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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Slimmed down titles?
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Well, the fancy robes and "The Worshipful The Lord Mayor" and all that are dignities attached to the office. It might be a bit silly, but I think it's rather different in character from waving your academic accomplishments around in inappropriate contexts.
True, I'm sure that many of them don't entirely like the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta look, although I suspect that a few of them rather like dressing up. In the case of this fine group, a measure of the importance of the office that these robes indicate is that senior members of the council get to sit on a committee that administers the town cemetery! Above this council is another council that is responsible for emptying the bins, and above them another council responsible for not maintaining the roads and for those schools that haven't got around to moving out of local authority control. The public sector over-staffed - surely not.
But back to the issue of titles. Should one address any Bishop as 'My Lord' ('My Lady'?), or only one's diocesan?
[ 04. April 2013, 07:25: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The town council pomposity is just about the only example that makes me a little 'republican' or whatever. Lots of silly creatures with bad perms (male and female) thinking they are something.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
take the question back a stage: what is the purpose of titles?
is it to recognise a role or to affirm an individual in that role?
IME there's a lot of the latter and little of the former these days, esp when few understand the function of the office.
As an individual if you have - or positively like - to be known as <title ...> then you are rather bigging yourself somewhat. Isn't there a story Jesus told about wanting to be recognised .....
I can't think of anyone who refers to me as <title> apart from one very good friend who uses the jokey "Vicar" - which I'm not! I'm just mark be it in a school, at a Council meeting or in the street around the church on Prickly Mountain.
Too many people hide behind the supposed power a title brings as they don't have the personal ability to perform the function. In business, as soon as you have to say "I'm the boss" to get something done, then you've lost the plot. Respect and engagement comes from personality and prowess, not position or status.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I would do virtually the same Leo, but would probably prefer 'Michael', as I hope the Diocesan is called in the intercessions or eucharistic prayer.
There is also that other variant which has been discussed here before: 'Bishop John' and 'Bishop Janet'. We rarely say 'Vicar John' or 'Vicar Janet' In other words it possibly means 'I want to be matey, but not quite enough for you to think us exactly equal'. If the bishop used by first name, then I would do the same back.
'Father' for a bishop is rather nice. It appears in all formal documentation with regard to those in episcopal orders (Father-in-God) irregardless of churchmanship.
Although popularly and affectionally called 'Rowan', the last archbishop accepted and understood being addressed as 'Father'. And I'm not all that High.
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sebhyatt
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - he has specifically asked the be named 'Mike' on intercessions lists.
...
in that case, he needs your intercessions.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
In the case of this fine group, a measure of the importance of the office that these robes indicate is that senior members of the council get to sit on a committee that administers the town cemetery!
Why is the parish (alias town) council of a community in Surrey, preceded by a Scottish piper in a kilt?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That seems to me to be rather stuffy.
Do you want your bishops to be remote and other-worldly?
I prefer my leader to live in the real world like me. Then his leadership has some street-cred.
No, I'd just like my bishop to have some sense of the dignity of his office (which is absolutely not the same thing as having a sense of his own importance) and not to try to be chummy unless he's actually my friend.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
In the case of this fine group, a measure of the importance of the office that these robes indicate is that senior members of the council get to sit on a committee that administers the town cemetery!
Why is the parish (alias town) council of a community in Surrey, preceded by a Scottish piper in a kilt?
Just taken a look. They seem a prize group of potatos.
Like that 'Lady Mayoress' (Beyond the Fringe?) trying to open a fete:
Ai 'opes you henjoy this feet, and I declares it hopen
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sebhyatt
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I would do virtually the same Leo, but would probably prefer 'Michael', as I hope the Diocesan is called in the intercessions or eucharistic prayer.
There is also that other variant which has been discussed here before: 'Bishop John' and 'Bishop Janet'. We rarely say 'Vicar John' or 'Vicar Janet' In other words it possibly means 'I want to be matey, but not quite enough for you to think us exactly equal'. If the bishop used by first name, then I would do the same back.
The simple and elegant way around this is "John/Janet, our bishop".
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
I address our priest as "Bob" qua brother in Christ, and as "Father Bob" or "Father" qua priest.
