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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parish Communion movement
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
With the disappearance of Matins there is a new development: in many parishes (where I attend included) disinclined to have 3 readings at the parish communion, Matins or Evensong is often the only place where an Old Testament reading is heard.
Why? Page 5 of the red Lectionary clearly states:
"In the choice of readings other than the Gospel reading, the minister should ensure that, in any year, a balance is maintained between readings from the Old Testament and the New Testament."
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Poppy
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# 2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
With the disappearance of Matins there is a new development: in many parishes (where I attend included) disinclined to have 3 readings at the parish communion, Matins or Evensong is often the only place where an Old Testament reading is heard.
Why? Page 5 of the red Lectionary clearly states:
"In the choice of readings other than the Gospel reading, the minister should ensure that, in any year, a balance is maintained between readings from the Old Testament and the New Testament."
Three readings at the main service are the norm in in the team of churches I work in and we range from open evo to angolo catholic in churchmanship. Most of the Anglican churches around us are in the conservative evanglelical tradition where they seem to be preaching on a theme rather than looking at the lectionary each week and going ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
With the disappearance of Matins there is a new development: in many parishes (where I attend included) disinclined to have 3 readings at the parish communion, Matins or Evensong is often the only place where an Old Testament reading is heard.
Why? Page 5 of the red Lectionary clearly states:
"In the choice of readings other than the Gospel reading, the minister should ensure that, in any year, a balance is maintained between readings from the Old Testament and the New Testament."
Two reasons, I would think.
1. Closet Marcionism.
2. A lack of knowledge and understanding of the Old Testament and its context, leading to a reluctance to deal with it in sermons and fear that the weirder passages may scare the congregation.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
I have just been doing some more reading and it seems like the founders of the Parish Communion movement had quite a strict definition of what a proper Parish Communion arrangement constituted.
First of all, a Eucharist which was intended to be the main service of the day and to which all communicate. Thus it was important for any other Sunday services to be seen as secondary. I had forgotten that Hebert had described the non-communicating High Mass as a "mutilated rite"!
Secondly, congregational participation through the prayers, the offertory procession, and responses through the liturgy and the music.
Thirdly, everyone worshipping together - rather than specific provision for children or family services.
People's expectation of fasting suggested that the service should begin by 9.30am at the latest, though there appeared to be a divergence of views as to whether fasting prior to communion was in fact required.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I have just been doing some more reading and it seems like the founders of the Parish Communion movement had quite a strict definition of what a proper Parish Communion arrangement constituted.
First of all, a Eucharist which was intended to be the main service of the day and to which all communicate. Thus it was important for any other Sunday services to be seen as secondary. I had forgotten that Hebert had described the non-communicating High Mass as a "mutilated rite"!
Secondly, congregational participation through the prayers, the offertory procession, and responses through the liturgy and the music.
It is my understanding that the return of the offertory procession was something restored to the liturgy in the 1960s in the RCC, immediately followed by others, whereas the parish communion movement in the C of E dates to the interwar era, with roots at the turn of the last century. Therefore, it would seem that the parish communion movement was alive and well quite some time before offertory processions became de rigueur once again.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
It is my understanding that the return of the offertory procession was something restored to the liturgy in the 1960s in the RCC, immediately followed by others, whereas the parish communion movement in the C of E dates to the interwar era, with roots at the turn of the last century. Therefore, it would seem that the parish communion movement was alive and well quite some time before offertory processions became de rigueur once again. [/QB][/QUOTE]
That's certainly what I thought but there are certainly references to offertory processions in Anglican Parish Communions in the 1930s (see the SCM Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship)- this led to censure by Michael Ramsey whilst Bishop of Durham in the 1950s about possible mis-interpretation of what this represented.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Just thought that the reason L'organist's church doesn't hear the Old Testament at Holy Communion is because they use the BCP epistles and gospels.
If they did what Thomas Cranmer expected, they would of course already have heard the OT reading at Morning Prayer.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
The old Roman Rite only has the Epistle and Gospel too with the Old Testament is heard mainly in the hours.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The old Roman Rite only has the Epistle and Gospel too with the Old Testament is heard mainly in the hours.
