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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Prayers of anathema, censure or hatred
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've been reading a book, Christianity, The first 3000 years.
There is much to recommend it in terms of understanding history of the Latin west and Greek east, among many other things. The author discusses liturgies where God's hate and anathema is called down on various people, such as Origen. The references in this regard are mostly to Orthodox traditions and I suspected it was about things of old, maybe 500 or 1000 years ago - considering things like crusades and inquisitions. My question is directed at the anathema and hatred directed at other Christians in liturgy, knowing of Christian history toward the non-Christian mostly already. Can anyone clarify if there are any current liturgies which call down hatred on anyone? When were these given up? I think they must exist in both west and east. I tried several googlenet searches without luck.
(When formulating this question, I was not thinking of independent televangelists who may say and do all sorts of things independently, modernly and disconnected from a tradition of worship.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Don't know about formal liturgies but I was at a service (not in my own neck of the woods) within the last year where the incumbent used the sermon and - particularly - the intercessions at Evensong to have a go at a member of their flock. The friend I was with wrote to the Archdeacon about it but got a stock 'flock'off' response. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Given the parlous state of the Christian church in many parts of the world (especially the West), I very much hope that all such liturgies (if they ever existed) have been well and truly done away with.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
The old Roman Pontificale has an anathema rite in it and since Summorum Pontificum, technically it's still in use.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
The 1662 Book of Common Prayer (still the official prayer book of the Church of England) has a "Commination" or a "Denouncing of God's anger and judgement against sinners". It's pretty unsubtle stuff, with a lot of "cursed is he":
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/occasion/commination.html
This rite is clearly a penitential rite.
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
There might be some overlap here with a thread we had a while ago discussing what to do with the 'cursing' Psalms which might be an obvious component of services such as you describe... Everyone could agree that care was needed in their use, but not everyone supported doing away with them altogether - wonder of we will have the same range of responses here?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I can see the purpose of commination et al for a suitably saintly priest and congregation to reprove a devout but wayward brother. In the context of the average parish? Far too tempting to use them to have a go at the irritating git of an elder/churchwarden/curate/MU secretary.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
The 1662 Book of Common Prayer (still the official prayer book of the Church of England) has a "Commination" or a "Denouncing of God's anger and judgement against sinners". It's pretty unsubtle stuff, with a lot of "cursed is he":
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/occasion/commination.html
This rite is clearly a penitential rite.
The Commination is not a hateful liturgy nor does it call for Anathema on certain people. It is a majestic liturgical expression of God's righteous anger against sin, which is intended to stir up penitential feelings in the faithful and bring them closer to our Lord.
Christians are called to love one another, and the supreme liturgical book in all Christendom would not contain any hate. God even directed the Reformers to remove abuse of the Pope from the Litany.
[ 09. June 2013, 22:09: Message edited by: Indifferently ]
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I can see the purpose of commination et al for a suitably saintly priest and congregation to reprove a devout but wayward brother. In the context of the average parish? Far too tempting to use them to have a go at the irritating git of an elder/churchwarden/curate/MU secretary.
As amusing as it is for me to imagine raging against Beadle Bumble for acting like the self-righteous little shit that he is, I'm very sure the actual object of the Commination is considerably broader than just the odious Mr. Bumble, whether he be in the guise of elder, churchwarden, or curate.
Let's remember that the Commination was not something for the minister to haul out of the drawer when he was feeling tetchy toward one in his cure, but was rather meant to be read out on the first day of Lent, every Lent, until the primitive practice of public discipline of notorious sinners could be reinstated.
Here are the pertinent bits of Holy Writ, edited and arranged for your liturgical consideration. Please be sure to raise your hand when you are mentioned: quote:
Cursed is he that curseth his father or mother.
Cursed is he that removeth his neighbour's landmark.
Cursed is he that maketh the blind to go out of his way.
Cursed is he that perverteth the judgement of the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.
Cursed is he that smiteth his neighbour secretly.
Cursed is he that lieth with his neighbour's wife.
Cursed is he that taketh reward to slay the innocent.
Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, and taketh man for his defence, and in his heart goeth from the Lord.
Cursed are the unmerciful, fornicators, and adulterers, covetous persons, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards, and extortioners.
Are we all in? Everybody's hand up?
Thought so.
At the end of the unfashionable drone given to the Minister is this: quote:
Although we have sinned, yet have we an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins. For he was wounded for our offences, and smitten for our wickedness. Let us therefore return unto him, who is the merciful receiver of all true penitent sinners; assuring ourselves that he is ready to receive us, and most willing to pardon us, if we come unto him with faithful repentance; if we submit ourselves unto him, and from henceforth walk in his ways; if we will take his easy yoke, and light burden upon us, to follow him in lowliness, patience, and charity, and be ordered by the governance of his Holy Spirit; seeking always his glory, and serving him duly in our vocation with thanksgiving: This if we do, Christ will deliver us from the curse of the law, and from the extreme malediction which shall light upon them that shall be set on the left hand; and he will set us on his right hand, and give us the gracious benediction of his Father, commanding us to take possession of his glorious kingdom: Unto which he vouchsafe to bring us all, for his infinite mercy.
