Source: (consider it)
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Thread: State Funeral for Thatcher
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
As someone remarked on Twitter, she'd tell Lazarus to pull up his socks, stop winging and go earn his own living!
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid: quote: Originally posted by L'organist:
As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.
Haven't you rather missed the point, L'organist? This text may well be fine as liturgy but in the context of the funeral of one who demonised the poor and would feel decidedly uncomfortable in the company of Lazarus, it's either a delicious jibe or an inappropriate sentiment.
Unless it's talking about the poverty that some on the right prefer to focus on: Poverty of the spirit.
-------------------- The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chorister: As someone remarked on Twitter, she'd tell Lazarus to pull up his socks, stop winging and go earn his own living!
Oh dear, and I thought I was being original- still, great minds and all that...
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: quote: Originally posted by Angloid: quote: Originally posted by L'organist:
As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.
Haven't you rather missed the point, L'organist? This text may well be fine as liturgy but in the context of the funeral of one who demonised the poor and would feel decidedly uncomfortable in the company of Lazarus, it's either a delicious jibe or an inappropriate sentiment.
Unless it's talking about the poverty that some on the right prefer to focus on: Poverty of the spirit.
Possibly. But the gist of Jesus's story about Dives and Lazarus was the punishment of the rich man because he spurned the poor man at his gate. Not because someone was feeling a little 'poor in spirit'.
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anglican't: The full Order of Service can be found here.
And this also has comments appended by her biographer. Even if his 'entirely English' list of composers includes the Irishman Stanford.
His analysis of I vow to Thee my country elicited feelings that would be more appropriate for Hell, however.
-------------------- Flinging wide the gates...
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
One Irishman, and three Englishmen with Welsh names.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Funeral was admirably carried out.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Yes. One eye on the funeral and one on the live web-cast of the NZ Parliament passing the Equal Marriage Bill... historic day all round.
-------------------- She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: Funeral was admirably carried out.
A reminder of what the public sector (armed forces, CofE) can do, eh?
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Anselmina Funeral was admirably carried out.
... but the commentary by David Dimbleby on the BBC was dreadful and littered with mistakes:
"under Nelson's Column" - really???
"2 Archbishops very much unrobed" - no, they weren't naked but in cassocks only, so presumably Dimbers thinks cassocks aren't robes?
card on flowers read "Always in our Hearts" - which Dimblepuppy read as "..in our minds" ???
"2 thrones where she'll (The Queen) be sitting" - (i) I think he meant chairs, (ii) is he implying the monarch is so vast she needs more than 1?
"In paradisum deducant Angeli" - as in Angela Merkel?
(over pictures of grandchildren Amanda and Michael Thatcher) "and there the two granddaughters" !!!
(as we see the hearse turning left to go along Cheapside) "and the hearse leaves by the same route down Ludgate Hill"
"heading for the Royal Hospital and Chelsea" - in fact it was going to Mortlake Crematorium
There were many, many more. Very depressing but wholly predictable
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: "2 Archbishops very much unrobed" - no, they weren't naked but in cassocks only, so presumably Dimbers thinks cassocks aren't robes?
In which case, he's entirely right.
Thurible
-------------------- "I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
... maybe, Thurible, but only by accident.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
It was a lovely service,the music was sublime,the hymns,well chosen were sung with great gusto. However I missed at the end of service the sprinkling of the coffin with holy/baptismal water.
-------------------- Robert Kennedy
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
He said they were entirely unrobed, when they weren't wearing robes, and it was by accident?
Thurible
-------------------- "I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Yes SKY was much better and uninterrupted Btw, what was ++Justin's cope with the scarlet facings all about? [ 17. April 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Galilit ]
-------------------- She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Very nice. Did I catch an RC Archbishop reading a prayer from the BCP?
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
You did: it was Grace Kelly, Archbishop Emeritus of Liverpool. Not sure if he as representing the Catholic Church of Old Labour
-------------------- ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I agree that Dimbleby was a bit clueless sounding at times. It could've been worse. And well done to Bishop Chartres for what must've been a tough preaching gig.
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Trisagion: You did: it was Grace Kelly, Archbishop Emeritus of Liverpool. Not sure if he as representing the Catholic Church of Old Labour
What you mean to say is His Grace Patrick Kelly who recently retired as Archbishop of Liverpool.
The late Princess Grace Kelly was Prince Rainier's consort in Monaco - you know!
-------------------- Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I'm surprised at Fr Dcn Trisagion for making such a mistake.
Thurible
-------------------- "I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
The commentary on the service by her biographer is theologically dire. To take John 14 and turn it into a political speech is worse than anything Mrs T ever said herself - it makes her into the Messiah.
Barmen Declaration anyone?
-------------------- "I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Charles Read: The commentary on the service by her biographer is theologically dire. To take John 14 and turn it into a political speech is worse than anything Mrs T ever said herself - it makes her into the Messiah.
Barmen Declaration anyone?
State funerals are always going to have something of the Erastian about them, but that is particularly bad.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Thurible: I'm surprised at Fr Dcn Trisagion for making such a mistake.
Thurible
Oh yes! Silly me.
-------------------- ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Further to the discussion of the funeral bell ringing upthread, details of the performances are being linked from here.