But as that was in Latin and nobody could understand it anyway, it didn't matter so much.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The old Roman Rite only has the Epistle and Gospel too with the Old Testament is heard mainly in the hours.
But as that was in Latin and nobody could understand it anyway, it didn't matter so much.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) So does the Byzantine Rite have only the Epistle and Gospel. But as were talking about Anglican liturgy...one can't separate the mass from the hours: both are the prayer of the Church and thus of equal importance.
[ 20. April 2013, 19:15: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Venbede
Just thought that the reason L'organist's church doesn't hear the Old Testament at Holy Communion is because they use the BCP epistles and gospels.
Actually no. Not sure what the reasoning is - have asked but the most coherent (!) answers I've ever got are "having 3 readings makes the service too long" and "I get fed up hearing the proper names in the OT mangled".
From this you will, correctly, infer that (a) any parish eucharist (a term deemed dangerously "high" by some of the congregation!) a minute over the hour is seen as a major problem, even at major festivals, and (b) we once had a slightly sniffy DD as incumbent.
But at BCP Matins ...
Generally, the Old Testament is seen as something to be covered in Sunday School - which takes place at the same time as the main service (no, children don't come in for communion) or at non-eucharistic services. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
But then in our diocese they are so busy trying to ensure a parish doesn't have a priest (we foud our own) you're just grateful to have services at all. Methinks we're long overdue a new archdeacon
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Our parish had non-communicating Solemn High Mass at 11 for some years r.
I don't recall the exact year, but it would have been I think 1958 or 59, attending the High Mass at your church. It was non-communicating, and I can recall the MC (nicknamed 'the mountain of lace' closing the gates in the screen after the offertory.
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Quam Dilecta
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# 12541
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Posted
Until the 1960's (before my time), my decidedly Anglo-Catholic parish had four Sunday Masses, Low Masses at 7 A.M. and 8 A.M., a sung "Family Mass" at 9 A.M., and a High Mass at 11 A.M. The early masses included neither sermon nor music. The "Family Mass" must have been similar to those promoted by the Parish Communion movement in England, with simple choral or congregational Mass settings. At the High Mass, which was non-communicating; the music was rendered by a choir of men and boys.
I am told that the 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock Masses drew quite distinct congregations. By the 1970's, the four Masses had been consolidated to two: a Low mass at 8 A.M. and a High Mass (no longer non-communicating) at 10 A.M. This pattern has persisted to the present day.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Up until the 1970s most big city Anglo-Catholic parishes had a Sunday morning Mass schedule that looked like Southwest Airways' schedule between LAX and Las Vegas with Masses on the hour everyhour until they ran out of priests. The Local RC shack would have been exactly the same.
PD
[ 21. April 2013, 05:22: Message edited by: PD ]
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Up until the 1970s most big city Anglo-Catholic parishes had a Sunday morning Mass schedule that looked like Southwest Airways' schedule between LAX and Las Vegas with Masses on the hour everyhour until they ran out of priests. The Local RC shack would have been exactly the same.
PD
Indeed! I remember those days. "Assembly line masses" I called them.
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Up until the 1970s most big city Anglo-Catholic parishes had a Sunday morning Mass schedule that looked like Southwest Airways' schedule between LAX and Las Vegas with Masses on the hour everyhour until they ran out of priests. The Local RC shack would have been exactly the same.
PD
The difference being in the (R) Catholic parish there would have been simultaneous masses in the upper AND lower churches on the hour.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Until the 1960's (before my time), my decidedly Anglo-Catholic parish had four Sunday Masses, Low Masses at 7 A.M. and 8 A.M., a sung "Family Mass" at 9 A.M., and a High Mass at 11 A.M. The early masses included neither sermon nor music. The "Family Mass" must have been similar to those promoted by the Parish Communion movement in England, with simple choral or congregational Mass settings. At the High Mass, which was non-communicating; the music was rendered by a choir of men and boys.
