterwards by their surname. I find it comfortingly formal without being too distant.
What really irritates me is American Telephone manners. A total stranger using my Christian name is really pushing their luck. They do even worse if they abbreviate it. The young lady in the bank who addressed me by my first name today - inspite of the fact I was in clericals complete with cross and ring - got away with it only because she was cute and under-30. Nonetheless it was a bit of a come down after being in a meeting with the local congressman about immigration reform where everyone was being exceedingly proper.
Lest you think I am hung up on titles, I rarely use my own on the phone - just Christian name and surname. I also answer indifferently to Father P, Bishop P, and Your Grace. I tend to be informal in speech and formal in writing, which may be a product of my age.
PD
[ 02. April 2013, 07:03: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Normally I couldn't care less about titles and such things, but it does rile slightly when people one has never met use a first name - especially cold callers on the telephone. It raises the points (1) that may not actually be the name by which I am known (2) if a complete stanger uses it, what does someone special call me?
This can be resolved quite simply - especially with cold callers if one can be bothered to continue the conversation - by saying, whether they are male or female: 'Gosh when was it? The only people who call me that are people I've slept with'
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sebhyatt
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
The sort given to medical doctors. You call yourself and are called 'Dr' unless you become a surgeon.
Even though you may only be MB and not MD - so not a real "Doctor".
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
When I got my PhD my dad very proudly introduced me to one of his medic friends (MBBS or equivalent) as 'my son- he's a doctor- a real doctor'.
DDs/DLitts/DMus etc are definitely 'real' doctorates unless awarded honoris causa.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Always follow Debretts and never go wrong!
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Your father was quite right! I have even heard a GP say precisely that.
I would add that even honoris causa awards are 'real'. As in a few posts above where Doctor Johnson and Doctor Arnold were mentioned, these degrees were frequently earned (in a different way), and there is just a little kudos about a university coming to you, rather than the other way around.
The difference between honoris causa and 'earned' is not so obvious or simple. Most of these higher degrees were originally honoris causa anyway.
In my student days I remember a Physics post graduate who was awarded his PhD honoris causa as he had discovered something quite amazing, (I know not what) in the lab. He did complete his thesis - after the PhD had been awarded. One would certainly regard his award as 'real'.
Nearly, if not all, DScs are honoris causa ; but very 'real'.
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sebhyatt
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
What really irritates me is American Telephone manners. A total stranger using my Christian name is really pushing their luck. They do even worse if they abbreviate it. The young lady in the bank who addressed me by my first name today - inspite of the fact I was in clericals complete with cross and ring - got away with it only because she was cute and under-30. Nonetheless it was a bit of a come down after being in a meeting with the local congressman about immigration reform where everyone was being exceedingly proper.
True, as an American, this embarrrasses me. It is a fairly recent trend here, started in the late 1990s by businesses who believe that this makes their representatives sound friendlier.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It's not just American. It bugs me too. Though I don't mind if they ask permission to use my first name.
But to get back on track: I find the over-'Fathering' laity as irritating as the over-familiar ones. I think within a Christian family the less extravagant and pompous the titles the better, but ones indicative of a family relationship have their place.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
When I first moved over here being addressed as 'Father P' got on my nerves. I had fairly consistently been Mr. D in England, and was used to that. In more whimsical I used to think to myself, - 'well, I know I am High, but High-and-Dry, not Anglo-Catholic.' Of course, anyone who is not of the 'call me Bob' school gets addressed as Father/Mother over here.
It was something of a relief to become a Bishop and have a whole new set of complications to deal with. My own clergy address me as Bishop P or Bishop D; those from outside of my diocese who need me on PB business always seem to say 'Your Grace.' This is handy as it allows myself to steal for the inevitable bad news/request for a boon.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Are American RC bishops correctly styled Your Excellency?
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sebhyatt
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Are American RC bishops correctly styled Your Excellency?
If someone asked me to call them Your Excellency, my response would be You're Kidding.
(Although I might have the presence of mind first to ask them what they thought they excelled in.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
It is the correct formal address for Ambassadors - including RC clergy at that level in the papal diplomatic corps. What about diocesans?
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sebhyatt
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Anglophone RC bishops in Canada use the American Excellency. I ignore it. I give them Your Lordship and Your Grace and, when a priestly friend commented on this, a tad adversely, I told him that I would not treat his bishops with any less respect than I would their Anglican counterparts.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
As is well known, general medical practitoners are called 'doctor' out of courtesy. They are only properly 'doctor' as it were, if they possess a PhD or the MD.
In OZ/NZ that now includes vets, dentists, chiropractors and probably tarot card readers as well.
I used to be irritated bigly by a pestilential clerical colleague who was also a medico: he always signed himself off as The Rev'd Dr Fred Nurd although he "only" had an MBBS MRCS LRCP (and about 47 COGgy things from Nigeria or somewhere). Ironically as a COGgy sort (Gynaecologist) he insisted on being Mr Nurd in the hospital context.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The young lady in the bank who addressed me by my first name today - inspite of the fact I was in clericals complete with cross and ring - got away with it only because she was cute and under-30.
You presume that an under-30 knows what clericals signify.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The collar should be a bit of a giveaway.
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
... I used to be irritated bigly by a pestilential clerical colleague who was also a medico: he always signed himself off as The Rev'd Dr Fred Nurd although he "only" had an MBBS MRCS LRCP (and about 47 COGgy things from Nigeria or somewhere). Ironically as a COGgy sort (Gynaecologist) he insisted on being Mr Nurd in the hospital context.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Never met the chap, but definitely a plonker.
