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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: State Funeral for Thatcher
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
As I write, it doesn't seem clear as to whether or not Herself will receive a State Funeral, but if she does, what liturgy/music would Shipmates deem suitable? Given that her background was Methodist, perhaps some rousing Wesley hymns would be appropriate?
Over to you.....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O dear God - they're not going to wheel on Elton John, are they.....?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The Rope-Holders Hymn has good Nonconformist credentials, admittedly Baptist rather than Methodist ...
[ 08. April 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Oh, and just when I was congratulating myself on avoiding all this business...
Anyways, I last I saw it was being reported that the Baroness will receive an official funeral in St. Paul's but not a state one 'in accordance with her wishes'.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
When I was a boy we used to sing a chorus which started "Marching beneath the banner, fighting beneath the Cross". This could be sung by a Trades Union choir, to wistfully bring back happy memories of industrial conflict that occurred during her reign.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
The Baroness will receive an official funeral in St. Paul's but not a state one 'in accordance with her wishes'.
That's nicely ambiguous - you imply that her wishes were for a State one but that she won't get it. Which isn't, I think, what you meant!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
I remember reading that although Baroness Thatcher was raised Methodist, she became an Anglican.
Great Welsh hymns would be "Immortal, Invisible" and "Guide me O, Thou Great Redeemer/Jehovah."
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Remembering Thatcher's address to the Church of Scotland General Assembly on the subject of the Good Samaritan, "When I needed a neighbour, were you there?" should be a no-brainer! Perhaps Iain Duncan-Smith could bring a few of his friends down from Easterhouse to sing it.
I'll shut up now.
[ 08. April 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
quoted by Bishop's Finger
what liturgy/music would Shipmates deem suitable? Given that her background was Methodist, perhaps some rousing Wesley hymns would be appropriate?
- the Croft/Purcell settings of The Sentences
- Guide me, O thou great Redeemer
- The God of love my Shepherd is (Psalm 23)
- Parry's setting of Tennyson's Crossing the Bar as a motet
- Sunset played by the band of HM Royal Marines
- Praise, my soul, the King of Heaven
- Elgar's Imperial March as the coffin leaves the cathedral
Yes, yes, yes - all very trad but probably acceptable to her family (who are, after all, the people whose wishes should be paramount) and leaves very little to arouse the ire of the nit-pickers in the press the next day.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leaves very little to arouse the ire of the nit-pickers in the press the next day.
Sorry, I had to come in here ... thinking of the way she went for ++Runcie after the 1982 post-Falklands thanksgiving service, I think we most definitely want to include some nit-picker-ire-arousing hymns!
Being more serious, yes of course we should respect the wishes of her friends and family, as for any funeral. The problem is that on these "big" occasions issues like "protocol" and "national sentiment" can easily take precedence, or so I'd assume.
[ 08. April 2013, 16:55: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Baptist trainfan
The problem is that on these "big" occasions issues like "protocol" and "national sentiment" can easily take precedence, or so I'd assume.
I don't think so: otherwise, do you really think the powers-that-be would have chosen I vow to thee my country and the dreadful warbling by Elton John in 1997?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I just heard a clip of her on Desert Island Discs requesting the Largo from Dvorak's 'New World Symphony,' aka 'Going Home', as played by brass band. Entirely suitable for her funeral I would have thought. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Tasteless, Angloid, but ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Some sort of funeral pyre on parliament square as befits the iron lady, nordic style?
Wagner - "The Twilight" surely a la Arthur in Excalibur?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
... featuring the Grimethorpe Colliery Band with Tara Fitzgerald pretending to play the Flugelhorn, and of course a ballet solo from "Billy Elliott".
[ 08. April 2013, 22:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.
Thurible
They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.
Thurible
They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune
But not the after-rugby lyrics, I hope.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... Yes, yes, yes - all very trad but probably acceptable to her family (who are, after all, the people whose wishes should be paramount)...
Not if it's being made a public occasion they aren't.
If she were having a funeral normal and appropriate to someone of her background and class like any other retired Prime Minister, then what her family wish for should prevail. This disturbing innovation though, means their wishes should defer to whoever is planning the occasion - whether the family like it or not.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Will there be Prayers for the Departed? Will she be sent off to the 1662 service, and therefore receive no personal mention in the liturgy?
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
'The Self-Preservation Society', 'The Family of Man' and 'She's only the Grocer's Daughter'.
[ 09. April 2013, 10:14: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.
Thurible
They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune
Indeed. That would be insensitive, though, I'm sure. So, they should stick to singing a hymn to the same tune. I'm sure it would help those objecting to this monstrous waste of money feel slightly better.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
"The Red Flag" goes much better to "The White Cockade", anyway. So:
"When wilt thou save the people/ O God of mercy when?"
"O God of Earth and Altar"
"Judge Eternal, throned in Splendour"
Kipling's Recessional.
The last three are the kind of thing that could slip in under the radar of the kind of dim Tory who can't be arsed to think about what they are actually saying.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Helen Eva
Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.