I am told that the 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock Masses drew quite distinct congregations. By the 1970's, the four Masses had been consolidated to two: a Low mass at 8 A.M. and a High Mass (no longer non-communicating) at 10 A.M. This pattern has persisted to the present day.
I think it's also interesting to note that - in the UK - it seems that with the almost universal adoption of at least one morning Eucharistic service, a service at 10.30am or before generally tends to have a congregational setting, and anything later tends to be fully choral, part of this historical legacy.
8am Communion seems to have persisited pretty well: it would be interesting to know if those that attend still maintain the fasting practice.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Up until the 1970s most big city Anglo-Catholic parishes had a Sunday morning Mass schedule that looked like Southwest Airways' schedule between LAX and Las Vegas with Masses on the hour everyhour until they ran out of priests. The Local RC shack would have been exactly the same.
PD
The difference being in the (R) Catholic parish there would have been simultaneous masses in the upper AND lower churches on the hour.
Where do yu put the bar if you have another church in the basement?
Inquiring Anglo-catholic minds want to know...
PD
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
You don't - you support local enterprise by going to the pub up (or down) the street!
Ian J.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
ACs do: RCs of course have 'St Whatever's Catholic Sports & Social Club' round the corner.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I think it's also interesting to note that - in the UK - it seems that with the almost universal adoption of at least one morning Eucharistic service, a service at 10.30am or before generally tends to have a congregational setting, and anything later tends to be fully choral, part of this historical legacy.
You're speaking of a tiny minority of churches here. There are very few churches these days with the resources to provide choral music or even a choir. Even the prestigious city centre parish that I know well has a congregational setting at its main mass and occasionally imports a small professional choir for special occasions. As for the great majority of suburban, inner city or especially rural parishes, forget it, unless there is a rare combination of a musical vicar, a keen organist/choir director, and willing volunteers.
Central London, as always, may be different.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I don't go to the pub because I'm concerned to support local businesses. I go to the pub because I want a drink.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
You're speaking of a tiny minority of churches here. There are very few churches these days with the resources to provide choral music or even a choir. Even the prestigious city centre parish that I know well has a congregational setting at its main mass and occasionally imports a small professional choir for special occasions. As for the great majority of suburban, inner city or especially rural parishes, forget it, unless there is a rare combination of a musical vicar, a keen organist/choir director, and willing volunteers.
Central London, as always, may be different. [/QUOTE]
That may be your experience but it's not mine. Putting the exception of Central London aside, almost every suburban (Anglican) parish church in London has a choir (most of them robed, but admitedly variable in quality), and there are a significant minority that use choral mass settings either weekly or once a month.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Maybe. I think London generally (not just the centre) is different. In my experience (and some of it is in inner-suburban London) even when there is a choir all they do is lead the hymns and a simple mass setting that all are encouraged to join in. Maybe they contribute an occasional anthem but that is all.
Not that there is anything wrong with that approach. I prefer it personally. But if you are looking for Mozart or Palestrina or even something much less ambitious, there will be only a few churches that provide it.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
Liturgylover asks: quote:
8am Communion seems to have persisited pretty well: it would be interesting to know if those that attend still maintain the fasting practice.
As far as I can tell (speaking here of Ottawa, Toronto and Montréal), about half of the 8.00 am crowd seem to be fasters. While only a few have told me outright that they do so, others are heading off to breakfast, to to a local bakery to pick up treats, or off to brunch, would suggest that this is so. I know of some older worshippers who have a light breakfast (fruit, toast and coffee/tea) for health reasons, but the early hour tends to preclude the heavy breakfast crowd. When you add on to this the debauched young who somehow drag themselves from bed for the Holy Mysteries, I think this would total up to about half, perhaps more in summer when folk are freed from fortifying themselves for a pre-dawn winter excursion to church.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
You're speaking of a tiny minority of churches here. There are very few churches these days with the resources to provide choral music or even a choir. Even the prestigious city centre parish that I know well has a congregational setting at its main mass and occasionally imports a small professional choir for special occasions. As for the great majority of suburban, inner city or especially rural parishes, forget it, unless there is a rare combination of a musical vicar, a keen organist/choir director, and willing volunteers.