[ 02. April 2013, 20:15: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
As is well known, general medical practitoners are called 'doctor' out of courtesy. They are only properly 'doctor' as it were, if they possess a PhD or the MD.
In OZ/NZ that now includes vets, dentists, chiropractors and probably tarot card readers as well.
My local dental practice now seems to have adopted the custom of calling their surgeons Dr too. Never encountered it in the uk before but maybe it's the latest fashion.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My local dental practice now seems to have adopted the custom of calling their surgeons Dr too. Never encountered it in the uk before but maybe it's the latest fashion.
My dentist is Dr. Bob Deaver. He's got a DDS degree, so why not? Doctor of Dental Surgery, they tell me. His colleague in the same practice has a DMD, which is the same as DDS, only Latin: Dentariae Medicinae Doctor.
[ 02. April 2013, 20:49: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The young lady in the bank who addressed me by my first name today - inspite of the fact I was in clericals complete with cross and ring - got away with it only because she was cute and under-30.
You presume that an under-30 knows what clericals signify.
You don't think most 20-somethings in Arizona see clerics and at least think "someone who works for a church"?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Whenever these kind of things come up for discussion, I am put in mind of the reassuring line I heard from the Duke of Norfolk in 198, to those worried that they'd get the form of address to the Queen wrong: "Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter."
[ 02. April 2013, 21:30: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
although it is doubtful that Edward, the present Duke would have any academic post nominals.
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sebhyatt
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Wikipedia merely says that he 'attended' Lincoln College Oxford, without indication of whether he actually got a degree, so perhaps not even the BA(Oxon) to which a psss degree would have entitled him.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Regardless of who is currently Duke and Earl Marshal, when I hear the Duke referenced it always calls to mind Bernard Marmaduke (b 1909, Duke and Earl Marshal from 1917 until 1975.)
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Even more so than I was before
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
In my former existence, I managed to purge all academic initials from lists of dignitaries on the (semi-spurious) ground that many were from foreign institutions and therefore unverifiable, while their civil and military honours were at our fingertips. As an example, we had no Pierre Trudeau LèsL MA LLD X 8, but we left his PC CH CC QC FRSC GOLH (Fr) in.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I have noticed over the years the oddity of certain churches parading the academic qualifications of their ministers on the notice boards outside.
This has tended in my experience to be 'lower' churches in the candle stakes. Indeed, RC churches rarely seem to have a ministerial name at all, never mind a list of qualifications.
I passed the local Methodist church in the nearest town yesterday, and noticed 'Rev J Smith BA' (not the real name). Given the amount of BAs these days, I would have thought it unnecesary anyway.
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sebhyatt
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
For myself, I think that the clergy being nominally at least members of a learned profession, it is perfectly in order to refer to their academic qualifications in that context. What I find odd is seeing councillors listed with their degrees in an offical context- plaque announcing that 'these public conveniences were opened by the Mayor, Councillor WC Boggs JP BSc (Econ), on 21 July 1998'- that sort of thing. Is this a peculiarly South Walian thing?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Actually, those town council types really do love their styles, titles and robes: Councillor this and Alderman That. Worshipful Blah Blah They are often worse than the Masons (often the same thing I suppose) and would make cardinals look very simple and unadorned.
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sebhyatt
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
plaque announcing that 'these public conveniences were opened by the Mayor, Councillor WC Boggs JP BSc (Econ), on 21 July 1998'- that sort of thing. Is this a peculiarly South Walian thing?
Oh dear. Does he have his 200m swimming certificate on there as well?
I think it's more of an insecurity thing than anything else.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Actually, those town council types really do love their styles, titles and robes: Councillor this and Alderman That.
Well, the fancy robes and "The Worshipful The Lord Mayor" and all that are dignities attached to the office. It might be a bit silly, but I think it's rather different in character from waving your academic accomplishments around in inappropriate contexts.
(The only appropriate contexts I can think of for BA (Econ) are on a school's list of teachers or on a CV.)
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In my former existence, I managed to purge all academic initials from lists of dignitaries on the (semi-spurious) ground that many were from foreign institutions and therefore unverifiable, while their civil and military honours were at our fingertips. As an example, we had no Pierre Trudeau LèsL MA LLD X 8, but we left his PC CH CC QC FRSC GOLH (Fr) in.
Idi Amin might have challenged that practice !
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My local dental practice now seems to have adopted the custom of calling their surgeons Dr too. Never encountered it in the uk before but maybe it's the latest fashion.
My dentist is Dr. Bob Deaver. He's got a DDS degree, so why not? Doctor of Dental Surgery, they tell me. His colleague in the same practice has a DMD, which is the same as DDS, only Latin: Dentariae Medicinae Doctor.
That's a whole nother issue, because the DDS I suspect is basically a rebadged BDS ... and don't get me going on D.Mins which are .... no, I want to stay out of Hell this week.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The young lady in the bank who addressed me by my first name today - inspite of the fact I was in clericals complete with cross and ring - got away with it only because she was cute and under-30.
You presume that an under-30 knows what clericals signify.
You don't think most 20-somethings in Arizona see clerics and at least think "someone who works for a church"?
Nope. Lots of people have no idea what the collar is. Particularly if it's a band instead of a tab (which is most commonly seen on TV).
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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