Or at least I would, if his name was Bob.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I wonder if anyone posting here has actually met any town or borough or county councillors? I've known dozens. Maybe met hundreds. Of all sorts of parties. And I don't remember any of them hung up on regalia, titles, and bling. Even those who were pompous farts. Of course the chains of office and robes and whatnot came out for formal ceremonies - as they do in academia or churches or the military - but most of the time no-one cares at all.
[ 04. April 2013, 22:35: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
In business, as soon as you have to say "I'm the boss" to get something done, then you've lost the plot. Respect and engagement comes from personality and prowess, not position or status.
Yet is the office of Bishop not worthy of respect, even if a particular bishop is a total jackass? Salute the uniform, not the man and all that?
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Forgive me if this has been touched on before, but I was reminded about the question of clerical titles by certain new reports referring to Justin Welby 'Archbishop Welby' in the first instance, then 'Mr Welby' in the second. It seems highly peculiar to hear an archbishop of Canterbury referred to as 'Mr'. I believe SkyNews did this. Presumably an ignorant press did this
What might shipmates feel about this?
As you say, press ignorance. Most of those press chappies haven't darkened the door of a church for years, if ever, and suddenly they are called to deal with ecclesiastical titles and other complexities.Their use of that 'Mister' for a CofE or other Anglican bishop is particularly irksome.
I suppose the Episcopal Bishop of Washington is, by the same usage, "Mrs." Mariann Edgar Budde. Conservative traditionalists love to call the American presiding bishop "Mrs" Jeferts Schori, but that's quite another subject for purgatory.
How about "Mr." Francis Bergoglio, bishop of Rome?
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Our old notice board because we are a uni church.
The 3 clergy all had PhDs and I was a mere BA!
So what? It does rather come across as boasting
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
In business, as soon as you have to say "I'm the boss" to get something done, then you've lost the plot. Respect and engagement comes from personality and prowess, not position or status.
Yet is the office of Bishop not worthy of respect, even if a particular bishop is a total jackass? Salute the uniform, not the man and all that?
If you have that kibd of person taking up the office, then it debases the position by virtue of incumbency.
Surely it's more appropriate to recognise (or not) person not position for that very reason. Too mnay individuals with feet of clay have survived over the years as a consequence of over deferential attitudes to "position."
Giving a title to anyone elevates their position above everyone else
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the chains of office and robes and whatnot came out for formal ceremonies - as they do in academia or churches or the military - but most of the time no-one cares at all.
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. ...
As the late John Betjeman pointed out, when he asked which disciple said that, not a good argument to cite in Christian circles. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. ...
As the late John Betjeman pointed out, when he asked which disciple said that, not a good argument to cite in Christian circles.
I don't think I claimed town councils and the like to be Christian Circles and this isn't a Christian web site!
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the chains of office and robes and whatnot came out for formal ceremonies - as they do in academia or churches or the military - but most of the time no-one cares at all.
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
Well said Exclamation Mark.
I recently found myself swept into some silly civic do, that involved huge self-congratulatory speeches about supposed and imaginary achievement. The usual band of must-speaks and loud mouths that constitutes much that passes for local government was present, amusingly disguised by their ill fitting semi-Ruritanian robes, chains, and enough lace to make St Mary's Bourne Street blush.
I heard a person behind me mutter 'Cor they don't half think a lot of themselves' to his neighbour.
The hilarity of the spectacle would probably have dampened the hostility of Exclamation Mark, but certainly made one think if not 'roll on centralisation', then certainly of Eliza Doolittle in plastic pearls, expensive fake ermine and elocuted voices.
The only advantage I can think of is that it enables them to act out some time consuming self-delusion which prevents them getting their hands on real power - to the benefit of the rest of us.
Sell their baubles and fix the pot holes.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the chains of office and robes and whatnot came out for formal ceremonies - as they do in academia or churches or the military - but most of the time no-one cares at all.
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
Well said Exclamation Mark.
I recently found myself swept into some silly civic do, that involved huge self-congratulatory speeches about supposed and imaginary achievement. The usual band of must-speaks and loud mouths that constitutes much that passes for local government was present, amusingly disguised by their ill fitting semi-Ruritanian robes, chains, and enough lace to make St Mary's Bourne Street blush.
I heard a person behind me mutter 'Cor they don't half think a lot of themselves' to his neighbour.
The hilarity of the spectacle would probably have dampened the hostility of Exclamation Mark, but certainly made one think if not 'roll on centralisation', then certainly of Eliza Doolittle in plastic pearls, expensive fake ermine and elocuted voices.
