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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sharing the peace felt like war
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Vade Mecum
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# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
Vade Mecum, there is a practice among priests, to take the wafer in their hand, touch their fingers into your palm, and, rather than releasing the wafer without touching your hand, close their hand over yours in a clasping motion squeezing your hand by the fingers with the wafer in-between. It is mostly done when receiving standing.
It is certainly not sanitary or a healthy practice. I do not find it endearing or comforting or whatever else I am supposed to find it.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Anathema sit.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
True Enoch there were probably other - more major - things but it can be a pretty minor thing that sets you off
I'm old enough to remember when the peace was first introduced - and you know what? Everybody hated it! Now if you tried to do without it World War 3 would probably break out...!
Why? Give it a try!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
True Enoch there were probably other - more major - things but it can be a pretty minor thing that sets you off
I'm old enough to remember when the peace was first introduced - and you know what? Everybody hated it! Now if you tried to do without it World War 3 would probably break out...!
Only because the extraverts have the loudest voices.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Do any of you visit France ? And if so how do you cope ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The introduction of the 'give the peace'thing was one of the final straws that completed my move to atheism from CofE.
There must have been a heck of a lot more to your conversion to atheism than that, SusanDoris. That seems a pretty thin straw to break the camel's back. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Yes I was puzzled by that. I'm not sure I can see why somebody wanting to shake hands with you proves God does not exist or even clinches something you've been suspecting for some time. As sequiturs go, it has a fairly high negative rating.
Meh, I've told people that I can't be RC because I hate holding hands during the Lords Prayer. Obviously that is not the only thing holding me back, but the unapologetic introvert in me enjoys the reaction I get.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do any of you visit France ? And if so how do you cope ?
Yes - and I do (arms length as always)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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lily pad
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# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do any of you visit France ? And if so how do you cope ?
Yes - and I do (arms length as always)
They don't grab you in a bear hug. In reality, you hardly touch the other person when doing the right/left kiss type of greeting. I'm not sure I would advocate for that at the Peace but if people had half the finesse that the French do when greeting, it would go a long way.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I have highly developed peace avoiding skills because due to the madness physical contact makes me so stressed out that I can become ill as a result of it. I sit as far from other people as I can and during the peace I kneel, curl up into the smallest ball I can and concentrate on wishing peace on other people and giving 'I'm happy for peace to be with you but don't touch me' vibes. There is one lady in the congregation who makes a habit of tapping me on the shoulder during the peace despite the fact I've asked her not to and explained why several times. That I find really offensive. Surely people can understand that although they might find it appropriate to hug and fondle with their promiscuous paxing, I find it horrible, disturbing and it literally causes me nightmares and panic attacks.
[Edited in the hope of gaining some vague coherence]
[ 19. June 2013, 17:12: Message edited by: chive ]
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
Doublethink - I've been to France. When I'm there, I do as the French do. . When in Rome ...
The charming and effusive European kiss on both cheeks is elegant, and not to me in the same category as a bear hug from a stranger during the Peace.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Pooks
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# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
There is one lady in the congregation who makes a habit of tapping me on the shoulder during the peace despite the fact I've asked her not to and explained why several times. That I find really offensive. Surely people can understand that although they might find it appropriate to hug and fondle with their promiscuous paxing, I find it horrible, disturbing and it literally causes me nightmares and panic attacks.
I remember being taught at some church-related course long ago that not everyone is comfortable with touching, so it is better to be mindful of this and always ask for permission before proceeding to give someone a hug (this goes for praying with someone as well). It's about respecting one another's wishes and preferences. I don't understand why this is not taught to everybody in churches as being a matter of love and respect for one another. Surely hugs and kisses are not the only way of expressing Christian love and peace to one another, sometimes not doing so can be just as valid an expression as well.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Spot on. I find shaking hands OK, but hugs should always be asked for first. I don't want to hug strangers in any case.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
I can remember a time before this custom was introduced. It's often awkward, can be uncomfortable and feel forced as people ignore you or lunge at you with outstretched hand: this is likely to be the only contact you have with them throughout the entire service, and at the end you then revert to politely not knowing each other, gather up your things and leave.
The whole thing feels quite artificial. It might feel more natural if you knew anyone in the congregation but mostly you don't. I regret to say it's one of the things that puts me off going. The handshake is enough, but hugging strangers in these circumstances would feel like false intimacy.
