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Source: (consider it) Thread: Preserving English Missal and traditional liturgy?
Albertus
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...said the disappointed theocrat (oh for the good old days of JC McQuaid, eh?). No it isn't: it has some peculiarities of governance which are conditioned by its historical development and relationship to the English and then British state.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However, even I can see that as regards the thread, it's about as blatant a tangent as one could imagine.

Well, perhaps. But the whole business of establishment is bound up with C of E liturgy and you can't discuss one without the other.
But I wasn't just talking about the CofE, yet alone liturgy.

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nose bleed high
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Can I ask a basic question. Are there any anglo catholic churches in London who have the old English Missal with say, Psalm 43 in the preparation and the Last Gospel?

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Percy B
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An interesting question nose bleed high... In fact I wonder how many EM churches of the form you describe are in England.

I also understand there are different styles - different editions I mean, the EM went through different editions with different emphases.

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Conchubhar
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I believe that S. Magnus the Martyr, London Bridge does their Sunday High Mass according to the English Missal and the weekday masses according to the modern Roman Rite. Both are celebrated traditional facing east.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I'd have to go through my facebook messages from a certain former Shippie who is familiar with current usage at St Magnus Martyr to get the specifics of his description, but I know he reported to me a few months ago that St MM London Bridge uses what he described as a rather idiocyncratic "hybrid" rite that is not strictly English Missal. I'll see if I can't look up the relevant communication for the details.
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:

Elements of 1928 could be found in the pattern of Parish Communion in many parishes during the 1940s and 1950s, but the 1928 Eucharistic Prayer (sadly?) did not find favour.

In many 'mildly' catholic parishes (the sort that didn't dare use the English Missal*) the so-called 'Interim Rite' was used. This was basically 1662 minus the ten commandments and long exhortations, plus the Kyries, Benedictus and Agnus Dei, and with Cranmer's 'prayer of oblation' tacked on to his prayer of consecration, followed by the Lord's Prayer (before communion, rather than after it as in 1662). Sometimes the 1928 Prayer for the Church would be used, but I don't know of anywhere that used the 1928 Eucharistic prayer (though there were doubtless one or two places).

*or there would be churches where the so-called Minor Propers from the Missal would be inserted into the rite otherwise as the above.

There were also some Catholic-leaning places where the Interim Rite was used which would not go as far as the minor propers but would crank out something from EH or HA&MR at the appropriate points in the service. If you stuff a 1662 in front of me I will still tend to do the Interim Rite. Oddly, I am not as comfortable with the 1928 American BCP as with the Interim Rite as in the former the Epiclesis is after the Words of Institution. This makes the major elevations liturgically uncomfortable for me. The ceremonial says 'western rite' but the actual layout of the Canon is far closer to that of the Eastern rite. I guess I am a bit unusual in regarding such things as actually having some importance. I am currently trying to decide if I buy the theory that the American version of the epiclesis actually refers to the benefits of Communion rather than the actual consecration.

The sort of parish I fervantly miss is the old-fashioned 'Tractarian' churches of my childhood. We had quite a few of them around my way which maintained Morning Prayer as the main service most Sundays, but had Low Mass with Eucharistic vestments and all the basic points of catholic observance at 8.00am and after Matins. They also had daily MP and EP and Communion on Holydays and a couple of times in the week. I know that to a lot of folks these days that sounds like a curious hybrid, but it was fairly frequent in cautious areas 30 years ago.

PD

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:

The sort of parish I fervantly miss is the old-fashioned 'Tractarian' churches of my childhood. We had quite a few of them around my way which maintained Morning Prayer as the main service most Sundays, but had Low Mass with Eucharistic vestments and all the basic points of catholic observance at 8.00am and after Matins. They also had daily MP and EP and Communion on Holydays and a couple of times in the week. I know that to a lot of folks these days that sounds like a curious hybrid, but it was fairly frequent in cautious areas 30 years ago.

PD

Sounds just like the church of my teenage years ( didn't have a church in childhood!). Unfortunately it's changed a bit, but in the wrong direction (mildly happy-clappy I think).