The only advantage I can think of is that it enables them to act out some time consuming self-delusion which prevents them getting their hands on real power - to the benefit of the rest of us.
Sell their baubles and fix the pot holes.
Local government would be a lot better if those who disdain it were prepared to do their bit, get off the fence and involved in it.
As for 'centralisation' that really is paying somebody else off to do it in stead of you, and then complaining when you're not happy with the result, or they oppress you.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Surely it's more appropriate to recognise (or not) person not position for that very reason. Too mnay individuals with feet of clay have survived over the years as a consequence of over deferential attitudes to "position."
Giving a title to anyone elevates their position above everyone else
In discussions like this I always think of the negative things Jesus said about titles and deference, then wonder why some Christians make such a fuss over the 'right' title. Like Christians in court swearing an oath on the Bible (of all things!), it seems like a straight-up rejection of Jesus' instructions...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the chains of office and robes and whatnot came out for formal ceremonies - as they do in academia or churches or the military - but most of the time no-one cares at all.
Sell them all and give the money to the poor. Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
Well said Exclamation Mark.
I recently found myself swept into some silly civic do, that involved huge self-congratulatory speeches about supposed and imaginary achievement. The usual band of must-speaks and loud mouths that constitutes much that passes for local government was present, amusingly disguised by their ill fitting semi-Ruritanian robes, chains, and enough lace to make St Mary's Bourne Street blush.
I heard a person behind me mutter 'Cor they don't half think a lot of themselves' to his neighbour.
The hilarity of the spectacle would probably have dampened the hostility of Exclamation Mark, but certainly made one think if not 'roll on centralisation', then certainly of Eliza Doolittle in plastic pearls, expensive fake ermine and elocuted voices.
The only advantage I can think of is that it enables them to act out some time consuming self-delusion which prevents them getting their hands on real power - to the benefit of the rest of us.
Sell their baubles and fix the pot holes.
Local government would be a lot better if those who disdain it were prepared to do their bit, get off the fence and involved in it.
As for 'centralisation' that really is paying somebody else off to do it in stead of you, and then complaining when you're not happy with the result, or they oppress you.
There is always something suspicious about those who seek power - and this tends to be highlighted by the types of all parties who go for town councils or local government, which is possibly politics at its most bitchy and trivial. It is, of course, disguised by a 'desire to do good', or whatever convenient cliche comes to hand. The more innocent are foolish enough to delude themselves into thinking that is true, the rest probably don't care.
Indeed, someone will point out that they put a lot of time in blah blah, usually without pointing out the expenses claimed, or the ego-inflation that they enjoy seeing their photo in the Groby Road Echo , or other dubious reasons they have consciously or subconsciously for seeking grubby bits of power over others, displayed in the trinkets, fake ermine and chains worn by red-faced, over weight (most often) men.
And we will hear very soon 'but what would we put in its place?'. I have absolutely no idea. But strip it of prestige, baubles, expenses. Slim down the titles (to return to OP).
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[QUOTE]In discussions like this I always think of the negative things Jesus said about titles and deference, then wonder why some Christians make such a fuss over the 'right' title. Like Christians in court swearing an oath on the Bible (of all things!), it seems like a straight-up rejection of Jesus' instructions...
I've never taken an oath in court for that evry reason. It has caused one or two comments in the past until i explain why, as a Christian, I must affirm or not give evidence at all.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
Get rid of the economic system that perpetuates exploitation and encourages greed first, then we can work out what to do about the stuff they left behind.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Our old notice board because we are a uni church.
The 3 clergy all had PhDs and I was a mere BA!
So what? It does rather come across as boasting
But in university circles, people don't regard you as worth listening to unless you have a doctorate.
More fool them. I refer you to Paul's words about wisdom and foolishness in 1 Corinthians.
Obviously depends on what university you're in. I've not found any problem myself (at one of our oldest universities) and I don't have a PhD.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Get rid once and for all this kind of reminder of our past that represents a residual nod to economic systems of power that perpetuated exploitation and encouraged greed.
Get rid of the economic system that perpetuates exploitation and encourages greed first, then we can work out what to do about the stuff they left behind.
Why discriminate? Hit at anything we can - sooner of later we'll wound the animal and bring it down if we keep going long enough. Hope you'll be marching with Unison when the call comes .....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Our old notice board because we are a uni church.