I feel better already. Don't you?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Meaculpa
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# 11821
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Posted
I suppose the Anglican Masses of Derogation at and Atonement for the ordination of women (NOT raising the issue here!) offered at the peak of debate/occurrence in the early days of this innovation in various ecclesiastical provinces would fall into the OP's category. I gather that similar Masses have been offered by Holy Church throughout history for a lack of faithfulness, for losing a Christian country to the Turk (in the parlance of the day), for the sin of abortion and so forth; and that these would implicitly and in fact often explicitly call anathema on various practices or behaviours. Anyone attended one recently?
Posts: 363 | From: York, ON | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meaculpa:
...losing a Christian country to the Turk (in the parlance of the day)...
We certainly hear of "hieromartyrs under the Bolshevik yoke" at Orthodox liturgies today. "Under the Ottoman yoke"? Not so much, in my experience.
However, remarks about the Turkish Patriarch are sure to elicit scowls from the Greeks.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
The Commination is not a hateful liturgy nor does it call for Anathema on certain people. It is a majestic liturgical expression of God's righteous anger against sin, which is intended to stir up penitential feelings in the faithful and bring them closer to our Lord.
Posted by Devil's Advocate this past February:
quote:
The last time I heard of the Commination service being used was by a vicar who read it from the pulpit one Sunday morning after one of the churchwardens had run of with his wife!
Strange how "God's righteous anger" is so often confused, in practice and in the mouths of fallible human beings, into "MY righteous anger."
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
All the blood has drained from my upraised hand and I have perverted the judgement of it.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
A few years ago Churches Together in Britain and Ireland put together their annual unity service based, allegedly, on a Middle Eastern Liturgy. It was described, with some justice, by Fr. Cosmo as 'A Commination Against George W. Bush'.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
If you're really suffering from Malediction Deficit Disorder, you can always read the Athanasian Creed.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Posted by Devil's Advocate this past February:
quote:
The last time I heard of the Commination service being used was by a vicar who read it from the pulpit one Sunday morning after one of the churchwardens had run of with his wife!
Strange how "God's righteous anger" is so often confused, in practice and in the mouths of fallible human beings, into "MY righteous anger."
In this particular case it seems more a happy (if that's the word) coincidence of God's righteous anger and the righteous anger of the wronged husband. Hard to fault either on this point.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Meaculpa
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# 11821
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Posted
The Holy Father chose to celebrate a Mass of Reparation (wearing violet vestments) during his memorable visit to Lampedusa yesterday.
Posts: 363 | From: York, ON | Registered: Sep 2006
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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
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Posted
I was at a course once, and at worship we had the usual 'light a candle for...' time. Most of us were content to pray for grandma's ingrowing toenail (recovery from). One of the course leaders lit a candle as a curse on the warmongers of Bosnia and the Balkans (it was some years ago).
It was shocking. But why not pray like that? If we beleive that something is so deeply evil, then should we not pray against it?
There are some pretty obvious dangers. But, in extreme situations, where people are committing genocide and other horrific acts, do we not have a responsibility to pray against something or someone?
Posts: 57 | From: Greater Manchester | Registered: Jul 2011
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
I understand the feeling of wanting to curse and damn when faced by what one feels is a great injustice or crime. I can understand doing this when talking and trying to listen to to God.
What I find difficult to imagine is "praying against" someone or something. How does a "prayer against" something or someone work? How is God expected to respond?
A "prayer against" seems inconsistent with the definition of prayer given by the Baltimore Cathecism, for example:
quote:
Question: What is prayer?
Answer: Prayer is the lifting up of our minds and hearts to God to adore Him, to thank Him for His benefits, to ask His forgiveness, and to beg of Him all the graces we need whether for soul or body.
In some circumstances, prayer like this can be difficult. Luther, after the death of his young daughter said that he and his wife were so saddened by the loss that they could not say a prayer of thanks without weeping. So he asked a friend, "You, please give thanks to God in our stead!"
He didn't invent a "prayer against," not even against the death of a young and much loved child.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
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Posted
Praying against may not be the best use of language. But, if we are happy to pray for the success of a new venture, maybe we should pray for the success of those trying to stop a particular evil? And what does our prayer require us do to stop this evil?
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
Posts: 57 | From: Greater Manchester | Registered: Jul 2011
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
But, if we are happy to pray for the success of a new venture, maybe we should pray for the success of those trying to stop a particular evil?
Thanks for clarifying, Trickydicky. That makes a big difference, imo anyway.
The slippery slope still worries me. (I'm not including your earlier post in that.) Jesus had some quite sharp things to say about those who misuse prayer, especially those who treat it as a platform to point out one's own moral superiority while decrying the sins of others.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
I'm surprised no mention has been made of
"From the Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormities" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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