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PD
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Having attended a Pontifical High Mass celebrated according the American Missal yesterday, I will have to say, yes, it all worth keeping in use rather than preserving. It took me back to being a teenager in an English Missal parish 30 years ago.

PD

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Conchubhar:
I believe that S. Magnus the Martyr, London Bridge does their Sunday High Mass according to the English Missal and the weekday masses according to the modern Roman Rite. Both are celebrated traditional facing east.

Three years ago, in my last few months in the Church of England, I sometimes went to St Magnus the Martyr, though more often to St Alban the Martyr, Holborn. They certainly had their own distinctive liturgy, celebrated ad orientem, much of it taken from the English Missal. But it was definately a hybrid, which I've never encountered elsewhere.

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PD
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I am old enough to remember the slow changers still doing Series 2 with all the Carflick bits ad orientem at a time when we were experimenting with Series 3 and the Daily Lectionary - so I am guessing that I am talking about the mid to late-1970s.

I would imagine that what Magnus Martyr and St Alban's Holborn are doing is English Missal adapted to keep it almost on the right side of Comic Washup, or CW Traddy Language with all the Carflick bits. Certainly an eccentric achievement, but somewhere where we have been before in terms of methodology.

PD

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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am old enough to remember the slow changers still doing Series 2 with all the Carflick bits ad orientem at a time when we were experimenting with Series 3 and the Daily Lectionary - so I am guessing that I am talking about the mid to late-1970s.

I would imagine that what Magnus Martyr and St Alban's Holborn are doing is English Missal adapted to keep it almost on the right side of Comic Washup, or CW Traddy Language with all the Carflick bits. Certainly an eccentric achievement, but somewhere where we have been before in terms of methodology.

PD

I am sure that's true for St Magnus, but I think St Alban's BS now uses the Roman Rite - with the exception of the Creed which is sung to Martin Shaw.
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Percy B
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The Southport church of the OP prides itself on its English Missal tradition. (Which edition?)

Is it alone in its pride and public dedication to this missal?

What we seem to be saying is that other places use EM a bit, but just a bit.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The Southport church of the OP prides itself on its English Missal tradition. (Which edition?)

Is it alone in its pride and public dedication to this missal?

What we seem to be saying is that other places use EM a bit, but just a bit.

I think in its heyday that's the way the vast majority of EM-using churches used it. There were of course the hardcore 'Western Rite' parishes, but they were rare outside of London and a few other biretta belts. Most places just had it on the altar as a resource for the priest and few ordinary punters would notice the difference in the rite as spoken/sung.

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Utrecht Catholic
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On Easterday 2012, I attended the Solemn Mass at St.Alban's Holborn.
The hymns were from the new English Hymnal,the liturgy was the modern Roman Rite.
But inspite of this.the atmosphere was very Anglican and certainly rather different from the
average R.C.parish-church.
The ceremonial was more reformed than at Margaret Street and the reception afterwards was very warm, wonderful hospitality.

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Most places just had it on the altar as a resource for the priest and few ordinary punters would notice the difference in the rite as spoken/sung.

In fact this was the custom in my childhood parish which called itself a "Prayerbook Catholic" parish.
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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The Southport church of the OP prides itself on its English Missal tradition. (Which edition?)

Is it alone in its pride and public dedication to this missal?

What we seem to be saying is that other places use EM a bit, but just a bit.

I think in its heyday that's the way the vast majority of EM-using churches used it. There were of course the hardcore 'Western Rite' parishes, but they were rare outside of London and a few other biretta belts. Most places just had it on the altar as a resource for the priest and few ordinary punters would notice the difference in the rite as spoken/sung.
Angloid are you saying western rite churches used it inits entirety or didn't use it? Sorry not quite clear to me from your post.

[Smile]

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Angloid
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You can't use the EM 'in its entirety' because it contains two incompatible rites: the Roman rite and 1662. But I see what you mean, and I think a church that called itself Western Rite would use very little if any of the Prayer Book provision (except that texts like the Gloria, creed etc would be in the Cranmerian version).