Central London, as always, may be different.
That may be your experience but it's not mine. Putting the exception of Central London aside, almost every suburban (Anglican) parish church in London has a choir (most of them robed, but admitedly variable in quality), and there are a significant minority that use choral mass settings either weekly or once a month. [/QUOTE]
Maybe they do, but Outside the M25 - yes, that's most of the country - is not London, central or otherwise.
And out here in the wild untamed wilderness beyond Watford most parish churches have a choir of about half a dozen enthusiastic amateurs who do as Angloid describes. Possibly, sometimes, in harmony, but often not.
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
/QUOTE]
Maybe they do, but Outside the M25 - yes, that's most of the country - is not London, central or otherwise.
And out here in the wild untamed wilderness beyond Watford most parish churches have a choir of about half a dozen enthusiastic amateurs who do as Angloid describes. Possibly, sometimes, in harmony, but often not.
Yes, I have ventured outside the M25 - shock, horror - and when I have done so perhaps I have just been lucky in that the parishes that I visited all had choirs (most of which were half decent) Admitedly my experience outside London has been based on fairly large towns, but I have had pleasant surprises in Bibury, Southwold and elsewhere. I am sure it's different in those country places where the priest has to drive from church to church to minister to a handful .
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
/QUOTE]
Maybe they do, but Outside the M25 - yes, that's most of the country - is not London, central or otherwise.
And out here in the wild untamed wilderness beyond Watford most parish churches have a choir of about half a dozen enthusiastic amateurs who do as Angloid describes. Possibly, sometimes, in harmony, but often not.
Yes, I have ventured outside the M25 - shock, horror - and when I have done so perhaps I have just been lucky in that the parishes that I visited all had choirs (most of which were half decent) Admitedly my experience outside London has been based on fairly large towns, but I have had pleasant surprises in Bibury, Southwold and elsewhere. I am sure it's different in those country places where the priest has to drive from church to church to minister to a handful .
And also in suburban churches. I'd suggest you're only likely to find a choir doing the sort of stuff you're referring to in the parish churches of larger towns - you would at St Mary's Chesterfield, for example, and in Bolsover Parish Church, but not in many of the village or suburban parish churches further out from the centre.
We're not out in the sticks, but in the united Benefice where I live there are three churches; only one has a choir and it normally numbers about four and sings in unison.
eta - oh yes, St Mark's Sheffield has (or at least had) a good choir, but it prides itself on its musical tradition and is a big church.
[ 23. April 2013, 15:56: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Liturgylover asks: quote:
8am Communion seems to have persisited pretty well: it would be interesting to know if those that attend still maintain the fasting practice.
As far as I can tell (speaking here of Ottawa, Toronto and Montréal), about half of the 8.00 am crowd seem to be fasters. While only a few have told me outright that they do so, others are heading off to breakfast, to to a local bakery to pick up treats, or off to brunch, would suggest that this is so. I know of some older worshippers who have a light breakfast (fruit, toast and coffee/tea) for health reasons, but the early hour tends to preclude the heavy breakfast crowd. When you add on to this the debauched young who somehow drag themselves from bed for the Holy Mysteries, I think this would total up to about half, perhaps more in summer when folk are freed from fortifying themselves for a pre-dawn winter excursion to church.
That's interesting, thanks. I know there are a real mixture of people who attend the 8am in my local parish, and someone told me today that about half of the regular 20 attendees fast and then go off for coffee together.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The fast before Communion folks attend the earlier of the two Masses here, then disappear off to breakfast. Were it not for the fact there is also a 10.30am Sung Mass I would be one of the fast brigade and there would be breakfast in the Parish House afterwards. I am basically sunk for fasting Communion if Mass starts any later than 9.30am as there is a good chance that hyperglycemia will set in.