I was once faced with giving the peace via a handshake to a young man on my right who'd been vigorously biting his nails throughout the service, so his fingers were still wet with saliva, and an old man who'd been wiping his nose on the back of his hand. There is nothing you can do except beam warmly and plunge right in, reminding yourself it's only body fluids, you have them too, and making a mental note to wash your hands thoroughly when you get the chance.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Latex gloves might do the trick?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
At my church, we have a fairly small (around 50 people) and very close-knit congregation. The only person who tries to hug me apart from my friends from uni is our priest and I have no problem with being hugged by him - but I still rather dread sharing the peace because 50 people wanting to shake my hand still feels like a lot!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Maybe this is because I can't remember too many Other Times, but I thought the Peace had ancient roots—but people are talking about times before it was introduced? Forgive me my ignorance, but does anyone know when/why (in a philosophical sense, rather than a Googleable one) it was included in so many liturgies across so many traditions, to the point that I might be forgiven for thinking it was just part of how Things Are Done?
And might the fact that it is "new" contribute to so much awkwardness and uncertainty about how to approach it—might there be some hope for figuring out how to do it in, oh, another 250-odd years?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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Gextvedde
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# 11084
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Posted
So hang on a minute. Does all of this mean I can't try and grab someones arse during the peace?
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have a less severe form of what Chive has and on a good day I can cope with a hug. Even then if caught off guard I am likely to physically flinch. When I was bad I could go literally into fight or flight mode at the suggestion.
At one point I quite deliberately sort out ways of sharing the peace without touching so as to be able to be constructive and safe.
It was this that started first ever thread in Hell. Hell was governed by different rules in those days.
What I appreciated then was getting the idea that touch is negotiated. If someone ignores a no touch sign, then they are prioritising their desire for touch over your wishes. Yes that can be abusive, just as with-holding tough can also be, but both these are extreme. That is not to say that they do not occur, Chive's post indicates they do.
My policy these days is normally to clearly indicate that I want a hand shake and deliberately choose places that give me more personal space. The second gives me time to prepare if nothing else.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
a young man on my right . . . his fingers were still wet with saliva, and an old man who'd been wiping his nose on the back of his hand. . . it's only body fluids, you have them too, and making a mental note to wash your hands thoroughly when you get the chance.
If you have a scratch or cut on your finger, or if you momentarily forget and absent-mindedly wipe your eye, washing your hands will be too little, too late.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do any of you visit France ? And if so how do you cope ?
Just fine. I've also been to nude beaches. We neither need to be French nor nude to share the peace peaceably (nor both at once).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
a young man on my right . . . his fingers were still wet with saliva, and an old man who'd been wiping his nose on the back of his hand. . . it's only body fluids, you have them too, and making a mental note to wash your hands thoroughly when you get the chance.
If you have a scratch or cut on your finger, or if you momentarily forget and absent-mindedly wipe your eye, washing your hands will be too little, too late.
I regularly sit next to someone who pulls a little bottle of hand sanitizer out of her purse after the peace. She offers it to me every time, too, and I always wonder if sharing hand sanitizer is sanitary.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
We'll be gargling with Listerine next before sipping from the chalice, I imagine.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Maybe you should get your own? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
So hang on a minute. Does all of this mean I can't try and grab someones arse during the peace?
It's cool, as long as it is a sign of Christian love, between Christian brothers and sisters. If the person whose ass you grab feels uncomfortable, they should pull you aside into a private room and ask you to not do it again.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Apologies in previous post, that was not the "first ever hell thread" but "my first ever hell thread".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
I have really mixed feelings about all of this. I like a good tight hug with my close friends and relatives, but there is a man in my church who greets me (and others) with a hug and I find it discomforting. He only hugs women, which is a bit odd, although i do not believe there is anything sexual in it. I usually turn sideways, so he puts his arm around my shoulders and gives me a squeeze, but then he leaves his arm there, and sometimes strokes it up and down my arm absentmindedly. I am sure readers of this will suspect he is copping a feel, but honestly I think he is well intentioned and does't realise how it makes me feel, so I just put up with it
Maybe he should bear my possible feelings in mind and defer to them, but it is just as easy or hard for me to defer to his express intentions isn't it?
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
In all of this, there seems to be a problem that boils down to a poor understanding of the purpose of the Peace as a liturgical action. In fact, I'm a bit uncertain about it myself.