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Most places just had it on the altar as a resource for the priest and few ordinary punters would notice the difference in the rite as spoken/sung.

In fact this was the custom in my childhood parish which called itself a "Prayerbook Catholic" parish.
A dear elderly priest, who went to glory four or five years ago, told me that the parish he'd been in (for may years) was "Prayer Book through and through - or so they thought..." When the Vicar finally retired, they were adamant that they wanted a Prayer Book priest who'd give them the Prayer Book. (They'd be joined to another parish at this point.)

Well, they got one. Who was very confused by the reaction he got the first Sunday after the interregnum when he celebrated the BCP Communion Service. He phoned up the former Vicar and asked what was going on. "Ah," said the former Vicar (with a twinkle in his eye as he told the story) "it was straight BCP - just interspersed by the English Missal."

Thurible

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PD
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When I was still in the UK we had two priests who used the EM. One took every possible "Western Rite" option. The other tended to follow the 1662 only adding those bits entirely absent from the BCP. The feeling of the former approach was as though some other religion was being taught, the latter approach came across as a somewhat enriched, in all the right ways, BCP service. I definitely preferred the BCP+ version.

I get much the same feeling when I am dealing with Anglican Missal (American Edition) where some of its practitioners seem to want to do the Tridentine Mass in English, and the American Missal, which comes across as enriched American 1928 BCP.

PD

[ 26. April 2013, 23:48: Message edited by: PD ]

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Quam Dilecta
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As a witness to the transition from the American Missal to the 1979 Prayer Book in my home parish, I can testify that the change was much more apparent at Low Masses than Solemn Masses. At the latter, the changes were largely confined to posture (less kneeling, more standing) and to the readings and collects; the chanted minor propers continued as before.

With loss of the spoken propers, however, Low Masses lost the touches of seasonal color which these snatches from the Psalter provide. Despite the decades which have passed, I still miss the flood of alleluias which permeated the weekday masses during Eastertide.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
With loss of the spoken propers, however, Low Masses lost the touches of seasonal color which these snatches from the Psalter provide. Despite the decades which have passed, I still miss the flood of alleluias which permeated the weekday masses during Eastertide.

We kept the spoken propers for Sunday Low Masses, and they're printed in the service sheet for the celebrant to say; I believe the texts are those of the English Gradual. On weekdays, there's a Daily Roman Missal on the celebrant's lectern for optional use of the entrance antiphon and Communion verse, especially on holy days. Some celebrants also add the responsorial psalm refrain to our recitation of the psalm from the BCP, and I've heard the alleluia and verse read sometimes as well (although it wouldn't be in an RC said Mass).
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've heard the alleluia and verse read sometimes as well (although it wouldn't be in an RC said Mass).

Wouldn't it? I've been to RC masses (otherwise said) when the alleluia is sung. Is it the custom to omit it altogether?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've heard the alleluia and verse read sometimes as well (although it wouldn't be in an RC said Mass).

Wouldn't it? I've been to RC masses (otherwise said) when the alleluia is sung. Is it the custom to omit it altogether?
I believe the rubrics say it should be omitted if it can't be sung. So those who sing it at a said Mass are right, even if I think it's a little odd to sing just that.
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PD
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My recollection of the change over from the Interim Rite to Series 3 was that things suddenly got a lot plainer. On weekdays the old minor propers were replaced by a responsorial psalm, and the saints become much less prominent in the parish liturgy. My home shack moved towards the centre not long after that so frequent midweek Masses became a things of the past, though MP and EP hung on until 2002/3.

I have a bit of a convuluted relationship with the whole Missal tradition. I like to add the private prayers of the celebrant, the minor propers, and a few other minor its and pieces, but wholesale reorganisation of the BCP rite is not for me. Typically when I lived in the UK I would do the ninefold Kyrie instead of the Decalogue except in Lent and Advent, and the Prayers after the consecration would be arrange in their ancient order, but other than that it was all additions - the Minor Propers being the most obvious.