Back in the late 1980s, early 1990s I would occasionally attend a nearby Anglo-Catholic parish which generally ran on Merbeck or Martin Shaw. However, about three times a year Father would arrange for a small orchestra and reinforce the choir so they could do a Mozart or Haydn Mass. This was regarded as a great treat by all, though I suspect the highlight for some was the wider range of booze and eats after Mass than usual.
PD
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
I read somewhere that one is exempt from fasting over the age of 60, certainly if it meant fasting from midnight. However, I am over 60 and I would not feel any ill-effects if I chose to fast from midnight.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Back in the late 1980s, early 1990s I would occasionally attend a nearby Anglo-Catholic parish which generally ran on Merbeck or Martin Shaw. However, about three times a year Father would arrange for a small orchestra and reinforce the choir so they could do a Mozart or Haydn Mass. This was regarded as a great treat by all, though I suspect the highlight for some was the wider range of booze and eats after Mass than usual.
PD
Out of interest, PD, what time was this sung communion? I have been surprised when looking at parish websites that a fair few parishes still maintain the practice of a 9.30am sung Communion. There only seem to be one or two now that have them earlier than this.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am basically sunk for fasting Communion if Mass starts any later than 9.30am as there is a good chance that hyperglycemia will set in.
I thought people were except from the fasting rules for medical reasons.
Yes, there is a medical exemption and I suppose I should be glad that there is such a thing. However, I am somewhat old school and I do not particularly enjoy having to breakfast before a morning Mass. I find that with evening Masses I am happiest with either scheduling them quite early - say, 5.30pm - so Mass is before dinner; or quite late - say 8pm, so a fair amount of time has elapsed since tea time.
PD
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Back in the late 1980s, early 1990s I would occasionally attend a nearby Anglo-Catholic parish which generally ran on Merbeck or Martin Shaw. However, about three times a year Father would arrange for a small orchestra and reinforce the choir so they could do a Mozart or Haydn Mass. This was regarded as a great treat by all, though I suspect the highlight for some was the wider range of booze and eats after Mass than usual.
PD
Out of interest, PD, what time was this sung communion? I have been surprised when looking at parish websites that a fair few parishes still maintain the practice of a 9.30am sung Communion. There only seem to be one or two now that have them earlier than this.
Considering this was 20-25 years ago, I think the Sunday Sung/High Mass was always 9.30am, and we fasted. OTOH, if it was a weekday, which I think the "Viennese Masses" tended to be, it was 5.30pm and we were all on our word of honour that we had kept the three hour rule.
PD
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Patrick
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# 305
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Posted
Christ is Risen!
Since Smokey Mary NYC has been mentioned at least twice on this topic, a long time Jesuit friend (Memory Eternal!) recalled how he and his mother would go to the low Mass there at 8AM, have a leisurely breakfast and return for the 11 AM High Mass for "adoration". Indeed, Father Donald Garfield moved St. Mary into the Anglican main steam not only by encouraging Communion by the congregation at the High Mass but also by bringing in Prayer Book devotions, like Litany in procession before the High Mass in Lent. Fr. Garfield was said to have worn a Canterbury Cap and to have carried a copy of the 1549 Prayer Book while a student at General Theological. He was ordained a deacon at the English Use parish of St. John, West Roxbury, Massachusetts, and wore the appareled albs and amices used by Parson Handbook practitioners while he was at that (now defunct) parish. Although, while he was rector at St. Mary, he brought in Passiontide red vestments for Palm Sunday, he kept basically to the Fortescue (but not O'Connell) traditions he inherited from his predecessors at that parish. He was a genius when it came to executing liturgical ceremonial, and the memory of festal processions at St. Mary before the (through his innovation now usually evening) high Masses on the great feasts still bring tears to my eyes. May his memory be eternal!
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Cara
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# 16966
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Posted
Well, how extraordinary and confusing all this is to someone like me, brought up as Catholic in England--so, Mass with communion every Sunday; who then worshipped briefly with the Methodists in the USA--again, worship service with communion every Sunday; and then joined the Episcopalians in the USA--in my parish, two services every Sunday, one at 8 am for early birds and one with more singing at 10:00, but both communion services incorporating the communion in the service.