So, what is the point of the Peace?
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
IMaybe he should bear my possible feelings in mind and defer to them, but it is just as easy or hard for me to defer to his express intentions isn't it?
Actually as both Chive and Jengie have indicated this isn't always the case - and I'm adding my
experience to theirs. After I was raped the peace made attending church incrediby difficult.
It's easier at the church I go to now as it's smaller and I feel more comfortable with the people, partly because they are more aware of possible boundary issues.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I regularly sit next to someone who pulls a little bottle of hand sanitizer out of her purse after the peace. She offers it to me every time, too, and I always wonder if sharing hand sanitizer is sanitary.
Tangent alert
I visited a church recently where at the Eucharist, there were two hand washings before the consecration, a liturgical one with water and a ceremonial little towel, and then another one with a little bottle of medical squirt.
Theologically, which one is the 'real' one?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The whole thing feels quite artificial. It might feel more natural if you knew anyone in the congregation but mostly you don't. I regret to say it's one of the things that puts me off going. The handshake is enough, but hugging strangers in these circumstances would feel like false intimacy.
The whole point of the Peace, surely, is to demonstrate togetherness with all God's people (at least those gathered in that place at that time). If we restrict it to those whom we know personally, or worse, smile at some, shake hands with others and hug others, depending on how well we know them, it makes nonsense of the ceremony.
Of course it is symbolic, and therefore should not be any more effusive than necessary. If the congregation's style is simply to respond 'and also be with you' (or equivalent) to the priest's greeting, that's fine. Shaking hands is a common gesture that no-one surely can object to, even if they would rather not. But hugging, unless everybody is happy with it and knows each other well, should be a no-no.
I imagine that the priest in the OP lulled herself into a false impression, because of the retreat context, that it was an intimate congregation where hugging would be appropriate. No prophet doesn't say whether she hugged everyone but at least that would be consistent; to select one or two arbitrary victims would be quite wrong.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
He only hugs women, which is a bit odd, although i do not believe there is anything sexual in it. I usually turn sideways, so he puts his arm around my shoulders and gives me a squeeze, but then he leaves his arm there, and sometimes strokes it up and down my arm absentmindedly. I am sure readers of this will suspect he is copping a feel, but honestly I think he is well intentioned...
That's what one man at church was doing to me - "absentmindedly" stroking my arm. Then one day we were alone in a room and he - no question he crossed the line! But because everyone wrote off his usual behavior as "absentminded" and "well meant" no one believed me. Not a rape, but I don't go to that church anymore - and have since then have met several other women who don't go to that church because of him.
As to runny noses, coughing into hands, biting nails and wet fingers - the hand sanitizer bottle between the peace and receiving the bread sounds like a great idea. On various threads people insist "no one gets sick from other people's germs at church" but how do you know that when most diseases take more than an hour to develop symptoms and there's no reason to think church buildings are exempt from normal germ theory.
As to the peace being unfriendly to visitors - one church a friend took me to, everyone went all over the room greeting friends. I was left alone. Finally realized it wasn't going to end any time soon, went out, used the rest room, read the bulletin boards, saw that a few other people had left to fetch and sip a cup of coffee. When I wandered back in my friend stopped by briefly to say "did I tell you the peace here takes at least twenty minutes?"
A different woman must have been warned, she was sitting abandoned, knitting.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
the hand sanitizer bottle between the peace and receiving the bread sounds like a great idea.
How about little personal lavabo bowls in every pew? Much more liturgically correct.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
For me, the Peace equals a good time to take a potty break, or eminate my best 'Rosary Lady - I don't do that shit' vibes. However, I tend to go to BCP Communion Services because (a) I prefer the BCP and (b) it has the added bonus of no peace ceremony.
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
What a relief to read this thread and realize that there are so many others who have trouble with the over-effusive, over-huggy, over-long peace.
Some things I've noticed in the past 10 years or so (2 parishes):
-- when people start hugging in a parish -- and moving all around the church to do this -- the practice spreads, involving larger numbers of people and taking up more time and energy. This was a factor that led to my distancing myself from one parish and eventually becoming a member of another. Now it's starting in the new parish as well. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
-- when I reach out to shake hands, smiling and making eye contact, I find that some people go for the hug anyway. Perhaps they think I do not feel worthy of being hugged, so they have to try harder?