PD

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Maureen Lash
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For the information of PD and others who have shown an interest, I am reliably informed that the form of service in use at St Luke's Southport is the Interim Rite with the prayers at the preparatory prayers and, on Sundays, the Asperges, added at the beginning and the last gospel at the end. Propers are from the English Gradual and the Ordinary is sung to Merbecke. It is all rather English and not at all exotic. There was a minor disruption to this pattern under the two most recent and short lived priests in charge who used respectively Common Worship in contemporary language and Pope Paul's new mass. In the present interregnum St Lukes has reverted to the Interim Rite with the full support and encouragement of the Bishop of Liverpool.
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Percy B
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But how can the church then say it is English Missal, and seem to make a particular point of saying it, and it being a big part of its identity.

Come to think of it am I not understanding here. Is 'interim 'rite more or less English Missal?

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PD
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The English Missal incorporates the "Interim Rite" which was the 1662 BCP prayers rearranged into something resembling the traditional shape. The EM version is something close to:

Collect for Purity
(Ninefold Kyrie)
Gloria
Collect
Epistle
Gospel
Creed
Sermon
Offertory
Prayer for the Church Malignant
Invitation and
General Confession
Absolution and Comfy Words
Sursum Corda
Preface
Sanctus
(Benedictus)
Humble Access
Consecration
Oblation
Lord's Prayer
(Pax)
(Agnus Dei)
=Communion=
Thanksgiving
Blessing

The only imports were the Kyrie, the Benedictus, Pax, and Sanctus, but there had been a pretty extreme rearrangement of the rest. To this is added the Preparation and Private Prayers of the celebrant from the Roman Rite, and the minor propers.

Those of us who were interim rite, but a bit less brave would usually leave the Gloria before the Blessing, and simply Substitute the ninefold Kyrie for the Decalogue. There were a slack handful of other variants, but the general idea was to 'put the Canon' back together - i.e. to have the Prayer of Consecration followed by the Oblation and the Lord's Prayer before the Communion of Priest and People.

PD

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Comper's Child
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So forgive my ignorance, but what exactly was "interim" about the Interim Rite? Who made it up or rather where did it come from? Was it an "accepted" rite, or merely a cobbled together A/C thing?
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PD
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It kind of happened after World War I as a stop gap until the revision then under way could be completed. Most bishop's turned a blind eye to the fact that quite a few clergy were taking liberties with the BCP Communion service - usually saying the Kyrie instead of the Decalogue and placing the Prayer of Oblation after the Consecration. I guess you could say it had a degree of authorization.

PD

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As a priest who has celebrated all the Anglican liturgies, let me assure you that the 1549 Anglican Mass is anyting but a museum piece for tens of thousands who strive to take God seriously. The 1662 Prayerbook and its counterparts seem more a museum piece; but the ancient liturgies are eternal.
The American Episcopal 1979 Prayerbook seems more a museum piece now than it ever has. I knew a priest who served with Margaret Mead on the liturgical commission that produced it. Well-intended, it now strikes one as something sort of forlornly cultic and oblique.

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PD
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Anselmo I suspect your comments rather eflect your churchmanship rather than an objective reality. My own perception is that 1549 is really cumbersome and archaic; 1662, etc., are old-fashioned but still workable, and the 1979 BCP is 'help - seventies shit!' Suspect the whole thing definitely a YMMV issues. However, my two disclaimers are that I am Anglo-Irish and High Church.

PD

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by anselmo:
The American Episcopal 1979 Prayerbook seems more a museum piece now than it ever has. I knew a priest who served with Margaret Mead on the liturgical commission that produced it. Well-intended, it now strikes one as something sort of forlornly cultic and oblique.

Which made me laugh out loud, as I'm in a parish that uses the 1979 daily and find it anything but the way you've described it. Different strokes...
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PD
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Most liturgies work when they are celebrated in a way that says - 'this is how we do that worship thing - get over yourself!' When some feels they have to explain/apologize/mess with shit all the time, then it is a fail no matter which liturgy you use.

I have always seen attracted to that element in the catholic movement in Anglicanism whose attitude is basically 'this is the Mass - its what we do!' I like a real clear structure which is free from the intrusive presence of the presider, and is God-focussed.

