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Source: (consider it) Thread: Could Someone Explain Common Worship to Me?
stonespring
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I am not Anglican and do not live in England, but I am a Liturgy freak and this stuff keeps me up at night! Could someone explain what the most commonly used options are for the Eucharist in Common Worship, including which general forms (rites?) for the service are used most often by which type of congregation, and which Eucharistic Prayers? Also, which options are used most often by Aff Caths, Trad Caths, Open Evos, and Con Evos? I am trying to get a sense of how a "typical" (if such a thing exists) C of E Eucharist service using CW is different from a typical Episcopal Church service using the 1979 BCP.
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Pomona
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Just a quick question then [Biased]

I can't answer in terms of statistics, but my church is AffCath and uses CW Order I, Eucharistic prayer B. A previous conservative evangelical church of mine used CW Order I, Eucharistic prayer H. I don't think I've ever encountered an Order II service.

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PD
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Most parishes of Central and Catholic Churchmanships will use some form of CW Order 1 in modern language for the main Sunday Eucharist. My home parish, which was Sunnyside of Central and has drift AffCath under the present incumbant. They tend to use Prayers A, B, C, E and G most often, and occasionally uses D and F, and only ever used H by accident. However, some out-and-out Trad. Catholic shacks will use the Roman Rite.

I find Evangelical parishes tend to use the A Service of the Word format more than Central Churchmanship parishes - say twice a month as opposed to one a month. When they do the Eucharist they are far more likely to use Prayer H than Central or Catholic leaning Churches.

Order Two in Trad Language tends to be a 1662 substitute for the early Sunday, or midweek, celebration in Central Churchmanship parishes. Order Two in modern language would tend to be the preserve of a few very Con. Evo. places.

Order One in Traditional Language seems to be the preserve of a certain type of High Church parish - usually ones with good music programme and a well established repetoire of favourite settings that favours Trad. Lang..

1662 Evensong hangs on in a lot of places that still have an evening service, though it gets rare the closer to the two ends you get in Churchmanship terms. 1662 Matins is getting to be a bit of a rare bird outside of cathedrals, and if I am offered that option I always take it as I fear I may never see it again!

Hope this helps,
PD

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I am not Anglican and do not live in England, but I am a Liturgy freak and this stuff keeps me up at night!

This may be a little frivolous for the august portals of Eccles, but therapy and/or surgery may be easier than understanding the mysteries of Common Worship.

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Enoch
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Stonespring, it is a mistake to assume Eucharistic prayers must go with churchpersonship. A lot of churches use different ones in different seasons.

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MosesTT
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Having had a quick look at the prayer book used in the Church in Wales - in the explanatory notes it says which prayer is more suitable for what congregation, the criteria for what a congregation is ranges from age to "churchpersonship"...

Here's my spanner into the works: yes there is aright way to liturgically do things and it is great to know all this BUT does it matter?

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Thurible
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We use Prayer C. Only Prayer C. Tractarian with ritualist influences.

At a previous shack, of a similar (if more V2 tradition - floppy chasubles, central altar, etc.) bent, there was more variety. It was either one of the Missal Prayers or B or G and possibly A.

Thurible

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Kayarecee
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From another confused non-English non-Anglican, another question about CW...

There's been a lot of references to Order One and Order Two, in different flavors of language, but I don't know that anyone's ever clarified what those Orders are.

My understanding, gleaned from context, is that Order One is a rite shaped more-or-less like the "Western Rite" shared by Rome and many liturgical denominations who aren't Rome, including the US Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, while Order Two is a rite shaped similarly, although not identically, to the 1622 rite, and that both of these are available in "traditional" and "modern" language.

Do I have that correct, or did I get the Orders backward? And is it just the Eucharistic part that gets that treatment, or are the Offices and pastoral services and whatnot also done that way?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Here. http://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/texts.aspx

Fill yer boots.

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Angloid
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There are a lot of scare stories about how there are so many options that it's not actually 'Common' Worship. In practice, most Cof E eucharists - irrespective of churchpersonship - follow the same structure (i.e. CW order 1, and usually modern language). There is more convergence between 'high' and 'low' than there ever was in the days of English Missal vs. BCP Mattins.

The major difference is between the churches with an overtly 'family-friendly' eucharist and those that are more formal. Probably the former are more likely to be evangelical, but not exclusively, and will often use eucharistic prayers D or H. These are the two prayers less common in more traditional churches, not I suspect because of their theology but because of their odd format.

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venbede
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The reason CW can seem so complicated * is because it reflects the variety in the styles and details of C of E worship and be responsive to the experience of worshipping communities.

* It is no more complicated than many technical manuals. You would expect an aircraft pilot to know the contents of the manual for his plane. Why is it unreasonable to expect someone responsible for worship to be familiar with CW?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
* It is no more complicated than many technical manuals. You would expect an aircraft pilot to know the contents of the manual for his plane. Why is it unreasonable to expect someone responsible for worship to be familiar with CW?