-------------------- The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions". Of course it's an oft-used funeral reading - but did anyone else think of sold-off Council houses, even momentarily?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Just been reading the report of the funeral in The Age, which used to be a quality broadsheet, but in recent years has turned itself into an Antipodean version of The Guardian.
Its Europe correspondent described the readings as coming from the "St James Bible".
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: Just been reading the report of the funeral in The Age, which used to be a quality broadsheet, but in recent years has turned itself into an Antipodean version of The Guardian.
Its Europe correspondent described the readings as coming from the "St James Bible".
An error committed more than once over the years by the Sydney Morning Herald's religious correspondent. It makes you wonder a bit, doesn't it.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yes, but it's hardly surprising really. Take a step back into a hazy half-recollected knowledge of Christianity, and which seems more likely - that a Bible translation would be named for a saint contemporaneous with Jesus, or some random King of England and Scotland?
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Baptist Trainfan On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions".
Why? Are you unfamiliar with the Authorised Version (sometimes called the "King James'" of the Bible? It was absolutely standard until at least the 1960s and is still in daily use in those places where they consider it more appropriate/less jarring for use in BCP liturgies than a more modern translation.
quote: Of course it's an oft-used funeral reading ...
Yes, it is a passage used at many funerals. For myself, I prefer Revelation 21:1-7 - from the Authorised Version, of course.
quote: ... - but did anyone else think of sold-off Council houses, even momentarily?
No. Why would a reading about Christ going on to the hereafter before his discples make me think of social housing?
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Your faux-naivete strikes me as tongue in cheek. Please confirm that it is!
Thurible
-------------------- "I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I've been accused of innocence or naivety but infrequently...
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Phew!
Thurible
-------------------- "I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by leo: I bet they'll have 'I vow to thee my country'
I won that bet.
I've long thought, "And there's another country, I've heard of long ago", one of the saddest lines in any hymn.
I always thought that 'long ago' referred to life before birth - as in the Wordsworth poem that was quoted in the service booklet: quote: Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar: Not in entire forgetfulness,
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Leo
I wonder if St Paul's borrowed them?
No.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Meaning what? That they stole them, or that they have their own set?
Ian J.
-------------------- Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: quote: posted by Baptist Trainfan On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions".
Why? Are you unfamiliar with the Authorised Version (sometimes called the "King James'" of the Bible?
L'organist: that's the second time in this thread that you have missed the point of the post. I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so.
I repeat -
Ian J.
-------------------- Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: I thought that the reading from Ephesians was most apt, with its talk of fighting "powers and principalities".
Walter Wink had a lot to say about that.
Exactly.
In opposing communism in general and the Soviet Union in particular, she was opposing one of the twentieth century's worst examples of that systemic dehumanisation about which he had so much to say.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Angloid I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.
I too have a working knowledge of the AV version.
On the subject of housing, you are entitled to that opinion but some of us may not share it.
quote: posted by Bishop's Finger
I was informed by a St Paul's regular that the copes were from a set (perhaps sets?) that the Cathedral owns; of course, they could be wrong?
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid: While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: quote: posted by Angloid I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.
I too have a working knowledge of the AV version.
On the subject of housing, you are entitled to that opinion but some of us may not share it.
If you are lucky enough to afford your own house maybe not. If I'm wrong, and you are in fact living in a damp flat on a sink estate because all the decent houses have been sold off, my apologies.
There are arguments in favour of council house tenants being able to buy their own houses. But none that I can see to support Thatcher's ban on councils using the money to build new ones.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: quote: Originally posted by Angloid: While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".
I'm not suggesting Thatcher's crimes were of the same magnitude. Though cuddling up to dictators like Pinochet while opposing Soviet tyranny seems like double standards. Not to mention the hypocrisy of exalting individualism while treating whole groups of people as faceless masses or 'the enemy within'.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Angloid If you are lucky enough to afford your own house maybe not. If I'm wrong, and you are in fact living in a damp flat on a sink estate because all the decent houses have been sold off, my apologies.
There are arguments in favour of council house tenants being able to buy their own houses. But none that I can see to support Thatcher's ban on councils using the money to build new ones.
1. Own home, semi, 2 bedroom, small garden. Very tight squeeze with 2 children home during the university vacs and no storage space - have 3 sheds!
2. The council house sales were fine but I agree, not building to replace was insane.
3. The biggest, IMHO, sin committed was the scrapping of Parker Morris standards with the result that the UK's new homes are amongst the smallest on the planet. How do we expect children to do homework when one tiny living room is expected to be parental leisure space, dining room, home office, etc, etc, etc - and don't say bedroom: my step-daughter has a 3rd bedroom that won't fit a standard size single bed
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid: quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: quote: Originally posted by Angloid: While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".
I'm not suggesting Thatcher's crimes were of the same magnitude. Though cuddling up to dictators like Pinochet while opposing Soviet tyranny seems like double standards. Not to mention the hypocrisy of exalting individualism while treating whole groups of people as faceless masses or 'the enemy within'.
Continuing the tangent, in any case, she helped out Jaruzelski here in Poland through buying coal from miners here, thus helping to prop up the regime. She also initially supported Martial Law.
Wink was also, by the way, supportive of the Liberation Theologists in South America, who were, as he put it, "engaged in spiritual warfare (insofar as they are fighting against systems that dominate and exploit people)".
-------------------- The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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