For this reason, the English Missal/Interim Rite tradition is attractive to me.

PD

[ 19. May 2013, 06:01: Message edited by: PD ]

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Percy B
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Is the EM rite you refer to PD of a specific edition of the English Missal? I understand there are significant differences between the editions of that. missal.

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Is the EM rite you refer to PD of a specific edition of the English Missal? I understand there are significant differences between the editions of that. missal.

I am probably thinking of the 1958 edition which is the one with which I am most familiar. However, there was a little bit of tinkering being done even with that version to accomodate the fact that the parish had the Green Book (A Shorter PB) in the pews!

PD

[ 20. May 2013, 01:08: Message edited by: PD ]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Most liturgies work when they are celebrated in a way that says - 'this is how we do that worship thing - get over yourself!' When some feels they have to explain/apologize/mess with shit all the time, then it is a fail no matter which liturgy you use.

I have always seen attracted to that element in the catholic movement in Anglicanism whose attitude is basically 'this is the Mass - its what we do!' I like a real clear structure which is free from the intrusive presence of the presider, and is God-focussed.

For this reason, the English Missal/Interim Rite tradition is attractive to me.

PD

This.

The principal of an unnamed but easily guessed theological college has apparently been heard to remark, on being told that the liturgy is complex or arcane: "This is what the Church does" which I think is a superbly robust approach to inhabiting one's liturgy.

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

The principal of an unnamed but easily guessed theological college has apparently been heard to remark, on being told that the liturgy is complex or arcane: "This is what the Church does" which I think is a superbly robust approach to inhabiting one's liturgy.

Mike Ovey?

Thurible

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

The principal of an unnamed but easily guessed theological college has apparently been heard to remark, on being told that the liturgy is complex or arcane: "This is what the Church does" which I think is a superbly robust approach to inhabiting one's liturgy.

Mike Ovey?

Thurible

No comment [Snigger]

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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Is the EM rite you refer to PD of a specific edition of the English Missal? I understand there are significant differences between the editions of that. missal.

I am probably thinking of the 1958 edition which is the one with which I am most familiar. However, there was a little bit of tinkering being done even with that version to accomodate the fact that the parish had the Green Book (A Shorter PB) in the pews!

PD

I'm almost sure the 1958 edition of the English Missal was the last edition of it. I think it integrated Roman and Anglican lections and collects more than earlier editions.

Despite finding it difficult among us here to find a church which actually uses the English Missal rite, rather than just as a resource book, I think the English Missal has been the most widely used of the Anglican Missals.

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PD
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# 12436

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Yes, 1958 was the last edition of the EM, and the Canterbury Press reprint is a photographic reproduction of it. I think if the brew of influences had been a little different when I was a teenager I would have ended up being a the sort of Anglo-Catholic who usually uses the modern Rite, but uses the EM occasionally just to remind folks of how it was done. As it happens my background was considerably more moderate. I was used to an environment that was middle in ceremonial and moderately catholic in theology.

PD

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Percy B
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PD - as ever very interesting. Thanks.

Now you mention how it was done... How was it done?

By which I mean which book of ritual guided the priest through the English Missal? I suppose it was Ritual Notes, but that too, as I understand it went through many editions, and was more a dip in and out resource than slavishly followed. Right?

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PD
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Ritual Notes was one possibility, though some purists used to sit up at nights fitting Fortescue to the English Missal. The various editions of Ritual Notes tended appear tended to appear after the various revisions made by Rome, so the John XXIII reform is embodied in 1964 edition; the New Holy Week in RN 10 (1957); the late 1930s clean up of the Pian Missal in the 9th edition, and so on and so forth.

It all gets a bit convoluted as not only did Ritual Notes'editor have to take account of Rome's twitching about, but the fact that Anglo-Catholics were using both the English Missal and the Anglican Missal. You tend to find that the editors of RN take a middle course between the two versions in the hopes of satisfying both. However, this becomes less of an issue as time passes as the Anglican Missal (SSPP, 1921) gradually became less opular as time passed.

All I can say is thank goodness I am English Use!

PD

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