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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God is gone up!
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Is there any particular ceremonial for snuffing the Paschal Candle? And, what if Ascension is at least partly celebrated on the Sunday following? Should the Paschal candle just be absent? We'll be using the readings for 7th Sunday of Easter. I imagine some mention will be made of Ascension.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
In the pre-Vatican 2 rite, the paschal candle was put out after the gospel on Ascension Day. There was no provision for moving the feast to the Sunday.
The Vatican 2 provisions stress the unity of the fifty days of Eastertide from Easter to Pentecost inclusive, so the paschal candle remains in a prominent position throughout that time and is lit at major services.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Why in a ruined castle?
There's a platform built on top of what would have been the keep which the highest place for miles and a nice staging post for a modest meeting. It's commonly used for plays and performances. A little on-the-nose for Ascension, but still.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Is there any particular ceremonial for snuffing the Paschal Candle? And, what if Ascension is at least partly celebrated on the Sunday following? Should the Paschal candle just be absent? We'll be using the readings for 7th Sunday of Easter. I imagine some mention will be made of Ascension.
You need a small child to watch carefully as the Paschal candle is snuffed. As the wisp of smoke arises from the snuffed wick, said child shall proclaim, "There he goes!"
Which apparently happened somewhere.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've looked up the C of E Times and Seasons suggestion for Ascension Day. There is no mention of putting out the paschal candle (nor does the C of E allow moving the feast to Easter 7 as far as I remember).
It does have two special features: one which leo mentioned was including a reading from Acts in the dismissal. I can see the sense of that.
The other is including in the opening section the Acts reading describing the Ascension itself. I have experienced this. Has anyone else?
I don't see the point of it at all, myself.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Some others keep the candle lighted until Pentecost.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Not just 'some', CC. The majority of the western church.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Some others keep the candle lighted until Pentecost.
Unfortunate, I think-- and if the intent is to magnify Pentecost, counterproductive. As is "celebrating" Ascension Day only on Sunday. These liturgists' sense of psychology and drama seems to have deserted them. Our beloved Lord and Savior has disappeared. What's to celebrate?
What we miss then is the significance of Ascensiontide as a time of preparation for the third very important feast of the church. We prepare for Christmas with Advent, and for Easter with Lent. During Ascensiontide we use white, yet it's not all trumpets and triumphalism. On the Sunday (and the other days) in Ascensiontide, isn't it liturgically and pastorally sound to share the ambivalence (to say the least) of the disciples, in an atmosphere of wistfulness and wondering what will happen next?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Father did remember to say 'Pray, my brothers, that my sacrifice etc.').
Well, if one is going to use gender-nonspecific language, one ought to use it regardless of the gender of those present.
'Brethren' was fine over the years to signify 'men and women.' Certainly 'sisters and brothers' or 'brothers and sisters' is apposite when it appears only males are present. Except perhaps in a monastic setting.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I try to say what I mean and mean what I say, which means that if I'm referring to men and women I'll either use both genders or a neutral term, but if it's just men I'm talking about or just women, I'll just use one.
At the seminary, we often have an all-made crowd for Mass, so "Pray, brothers," if there are women "pray, my brothers and sisters." What I'm always impressed by is when the presider notices a sole woman and says "pray, my brothers and sister."
Hart, the whole point of gender neutral language is to be—well—neutral about gender in our language.
We used to do this by saying the words "men", "he", and "brethren" to signify "humans", "he or she," and "brothers and sisters." Frankly I preferred the old style to these awkward innovating circumlocutions, but that's not the world we now live in.
So, to be gender neutral in our language is to take no grammatical notice of gender, unless it matters to the sense of what we say.
When the presider turns to face the people and bids them with the words, "Pray brothers and sisters...," the assortment of genders in the assembly does not matter to what he means. Whether none, one, half, or, indeed, all of the assembly are women matters not one whit.
What he means is: "Pray all ya'll," "Pray you lot," or—to use an Afanasievian turn of phrase—"Pray fellow concelebrants that this my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty."
When the celebrant at Bishop's Fingers place notices that the assembly is all male or when the celebrant with whose sharp eye you are so impressed is paying attention to the gender of those in the assembly he is not fully focused on the impending Awesome Mysteries, but is acting like a 19th century man who has noticed...a woman!
I've taken as my example the Orate Fratres, but it could be equally the priest's Confiteor in the prayers at the foot of the altar, or any other place where one's mind ought to be on God and not on the random dangly bits.
As awkward as the modern grammatical accommodation is, it remains a matter of grammar and not of meaning.
[ 12. May 2013, 00:20: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Back in the day, when I was playing the organ on a regular basis, I used to improvise a voluntary on "Up, Up, and Away!" for the Ascension.
I confess to some theological perturbations about where Jesus went after he disappeared into the clouds. Another dimension?
These days, I'd probably improvise something on "Rocket Man" instead.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
I confess to some theological perturbations about where Jesus went after he disappeared into the clouds. Another dimension?