In other words, even though I switched between denominations, the structure of the Sunday service was always the same, with its recognizable parts of the Liturgy of the Word and then the Communion, and of course many prayers overlapping or echoing each other between denominations. So I felt pretty much at home liturgically in all.
How confusing then to find oneself in some Anglican churches at what I thought was to be a Eucharist, only to find the Communion was tacked on at the end after half the congregation had gone, as a sort of afterthought. Or where you have to keep track of which Sunday it is--first, second, or whatever--to know whether there will be communion or not.
I had no idea of the variety and different possibilities.
I would say, while knowing nothing of the Parish Communion Movement, that--as someone says upthread--it has "worked" in that the main Sunday service being a Communion service every week has become much more common. But it doesn't yet seem to be the norm,as I am belatedly discovering!
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
Here there is Matins once a month - and a service I would usually try to avoid.
However, I got the Sunday wrong today and it was...Matins.
I have to admit that there was a sizeable congregation, and I noticed a number of people there one of whom I knew to be Buddhist, and two others Quakers.
It does seem that there is an argument that there should be a non-communion service on offer for those (as in this village) who are Christian in name, are well meaning to the Church, but who aren't that committed. For example, they wouldn't dream of joining any group, and would probably shudder at being considered religious .
A while ago in a different Post, there was a discussion about 'Constantinian Christians', the Church and State variety, often (but by no means exclusively), ex-members of the Armed Forces who seem to have dropped off in recent years. I remember the posts to have been disparaging. But might the Parish Communion movement (for whatever good theological reasons) have alienated them? They will/would never be 'converted' to weekly communicants, or in some cases communicants of any kind, but would just stop going.
I hesitate to quote such an authority, but I beleive George Carey once said something similar?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
If Mattins is the only service on offer, especially on the Feast of Pentecost, something is wrong. But otherwise you have a point.
Sung Mattins has almost disappeared from the schedules of parish churches and most cathedrals. However, one cathedral I know maintains Sung Mattins (at something like 10.00) which is followed by the Eucharist at 11.00. The Eucharist is definitely the 'main service' and attracts the larger congregation, but there is a sizeable crowd for Mattins. The Dean explained to me that it is largely made up of retired people, many of them from the armed forces or other professions, who think deeply and enjoy listening to sermons which challenge them to think more. Maybe many of them are not conventional Christians; certainly they are not sacramentally inclined.
I've always shied away from any service that appears to rival or supplant the Eucharist, and such worship would not be to my taste. Not every parish church has a significant number of people like the above; few have the resources or numbers to support an additional service. But it is too easy to dismiss Mattins-goers (or those who prefer more informal 'services of the Word') as superficial or not really committed to the worship of the Church. While I am convinced that the Sunday mass should be at the heart of all we do as a Christian community, we ought to be aware of such people, whether we see them as 'fringe members', 'seekers' or just interested pagans.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Indeed. Sebby might think that they're not likely to ever be "converted" to regular communicants, but I think they're the most likely mission field you've got ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
I agree with all that. There was actually an 8.00 am Eucharist.
It's probably the role of the CofE to mop up the unconventional, the not-so-committed, and so on. There were a sizeable group there this morning who like the language of the BCP and Sung Mattins, but who aren't really much into theology, or believe that much to be honest. I suspect that were Michael Foot to have lived here, he would have been a regular at such a service for aesthetical, language, and historical reasons and for 'space'. They are more likely to say 'Whitsunday' rather than 'Pentecost'.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Indeed.
Today was definitely WHITSUNDAY in our parish.
The usual crowd (c15) were at the said 8am BCP communion service.
Sung Matins was the main service: good congregation (52 adults, 7 children) plus full choir (19) plus self and PP. (There was also a baptism at 11.30)
We have a fair sprinkling of ex-military and they definitely prefer Matins. If they come to any communion service it is going to be the said 8am, never the sung except at Christmas.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Not at all a bad turn-out for Sung Mattins - but how does the number compare with your Parish Communion service?