-- I know that there are those who think that the protracted, huggy peace is a wonderful, Christian thing to do. Perhaps they also think that the more of it they do, and the more enthusiastically, the more Christian they are? On the other hand, I have noticed that many people seem to seek out special friends, family, etc., for the hugging, ignoring others in the congregation they do not know (or like?). Better to be democratic and extend one's hand to everyone ... within reasonable distance, at least.
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-- Roger Scruton
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
In response to the why and when of the Peace: My understanding is that it's supposed to ritually demonstrate that, post-confession and absolution, and before the Eucharist, the assembled are reconciled and at peace with one another; that people have left their interpersonal frictions at the foot of the Cross and are prepared to receive Holy Communion together as one body. I suppose it's somewhat analogous to the Orthodox Lenten practice of actively asking forgiveness of each person in the church with whom one wronged or with whom one has had difficulties.
As far as the when -- I can't speak for the others here, but in my corner of Lutherland it began in the 70's during the heyday of the liturgical renewal movement. Before that time the "The peace of the Lord be with you always" and the congregational response (which I seem to remember was "And with thy Spirit"...everything old is new again) were purely verbal.
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Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In response to the why and when of the Peace: My understanding is that it's supposed to ritually demonstrate that, post-confession and absolution, and before the Eucharist, the assembled are reconciled and at peace with one another;
Aha, so we should be seeking out enemies and people we dislike, instead of family and friends to shake hands with. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In response to the why and when of the Peace: My understanding is that it's supposed to ritually demonstrate that, post-confession and absolution, and before the Eucharist, the assembled are reconciled and at peace with one another; that people have left their interpersonal frictions at the foot of the Cross and are prepared to receive Holy Communion together as one body.
This seems a very reasonable and worthy explanation. I wonder how many people actually think about the point of the ritual as they're doing it, though! There must be plenty who don't, otherwise there'd be none of that 'only greeting friends' silliness.
I think it goes to show how important it is to think about why we do all the rituals and activities in the practising of our faith, otherwise we're just like the newcomers in the (apparently fictional!) experiment with monkeys being taught not to reach for a banana.
As an aside regarding that monkey experiment, I liked the observation (made here) that 'an experiment whose goal is to point out how people will blindly believe what they are told is repeatedly referenced as fact without a proper source'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
At my church, we have a fairly small (around 50 people) and very close-knit congregation. The only person who tries to hug me apart from my friends from uni is our priest and I have no problem with being hugged by him - but I still rather dread sharing the peace because 50 people wanting to shake my hand still feels like a lot!
Imagine though that instead of 50 people queuing up to shake your hand, no one (or very few do so). Do you feel included or excluded - and what does that say about the eucharist that follows?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In response to the why and when of the Peace: My understanding is that it's supposed to ritually demonstrate that, post-confession and absolution, and before the Eucharist, the assembled are reconciled and at peace with one another; that people have left their interpersonal frictions at the foot of the Cross and are prepared to receive Holy Communion together as one body. I suppose it's somewhat analogous to the Orthodox Lenten practice of actively asking forgiveness of each person in the church with whom one wronged or with whom one has had difficulties.
I understand that but why wait until then to do it? Why not at the beginning of the worship or even before you meet together?
Surely the default for believers is to be at peace with one another. If there's something that breaks that peace, then it is best addressed as soon as possible and peace restored. The sign of peace ois given then - why repeat it?
As you rightly say, until recent years the standard response to "peace be with you" was a verbal one. The sign of peace was a 1st century form of greeting in a war torn environment. Arguably we're not in the same position today, such that giving a sign of the peace is a cultural irrelevance: it has no meaning or context.
I'd reiterate my belief that peace isn't soemthing you do, it's a condition you are. If you have to be told when to show it or be given a context to do so, I'm not convinced (personally) that reflects Christ's intentionality.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
At my church, we have a fairly small (around 50 people) and very close-knit congregation. The only person who tries to hug me apart from my friends from uni is our priest and I have no problem with being hugged by him - but I still rather dread sharing the peace because 50 people wanting to shake my hand still feels like a lot!
Imagine though that instead of 50 people queuing up to shake your hand, no one (or very few do so). Do you feel included or excluded - and what does that say about the eucharist that follows?