The 3 clergy all had PhDs and I was a mere BA!
So what? It does rather come across as boasting
But in university circles, people don't regard you as worth listening to unless you have a doctorate.
More fool them. I refer you to Paul's words about wisdom and foolishness in 1 Corinthians.
Obviously depends on what university you're in. I've not found any problem myself (at one of our oldest universities) and I don't have a PhD.
I agree. Russel Group universities seem a bit insecure.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That seems to me to be rather stuffy.
Do you want your bishops to be remote and other-worldly?
I prefer my leader to live in the real world like me. Then his leadership has some street-cred.
No, I'd just like my bishop to have some sense of the dignity of his office (which is absolutely not the same thing as having a sense of his own importance) and not to try to be chummy unless he's actually my friend.
It's the 21st Century. I see no indignity in the use of Christian names, the names with which we were baptised.
In any case, I used to see the bishop regularly in Sainsbury's and had a chat until he moved to a different neighbourhood.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's the 21st Century. I see no indignity in the use of Christian names, the names with which we were baptised.
In any case, I used to see the bishop regularly in Sainsbury's and had a chat until he moved to a different neighbourhood.
Seriously.
One of the things that drew me to the Episcopal Church (believe it or not) was hearing prayers "for Barack our President and Deval our Governor" and "for Tom and Gayle our Bishops" during the Prayers of the People. What could be more dignified than using the Christian name of a brother or sister in Christ, in whom we are all equal?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That seems to me to be rather stuffy.
Do you want your bishops to be remote and other-worldly?
I prefer my leader to live in the real world like me. Then his leadership has some street-cred.
No, I'd just like my bishop to have some sense of the dignity of his office (which is absolutely not the same thing as having a sense of his own importance) and not to try to be chummy unless he's actually my friend.
It's the 21st Century. I see no indignity in the use of Christian names, the names with which we were baptised.
Nor do I. And that is why, were I in your diocese, I would very happily pray for 'Michael, our Bishop'.
Or are you suggesting that he was baptised Mike? Unlikely, I'd have thought, but if he was, that would of course be another matter.)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Bishop Robert Williamson, formerly of Southwark, was universally known (and prayed for) as Roy. That being the customary abbreviation of his name in Northern Ireland where he grew up.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
What could be more dignified than using the Christian name of a brother or sister in Christ, in whom we are all equal?
Or indeed "Elizabeth our Queen".
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Bishop Robert Williamson, formerly of Southwark, was universally known (and prayed for) as Roy. That being the customary abbreviation of his name in Northern Ireland where he grew up.
Ah, yes, you're quite right there. We all knew him as Roy.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Until this thread it hadn't struck me as odd to pray for Bishop Mike. And were I in diocese of Bangor I'd be praying for Bishop Andy.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
What could be more dignified than using the Christian name of a brother or sister in Christ, in whom we are all equal?
Or indeed "Elizabeth our Queen".
We also pray for Elizabeth our Queen, and pray for Julia our Prime Minister and Barry our Premier (the head of the State Govt.), in addition to Phillip our Primate, Peter our Archbishop. and Glenn our regional Bishop.
In the old days, we also prayed for Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh and Charles, Duke of Cornwall - perhaps we did not pray with sufficient fervour for him.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I agree. Russel Group universities seem a bit insecure.
The University from the Russell Group I had in mind is far from insecure, so I don't see your point unless it's a swipe at the whole lot, Bristol and Clifton included.
I suspect that the PhD thing is more about your church saying "We've got 3 PhD's on the staff" than it is the University saying "We won't go there unless they've at least 3 PhD's on the staff." In which case the issue is not one of who listens but of who is too far up themselves because they love the idea of titles and worldly status too much.
By the way leo I have to mark your submission down - please see me. Russell has 2 "L's" as you as a teacher should know.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] In any case, I used to see the bishop regularly in Sainsbury's and had a chat until he moved to a different neighbourhood.
Bet Mike loved being caught out when buying his pork scratchings in the mega pack.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Please tell me that isn't a euphemism for something.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Leo is talking utter twaddle about universities. For instance, he might like to know the majority of university academic staff do not have a PhD. It is the majority in full time and post 1972 but it is nowhere near 100%.