Agreed, and I have similar thoughts in another online forum wherein I occasionally have to cite a page number in the BCP 1979 for a U.S. Episcopal priest (known to no one here) who is unaware of a basic rubric or prayer.
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FCB

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So this thread sent (non-English, non-Anglican) me scurrying to look at CW and on p. 335 I found this extremely curious rubric:
quote:
In Order Two, but not in Order Two in Contemporary Language, the breaking of the bread may be deferred until the Agnus Dei.
Why would an option regarding structure be dependent on the linguistic idiom? It would be like having a rubric in the Novus Ordo saying that the kiss of piece could be moved to before the Preparation of the Gifts when Mass was celebrated in Latin, but not when it was celebrated in English.

Thoughts?

[ 16. May 2013, 14:05: Message edited by: FCB ]

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Thurible
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If it's in contemporary English, you can't pretend to the punters that it's the BCP. If it were the BCP, they'd expect the breaking to be during the Canon.

Thurible

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FCB

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
If it's in contemporary English, you can't pretend to the punters that it's the BCP. If it were the BCP, they'd expect the breaking to be during the Canon.

Maybe I'm just not following, but if that were the reason, wouldn't the rubric be the opposite of what it is (i.e. you could move the fraction when it was in contemporary language, but not in traditional)?

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Thurible
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You're right; I misread it. Apologies. (I was guessing anyhow!)

Thurible

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Kayarecee:
From another confused non-English non-Anglican, another question about CW...

There's been a lot of references to Order One and Order Two, in different flavors of language, but I don't know that anyone's ever clarified what those Orders are.

My understanding, gleaned from context, is that Order One is a rite shaped more-or-less like the "Western Rite" shared by Rome and many liturgical denominations who aren't Rome, including the US Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, while Order Two is a rite shaped similarly, although not identically, to the 1622 rite, and that both of these are available in "traditional" and "modern" language.

Do I have that correct, or did I get the Orders backward? And is it just the Eucharistic part that gets that treatment, or are the Offices and pastoral services and whatnot also done that way?

No, you are absolutely correct.

As to the offices, it's a bit complicated. Traditional-minded protestants will use the BCP offices; extreme Anglo-Catholics will use the Roman Breviary; moderate Anglo-Catholics will use the CW provision. In my relatively limited experience of Evangelical churches, I have never come across regular prayer of the office.

Ultimately, the Church of England provides A Service of the Word. It's quite hard to design a service that isn't permitted by this provision.

Marriage and funeral rites exist in three forms: the BCP forms, the Common Worship forms, and the "Series One" forms, which are those proposed and rejected in 1928 and authorised as the first stage of the series of rites that led to the ASB and ultimately to Common Worship. The marriage service is particularly popular: it was the one used for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's wedding.

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stonespring
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Thanks for all the input so far - very interesting and much appreciated.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
In my relatively limited experience of Evangelical churches, I have never come across regular prayer of the office.

It happens. Frequently. Whether it is the norm I can't say, but I'm sure clergy in training are told it is, and of the canonical obligation.

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venbede
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Order 2 is also used by Anglo Catholics who like the olde world language of the BCP, but not its protestant tendencies.

I know a church which used Order 2 with a full Tridentine setting (incense, Eastward facing, etc.) The order of the elements of the mass are the same as Order 1 (with the pax before the Eucharistic Prayer.)

And they have BCP Evensong with Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

I'm afraid that language is often more of an issue in the C of E than content.

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Thurible
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St George's, Leeds, have daily morning prayer, based on CW, even if they call it Morning Prayers, so that it doesn't sound as if they're obeying the canons!

Thurible

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Order 2 is also used by Anglo Catholics who like the olde world language of the BCP, but not its protestant tendencies.

Do you mean Order 1 in trad language?

Thurible

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Order 2 is also used by Anglo Catholics who like the olde world language of the BCP, but not its protestant tendencies.

Do you mean Order 1 in trad language?

Thurible

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venbede
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You are quite right, thurible. They are using Order 1 in "trad" language.

I do try not to be obsessed with liturgy, honestly, so it looks like I'm succeeding. I was confused because the Eucharistic Prayer used is the one nearest to BCP "interim" rite.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
St George's, Leeds, have daily morning prayer, based on CW, even if they call it Morning Prayers, so that it doesn't sound as if they're obeying the canons!

Thurible

So the haven't changed from when I lived round the corner from there.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
If it's in contemporary English, you can't pretend to the punters that it's the BCP. If it were the BCP, they'd expect the breaking to be during the Canon.

Thurible

Careful. I got called to Hell some time back for using 'punters' - whoever it was said it was demeaning to compare worshippers to gamblers.

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Thurible
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I've never been called to Hell. Hmm. Punters.

Thurible

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
In my relatively limited experience of Evangelical churches, I have never come across regular prayer of the office.

It happens. Frequently. Whether it is the norm I can't say, but I'm sure clergy in training are told it is, and of the canonical obligation.
Yes, my post was ambiguous. I meant that I didn't know what was typical, rather than that I thought not doing it was typical.

(edited to finish the post accidentally submitted)

[ 16. May 2013, 16:34: Message edited by: Basilica ]

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L'organist
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Our PP does stick to the Canon (C24 (1)) but is something of a rarity these days IME.