I made an argument (probably at too-great length) in a bible study one year that drew heavily on the scene in Stranger in a Strange Land where they arrange a couple of cameras at right angles to each other as Mike makes something vanish. It appears to recede from each camera.
I'd read Flatland by the time I read the scene so I was pretty excited that I knew exactly what was going on.
The argument didn't impress my fellow parishioners at all. I don't think they were as entranced by dimensional speculation as I am.
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The most ancient sacramentaries that survive envision the Easter season as extending through Whitsuntide. That is why the extra alleluias, Vidi Aquam, Easter communion obligation, Regina Caeli, etc. have always gone through Pentecost. The presence of the Vigil of Pentecost--a lengthy rite that followed essentially the same program as the Easter Vigil, with the blessing of the font, baptism, etc.--aligns it as part of the Easter cycle. (The Holy Week reforms of the 1950s removed most of that Vigil's special ceremony.)
During the Middle Ages Ascension grew into greater prominence, and with it the snuffing of the paschal candle after the gospel. That is a powerful symbol to give up, I must admit. Ascension began to be seen as its own liturgical season, however brief. This framework is the one with which what many here grew up, myself included.
The reforms of the 1960s and 1970s sought to simplify the kalendar, inter alia, and re-established the Easter-Pentecost connection. An unfortunate side-effect of this is a downplaying of Ascension in some places. But Eastertide has three distinct phases: 1) the octave, which displaces all other feasts, major and minor, 2) the main body of the season, and 3) Ascensiontide, during which the novena in preparation for Pentecost is prayed.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
OK, TLA, I'm now going to have to disagree on two points.
Firstly, linguistic: who's in and who's left out of our vocatives carries pragmatic weight; it defines who the speaker takes as their audience. Secondly, I think attentiveness to the assembly one is leading in prayer in all their particularity (gender included) is an important part of presiding, indeed of reverence: to ignore the body of Christ present in the gathered assembly in the name of concentrating properly on some other manner of Christ's presence is blinkered.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not just 'some', CC. The majority of the western church.
I was being ironic...
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
And rather comprehensive photo gallery is here.[/URL]
The bishop appears to have changed clothing twice in the course of the service. Why didn't he wear a chasuble throughout?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
And rather comprehensive photo gallery is here.[/URL]
The bishop appears to have changed clothing twice in the course of the service. Why didn't he wear a chasuble throughout?
Good question. Our parish use has the celebrant wear the following:
- Entrance through Gospel Proclamation: Cope
- Sermon, if preaching: Cope off (so amice, alb, cincture, stole) - Cope stays on during sermon if someone else preaches
- Offertory through Ablutions: Chasuble
- Postcommunion Prayer to the End: Cope
Bishops tend to find it easiest to go with our parish use, as that's what everyone else in the sanctuary crowd will be doing. Any exceptions the bishop has to any of this would be honored, of course. The bishop kept his cope on to preach. A very Anglo-Catholic visiting bishop (+Keith Quincy at the time) kept cope, mitre, gloves, ring over glove, slippers, and crozier throughout sermon.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
A very Anglo-Catholic visiting bishop (+Keith Quincy at the time) kept cope, mitre, gloves, ring over glove, slippers, and crozier throughout sermon.
This is even more delightful when one knows what a normal, down-to-earth guy that +Keith was. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Some others keep the candle lighted until Pentecost.
Unfortunate, I think-- and if the intent is to magnify Pentecost, counterproductive. As is "celebrating" Ascension Day only on Sunday. These liturgists' sense of psychology and drama seems to have deserted them. Our beloved Lord and Savior has disappeared. What's to celebrate?
What we miss then is the significance of Ascensiontide as a time of preparation for the third very important feast of the church. We prepare for Christmas with Advent, and for Easter with Lent. During Ascensiontide we use white, yet it's not all trumpets and triumphalism. On the Sunday (and the other days) in Ascensiontide, isn't it liturgically and pastorally sound to share the ambivalence (to say the least) of the disciples, in an atmosphere of wistfulness and wondering what will happen next?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Even more so with Holy Saturday, one of the most meaningful days of the year, and the most ignored.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I've been around Eccles enough to know that I can safely say here that it really grinds my gears when, at a church celebrating the Seventh Sunday of Easter, the Ascension preface is not used. I have been known to change the page in the altar book before the liturgy and to put ample post-its indicating the Ascension preface. (I'll even admit to paperclipping the Easter page shut.) Even if we're skipping Ascension altogether, which unfortunately happens all too often in my circles, a little vestige of it is not too much to ask.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
olaf,
That would frustrate the Banana [pudding out of me too! However, it may gladden your heart to know that I usually regard the Sunday after Ascension as my opportunity to redeem myself for messing up the Proper Preface on Ascension Day itself! It and one other major feast (Christmas, methinks) have a slight variant in the chant that throws me every time. It also has the net benefit that I tend to rehearse the Whitsunday PP like crazy. That for Trinity Sunday is not a problem as I sing it about 27 times every year!
Cheers,
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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