I would feel perfectly included and reading to receive the Eucharist - as others have said, a BCP service has no peace, so why would no peace at a CW service make a difference to the Eucharist? In any case, the priest has said 'peace be with you' and the congregation has responded with 'and also with you' presumably, which is peace enough for me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The sign of peace was a 1st century form of greeting in a war torn environment. Arguably we're not in the same position today,
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Surely the default for believers is to be at peace with one another. If there's something that breaks that peace, then it is best addressed as soon as possible and peace restored. The sign of peace ois given then - why repeat it?
...I'd reiterate my belief that peace isn't soemthing you do, it's a condition you are. If you have to be told when to show it or be given a context to do so, I'm not convinced (personally) that reflects Christ's intentionality.
Hear hear. Speaking as a Christian who's really unfamiliar with the Peace ritual, I find it odd and somewhat uncomfortable. I'm taking note of people's various strategies to avoid hugging strangers and similar physical contact that they find awkward!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]I would feel perfectly included and reading to receive the Eucharist - as others have said, a BCP service has no peace, so why would no peace at a CW service make a difference to the Eucharist? In any case, the priest has said 'peace be with you' and the congregation has responded with 'and also with you' presumably, which is peace enough for me.
Ok how about if 50 people queue up to shake your hand but ignore a visitor off the streets, sitting at the back, who has personal hygiene issues?
If there's no "peace" in the BCP service why is it used in CW? What's good enough for one is surely good enough for the other
[ 20. June 2013, 10:00: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The sign of peace was a 1st century form of greeting in a war torn environment. Arguably we're not in the same position today,
I can understand confused. Why "disappointed?"
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent alert
I visited a church recently where at the Eucharist, there were two hand washings before the consecration, a liturgical one with water and a ceremonial little towel, and then another one with a little bottle of medical squirt.
Theologically, which one is the 'real' one?
Slightly worried now that you might have been visiting one of our churches, as this is exactly what I do. I don't know which one is 'real', but I pray during both.
If I had the courage to ask it of our servers, I would have a bowl of warm water, soap, a proper towel and actually wash my hands, dispensing with the 'squirt' entirely, which is what +Michael Perham recommended when I was training.
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We have the Peace at our place in the RC position, to wit, just before Communion. Our organist knows that, after a minute or so, she is supposed to start playing the Agnus Dei, at which point all return to their places..... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Personally, I could do without exchanging the Peace, but, if I'm acting as Deacon, I do (just) have time to greet any newcomers/visitors, and this does seem to be appreciated. No hugs, though, no, indeed not!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
In all of this, there seems to be a problem that boils down to a poor understanding of the purpose of the Peace as a liturgical action. In fact, I'm a bit uncertain about it myself.
So, what is the point of the Peace?
It isn't mateyness amongst the congregation. It is the peace of THE LORD that is being passed on, not a sort of 'I wish you peace' wish from one person to the next.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If there's no "peace" in the BCP service why is it used in CW? What's good enough for one is surely good enough for the other
Cranmer cut out the peace because it had evolved into as superstition - people kissed something called a 'pax brede' - a sort of plate. They probably thought that the action conveyed some sort of good luck.
However, the kiss of peace is a biblical mandate which reflects the practice of the very early church. quote:
Greet one another with a holy kiss
Rom 16:16 Also 1 Cor 16:20, 2 Cor 13:2, 1 Thess 5:26, 1 Peter 5:14
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The introduction of the 'give the peace'thing was one of the final straws that completed my move to atheism from CofE.
There must have been a heck of a lot more to your conversion to atheism than that, SusanDoris. That seems a pretty thin straw to break the camel's back.
Yes I was puzzled by that. I'm not sure I can see why somebody wanting to shake hands with you proves God does not exist or even clinches something you've been suspecting for some time. As sequiturs go, it has a fairly high negative rating.
Meh, I've told people that I can't be RC because I hate holding hands during the Lords Prayer. Obviously that is not the only thing holding me back, but the unapologetic introvert in me enjoys the reaction I get.
I've never seen that at any French church.
I always associate holding hands during the lord's prayer as an evangelical practice and i refuse to do it.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Same here - though one or two of our people hold up their hands in the orans gesture whilst saying the Lord's Prayer. Nowt wrong with that, ISTM, but I thought the lifting up of the hands was the trad gesture in the Middle Ages at the elevation of the Host, no?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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