In Russell group this would include three very distinct groups of people. The first is the bright non-completer. This is someone who lands a tenure job just before they complete their brilliant doctorate and then never does complete it. They normally actually have quite a high publishing standard. The second group is the truly brilliant academic who has developed through a non-traditional route e.g. Wittengstein. Finally there are the very experienced very able medical doctors who simply have been too busy practising to get the formal qualifications. Even those with MD technically have a lower academic qualification than Phd (no I am not making this up; there are a few, very few, who having got M.D. are so inspired by research they go on to do PhD).
The universities would be poorer institutions if they had to exclude any of these people from researching and teaching students. They are unduly represented among the inspiring academics. So no the idea that you need a PhD to be listened to by academics it nonsense.
Jengie
p.s. the qualification I most often cite is not academic at all but simply my professional one.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Please tell me that isn't a euphemism for something.
[ 06. April 2013, 10:41: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Please tell me that isn't a euphemism for something.
]Nah - pity though its sounds too good to miss. It was just a wind up towards leo in an attempt to get him to understand that I'm not impressed by his mates even more than he would be by mine. If the bish wants to buy his fags at lidl then so what? Just imagine what he might think being accosted for a theological chat by leo in the undies dept
[ 06. April 2013, 10:45: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Jengie Jon posts: quote:
the idea that you need a PhD to be listened to by academics it nonsense.
Quite true: I found that, as a source of funds (in my former RL), they listened to me quite carefully. I found that they always wanted to address me as Doctor Aleut, and I would cheerfully tell them that, in Canada, it was custom that public servants never used their non-scientific doctorates. Unlike Ireland, where DPhil politicians got to be Dr FitzGerald, none of our PhD'd politicoes (e.g. Mackenzie King, Stéphane Dion) got to be more than Mr at best.
Having worked in a ministerial office many moons ago, well before many shipmates were even thought of, let alone conceived, we were accustomed to the even-then oldfashioned Mr Minister or Mr Familyname. At a dinner a few years ago, the year before our former boss died, we realized that, 20 years on, we still called him Mr Familyname, even after bottles littered the table and the floor. He liked Comrade Privy Councillor, which was the form I devised for our private correspondence.
As far as titling bishops and others, I will not spare them. When a certain diocesan asked me to call him Bishop Firstname, I replied, "Deal with it, Your Lordship." The Orthies, with their ethnic titles, were easier, so one could call a bishop vladyka, sayedna, or despota, and it sounded chummy while recognizing their office-- some of our Orthodox shipmates will note that this is how they do things.
Those who are seriously concerned for equality will work to break down oppressive class structures, and not spend any time on archaic trappings. My experience in life has been that those who focus on the trappings rest with their achievements, and merrily turn their eyes from the downtrodden, now that their work is done. But YMMV.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Leo is talking utter twaddle about universities. For instance, he might like to know the majority of university academic staff do not have a PhD. It is the majority in full time and post 1972 but it is nowhere near 100%.
In Russell group this would include three very distinct groups of people. The first is the bright non-completer. This is someone who lands a tenure job just before they complete their brilliant doctorate and then never does complete it. They normally actually have quite a high publishing standard. The second group is the truly brilliant academic who has developed through a non-traditional route e.g. Wittengstein. Finally there are the very experienced very able medical doctors who simply have been too busy practising to get the formal qualifications. Even those with MD technically have a lower academic qualification than Phd (no I am not making this up; there are a few, very few, who having got M.D. are so inspired by research they go on to do PhD).
The universities would be poorer institutions if they had to exclude any of these people from researching and teaching students. They are unduly represented among the inspiring academics. So no the idea that you need a PhD to be listened to by academics it nonsense.
Jengie
p.s. the qualification I most often cite is not academic at all but simply my professional one.
The lawyers don't usually have PhDs. It isn't a field a person can do that sort of research in. They have to make their name by writing articles and text books or giving expensive opinions. Back in the 1960s, at the time of the wind of change, there was one of them that did quite a sideline in writing constitutions.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] In any case, I used to see the bishop regularly in Sainsbury's and had a chat until he moved to a different neighbourhood.
Bet Mike loved being caught out when buying his pork scratchings in the mega pack.
It was usually me coming out of the alcohol section. I once remarked that it wasn't all for me, to which he quipped, 'You enjoy.'
The thing that impresses me about him is that he is an evangelical.
Until recently, most evangelicals I knew were killjoys.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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