We offer BCP Mattins every Sunday* at 930am (the Parish Mass following at 1030am), but the congregation rarely numbers more than half-a-dozen (mostly The Staff). We advertise it on our own websites and on the Prayer Book Society website, but have never AFAIK had any BCP-seeking visitors......
*even the Cathedral sometimes does away with its usual Sunday 945am Choral Mattins e.g. on Palm Sunday or Remembrance Sunday!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
St Giles-in-the-Fields has now ditched its weekly choral Matins owing to declining numbers and was one of the last London parishes - excluding the Cathedrals and Royal Chapels - to do so. There are just half a dozen that alternate Choral Matins and Choral Eucharist. The Eucharist is, without doubt the main morning service. Many of the Open Evangelical churches offer a 9am Communion with hymns (and sometimes sung mass parts ) that are growing in popularity.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I am a bit of a dinosaur churchmanship-wise. I rather like to get up about 7.45am on a Sunday scrape into the early celebration at 8.29:59, go home have a fry-up and go back for Matins at 11am. My wife prefers a mid-morning Sung Eucharist.
I am also tolerant of the old-fashioned trick of cutting MP a bt short and going into the BCP Communion service. I prefer it to the Slow Mass/Parish Communion set up which can get a bit chaotic if folks are not paing attention.
PD
[ 20. May 2013, 01:33: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
PD, I would actually be very happy with that (as long as I get a Choral Evensong in the evening) but alas, I can't fast before receiving Communion anyway due to needing to take medication in the morning with food. So quite happy with my current mid-morning Sung Eucharist (my church does not have Evensong).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Meds in the morning is something the Good Lord understands. H takes what we can do, and by His grace turns it into so much more. I am constantly humbled by how much more merciful He is towards us than we are towards ourselves!
Anyway...
I concur about Evensong, and I am bit irritated that I cannot quite put into words what it is I get out of the Sung Office. I guess it might be my inner monk trying to get out - though I suspect that my inner monk is a rather rowdy Culdee rather than a nice tidy Benedictine!
I guess that in many respects my spirituality finds the modern rush a bit of a pain. I do not suppose anyone these days would much care for Sung Matins followed by a Sung Communion, but to me a couple of hours worshipping God is time well spent. It then seems natural to have a leisurely lunch with some good conversation, and go back for Evensong, but everything seems to militate against that these days.
I guess my spirituality is more Dutch Oven than Microwave.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Bishop's Finger
Not at all a bad turn-out for Sung Mattins - but how does the number compare with your Parish Communion service?
That's about average for a parish communion - Family Communion is usually higher because on the other Sundays the children (and some parents, plus helpers) are involved with Sunday School.
Bearing in mind the village has only 620 households I reckon our numbers are pretty good, even allowing for a fair sprinkling of 'refugees' from nearby parishes; of course, the fact that we have a local CofE secondary school does skew the numbers a bit ...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Meds in the morning is something the Good Lord understands. H takes what we can do, and by His grace turns it into so much more. I am constantly humbled by how much more merciful He is towards us than we are towards ourselves!
Anyway...
I concur about Evensong, and I am bit irritated that I cannot quite put into words what it is I get out of the Sung Office. I guess it might be my inner monk trying to get out - though I suspect that my inner monk is a rather rowdy Culdee rather than a nice tidy Benedictine!
I guess that in many respects my spirituality finds the modern rush a bit of a pain. I do not suppose anyone these days would much care for Sung Matins followed by a Sung Communion, but to me a couple of hours worshipping God is time well spent. It then seems natural to have a leisurely lunch with some good conversation, and go back for Evensong, but everything seems to militate against that these days.
I guess my spirituality is more Dutch Oven than Microwave.
PD
St Mary Abbott attempt a (fairly successful) combination of Choral Matins followed by Choral Eucharist once a month where the Matins acts as the service of the word and then picks up with the peace and Eucharistic Prayer.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I guess my spirituality is more Dutch Oven than Microwave.
PD
You mean you fart and then force everyone under the duvet with you?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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