...no, please. You and I both know it'll be the Sebastian Temple thing which will spark endless requests for weddings, funerals, etc. (I'm losing the will to live at the very thought...)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Albertus: Kipling's recessional???
I agree it went down well with the congregation at the funeral of Louis Mountbatten - but then it could be argued it was highly appropriate for the last Viceroy?
Perhaps something rather more contemplative - how about "Lord, it belongs not to my care" to St Botolph? Fine words by Baxter, pace a quibbler might say that, given the tense, it shouldn't be sung at a funeral - and the tune guaranteed to flummox the great-good-unchurched who'll be filling the nave of St Paul's.
** Better organ recessional would be the Triumphal March from Elgar's Caractacus d'you think?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Have a look at Recessional. It's all about the futility of nationalistic pride. Alas, as Mrs T moved further from her roots into her sort of neo-Boudicca/ Gloriana persona, she did rather tend towards that.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I know recessional well - lots of requests for it at funerals in my part of the world, for some reason. Not just our cousins from across the pond who don't "do" irony.
Seriously, I think because it IS Kipling people assume it to be wildly patriotic in a gung-ho way...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
posted by Helen Eva
Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.
...no, please. You and I both know it'll be the Sebastian Temple thing which will spark endless requests for weddings, funerals, etc. (I'm losing the will to live at the very thought...)
L'organist, alas I think Helen Eva's right.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I suggest
"Once to every man and nation"
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Albertus got in first with two that I would have suggested "O god of earth and altar", and "When wilt thou save the people", which my mother rejected for her own funeral - she wanted them, but thought that they would alienate the good people of the village who had so obviously rejoiced when Thatcher first got in.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I suggest
"Once to every man and nation"
Two serious theological errors and the nastiest imagery I've encountered in a hymn. No. Particularly not if it's televised.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
How about a bit of penitential purcell ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Is everyone here just intent on throwing his own little not-so-funny-or-clever political point into this topic or what? Why is nobody interested in which liturgy will be used? This is a funeral. Diana's was politicized and an altogether ugly affair for it. This just needs to be thorougly Christian.
Let the Lord do the talking and save your student union politics for somewhere else.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I may have missed something up thread, but didn't the deceased herself express enthusiasm for a hymn "O valiant hearts" which I remember Ken Leech condemning as blasphemous as it identified with Christ those who had fallen in military combat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6q6Z_FonF0
(Click on that link and you can also hear "opera" singer Katherine Jenkins singing "I vow to thee my country", as chosen for Lady Diana Spencer for her wedding.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is a funeral. Diana's was politicized and an altogether ugly affair for it. This just needs to be thorougly Christian.
Politicised is my fear. Perhaps the crucial question is whether there will be a sermon from some clergyperson or a eulogy from some party hack. Hopefully the Palace will warn them off the latter or the Queen is going to very much regret turning up and getting tarred with a party political brush.
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The Queen attended Churchill's funeral, but has she been to those of any other PM? My recollection is that she does not, but rather sends a formal wreath.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The Queen attended Churchill's funeral, but has she been to those of any other PM? My recollection is that she does not, but rather sends a formal wreath.
You are correct - she has not attended the funeral of any of her other PMs, although she certainly went to a memorial service for Harold Macmillan. She usually sends a representative - Prince Charles went to Harold Wilson's.
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
And I think searching back would show that the monarch did not attend any previous State or ceremonial funerals, going back into the 19th century like Gladstone or Wellington, except where the person was connected to the royal family, such as the Queen Mother obviously or Lord Mountbatten.
Churchill has been very much a one off and should have remained one IMHO.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
... Churchill has been very much a one off and should have remained one IMHO.
I agree. Lloyd George, who was also controversial and flawed, but a greater and more significant Prime Minister than Mrs Thatcher, was buried at Llanystumdwy. There was a large turnout, in spite of its being war time, but it was not a public event.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Is everyone here just intent on throwing his own little ... political point into this topic or what?
Yep.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
Maybe she and the queen were friends.
I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.
Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Maybe [Mrs T] and the queen were friends.
I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.
Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".
The rumours are certainly the opposite of them being friends. If The Queen gives permission for a ceremonial funeral, though, it'd presumably be a bit odd for her not to attend.
As for protests, I would be very much surprised if there weren't some. Had it been a private funeral, I'd've disapproved heartily. As it is, if it's to be a public event, public protest would seem reasonable. I hope, as you imply, though, that they're not violent.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, you're right. I would have disapprived of a protest. But as you say, they've chosen to make it a public event: they can bloody well atke the consequences. As long as the protest is non-violent, preferably silent, and dignified. I'd suggest something along the lines of 'Ceremonial funeral for Thatcher: Not In My Name' on banners and/ or T shirts
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
Maybe she and the queen were friends.
I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.
Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".
A service to commemorate those who died at Hillsborough (which Thatcher helped to cover-up, of course) will happen as usual at Anfield on the 15th.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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