We've been fortunate in having wardens who live very close to the church for the past few years and they, and a couple of others, try to ensure that at least one other person is always in church to say the offices with him.

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Our PP does stick to the Canon (C24 (1)) but is something of a rarity these days IME.

We've been fortunate in having wardens who live very close to the church for the past few years and they, and a couple of others, try to ensure that at least one other person is always in church to say the offices with him.

Hi L'Organist,

Could you explain what you meant by the Canon (C24 (1))?

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
If it's in contemporary English, you can't pretend to the punters that it's the BCP. If it were the BCP, they'd expect the breaking to be during the Canon.

Maybe I'm just not following, but if that were the reason, wouldn't the rubric be the opposite of what it is (i.e. you could move the fraction when it was in contemporary language, but not in traditional)?
Order Two in Traditional Language covers the so-called 'Interim Rite' which fogeys of various ages - self included - celebrate when confronted with the 1662 in a fairly High Church context. What usually happens is that the Summary of the Law and/or the ninefold Kyrie is substituted for the Decalogue, and the Prayer of Oblation is moved to follow that of Consecration. The more Missally places will usually expect the celebrant to then follow the oblation with the Lord's Prayer, then the Pax and Fraction and finally the Agnus Dei before Communion.

The only folks likely to use Order Two in modern language are Evangelicals anyway. Anyone from Low side of central upwards is far more likely (read almost certain) to use Order One for a modern language service. Therefore it is unnecessary to make provision for the fraction to be moved to its ancient place.

As far as I can recollect, the only place I have ever celebrated the old BCP rite straight was in Ireland when the 1926 BCP was still in effect. The Evangelicals on the right hand island tend to get a bit bent out of shape if you follow 1662 BCP as written as they do not appreciate the exhortations. Some also get a bit cranky about the Bread and Wine being left on the Table during the Prayer of Oblation. [brick wall]
PD

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Hi L'Organist,

Could you explain what you meant by the Canon (C24 (1))?

C 24 Of priests having a cure of souls

1. Every priest having a cure of souls shall provide that, in the absence of reasonable hindrance, Morning and Evening Prayer daily and on appointed days the Litany shall be said in the church, or one of the churches, of which he is the minister.

From The Canons of the Church of England

[ 17. May 2013, 01:33: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Zacchaeus
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Well ours does say the offices - but seeing as there are more churches than clergy and they do not live near any of the churches. The daily office tends to be where the clergy are rather than in church.

The idea of it being said in church - is only possible in a one vicar one church model.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

The idea of it being said in church - is only possible in a one vicar one church model.

How so? In the case where you have one priest and two or three churches, the requirement is clearly that the priest must ensure that Morning and Evening Prayer are said in one of his churches each day. That's explicitly in the text.

I don't know exactly how to apply that to a team ministry. In a team ministry, the cure of souls is shared by all the team vicars, so I would guess that the team are jointly and severally required to ensure that the offices are said in one of the team's churches. I don't think a priest saying the office in his house can qualify.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

The idea of it being said in church - is only possible in a one vicar one church model.

You mean lay people don't want to say the offices? It's quite possible for a rota to be set up so that every church is prayed in regularly.

I'd never read the canon thoroughly before and always assumed it was just an obligation on the clergy to say the offices. It clearly means more than that: it's an obligation on the clergy to ensure that the offices are said publicly. That might not always be practical, or even a useful pastoral strategy, these days; but the principle is there and it would ensure that church buildings are used for their proper purpose irrespective of the presence or availability of clergy.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
You mean lay people don't want to say the offices? It's quite possible for a rota to be set up so that every church is prayed in regularly.

Ours are led mostly by lay officiants and a nun. Do try to recruit enough officiants that those serving don't feel like they've committed for the rest of their lives (unless one wants to). We officiants at our parish have been keeping the Office said daily for years now. Anyone want to come and help? I pray for new officiants regularly.
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PD
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One of the small local parishes was a three church group, and the Rector would say the Offices in the church nearest the Rectory. I seem to think the acustomed hours were 10am and 5pm.

My home parish maintained a 9.15am/4.30pm schedule for years, though in earlier times 7.30am/5.30pm, 10am/5.30pm and 10am and 7pm had been the accustomed times. The 9.15am/4.30pm routine was not wholly unconnected with the fact that in his early days the Vicar had had kids to deposit and collect from a School on the other side of town.

PD

[ 18. May 2013, 04:14: Message edited by: PD ]

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

The idea of it being said in church - is only possible in a one vicar one church model.

You mean lay people don't want to say the offices? It's quite possible for a rota to be set up so that every church is prayed in regularly.

I'd never read the canon thoroughly before and always assumed it was just an obligation on the clergy to say the offices. It clearly means more than that: it's an obligation on the clergy to ensure that the offices are said publicly. That might not always be practical, or even a useful pastoral strategy, these days; but the principle is there and it would ensure that church buildings are used for their proper purpose irrespective of the presence or availability of clergy.

There is also a separate requirement in the Canons for the clergy (irrespective of having cure of souls) to say the Office daily: C26.1.

C24 only applies to those having a cure - so incumbents.

T

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