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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sharing the peace felt like war
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Cranmer cut out the peace because it had evolved into as superstition - people kissed something called a 'pax brede' - a sort of plate. They probably thought that the action conveyed some sort of good luck.
I've always rather liked the idea of the pax-brede. Kiss, wipe, pass on.
Just remember the "wipe" bit. And no tongues.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We have the Peace at our place in the RC position, to wit, just before Communion. Our organist knows that, after a minute or so, she is supposed to start playing the Agnus Dei, at which point all return to their places.....
Yes, we do that too. It's a dash back to the music stand. I've been known to 'wave' the peace to people.
I'm not much of a hugger either; especially awkward with people you don't know. A hand-shaking peace, however, is perfect for visitors. Surely it's a good way of including strangers in the service. I've never had anyone ignore me when visiting other RC churches.
quote:
Originally posted by Leo
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:Meh, I've told people that I can't be RC because I hate holding hands during the Lords Prayer. Obviously that is not the only thing holding me back, but the unapologetic introvert in me enjoys the reaction I get.
I've never seen that at any French church.
I always associate holding hands during the lord's prayer as an evangelical practice and i refuse to do it.
We used to do that once in a blue moon (the previous priest did have a slight evangelical bent). I have to say I didn't mind, but no one moaned if you didn't want to do it. It cut the length of the peace down considerably as you just wished peace to the two people you had hold of. Much better than a group hug.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I can understand confused. Why "disappointed?"
That we are still in a 'war torn environment'. Literally for many countries, but a divided society even in the UK. So a strong reason for celebrating the Peace, whatever the practical issues.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
One way of keeping the Peace "liturgical" is to share it out starting with the celebrant and radiating out, each person receiving the Peace from one person and then giving it to one person. Good luck switching to that, though, if the tradition has been that each one greets everyone else.
In a Solemn Mass, we follow a formal process in the sanctuary while the faithful in the nave do whatever they like. The celebrant passes the Peace (bow, embrace and words, bow again) to the deacon and then the subdeacon, the deacon passes it to the MC, the MC bows across the sanctuary to send it via airmail to the crucifer and then greets the thurifer, and it goes down the line to the last torchbearer and acolyte.
At Low Mass the celebrant and server do this, and the people greet those near them and wave to the others. Or travel if they wish.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I always hated the peace as it is in the Novus Ordo, something akin to holding hands during the Lord's Prayer (fortunately something that never happened in our parish). Enough to make a person sick.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
One way of keeping the Peace "liturgical" is to share it out starting with the celebrant and radiating out, each person receiving the Peace from one person and then giving it to one person. Good luck switching to that, though, if the tradition has been that each one greets everyone else.
That is theologically dodgy IMHO. It's suggesting that God's Peace is the preserve of the Church and the clergy, and can only be mediated through them. Whereas greeting each other recognises the presence of God in Christ within every person.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It is certainly not a general custom in France for people to hold hands during the Our Father.Of course there might be some places wher it is a custom but certainly not usual.
It is however very common for individuals to hold their hands in the orans position during the recitation of the Lord's prayer.This follows the custom of the priest at the same time.
France is the country where this practice is almost universal.In other countries,including the UK you will see isolated individuals who for a variety of reasons will do this.
Holding hands at the Our Father is something which I personally associate with German Lutherans
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I'm not sure that I am terribly popular at our current parish, but to worsen matters I have spent two years trying to shorten the peace from ten minutes of checking up on the grand-children (or, more likely, great grand children) and discussing wool prices in Patagonia to about a minute (which I think is 30 seconds too long) of greeting those in one's immediate vicinity. I announce the offertory hymn - but there's no guarantee my musician(s) are not deeply ensconced in chatter about Mexican arum lilies 3/4 of the way down the nave.
One of my predecessors - who is still there - believed everyone should say hello (or peace, perhaps) to everyone. They would then sing the offertory hymn. They would then sit down while the offertory was taken and, er, offered ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
He reintroduces this when ever he is rostered on ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) . Which is quite often as this is a two centred parish and I have ex-parish duties as well.
But I digress from the peace as war,
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Offering or sharing a sign of peace with the people nearest to you is one thing - OK, not my preference but fine.
Meandering around the church, glad-handing all and sundry like some politician on the stump is, IMHO, not what the peace is or should be.
When was it decided that The Peace was in fact a chance to catch up on gossip, share news, book diary dates?
Announce the Peace, share with those either side, maybe behind and before, then get on with the liturgy - you can see your mates after.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Which leads me to ask: how appropriate is it for the clergy to give instructions, as in "Peace be with you" ("and also with you"), then saying "please share the peace with those immediately near you", or "please greet those around you with the peace of Christ, but please don't move from your place/pew".
I'm kind of uncomfortable with that because it disrupts the flow of liturgy, but the peace as shared can do this disruption already, though not done by clergy.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
One way of keeping the Peace "liturgical" is to share it out starting with the celebrant and radiating out, each person receiving the Peace from one person and then giving it to one person. Good luck switching to that, though, if the tradition has been that each one greets everyone else.
That is theologically dodgy IMHO. It's suggesting that God's Peace is the preserve of the Church and the clergy, and can only be mediated through them. Whereas greeting each other recognises the presence of God in Christ within every person.
Fair enough. But I got the idea from the Order of Julian of Norwich, where it's done that way, so take it up with them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Meandering around the church, glad-handing all and sundry like some politician on the stump is, IMHO, not what the peace is or should be.
I agree in theory. Even more, in theory I would detest the way the Peace is done in my present parish: everybody (thank God it's a small congregation) gets up out of their pew and walks around down one aisle and up the other. The pews have doors which makes it even more confused. No long conversations, but everybody makes sure they greet everyone else.
Yet somehow it works. It does justice to the very varied make-up of the congregation (from retired judges to asylum seekers) and seems to say 'we're all in it together'. Many other aspects of the liturgy (or lack of liturgy) make me cringe, but not this.
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Lone voice: I'm not!
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Which leads me to ask: how appropriate is it for the clergy to give instructions, as in "Peace be with you" ("and also with you"), then saying "please share the peace with those immediately near you", or "please greet those around you with the peace of Christ, but please don't move from your place/pew".
I'm kind of uncomfortable with that because it disrupts the flow of liturgy, but the peace as shared can do this disruption already, though not done by clergy.
I used to worship somewhere where the minister often said "We greet our immediate neighbours with the sign of peace" or words to that effect. I always wanted to shout out "But who is my neighbour?"
If the peace is before the offertory then can't it just be drawn easily to a close by beginning the offertory hymn? Granted there are other issues if it's in the "Roman" position.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
There have been times when it has been important to me to share the peace with a certain person in the congregation. But I'm basically a handshaker, even with my parents because I don't want to treat them differently to others. Though tertiary meetings can be an exception, but we are brothers and sisters there.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Meandering around the church, glad-handing all and sundry like some politician on the stump is, IMHO, not what the peace is or should be.
I agree in theory. Even more, in theory I would detest the way the Peace is done in my present parish: everybody (thank God it's a small congregation) gets up out of their pew and walks around down one aisle and up the other. The pews have doors which makes it even more confused. No long conversations, but everybody makes sure they greet everyone else.
Yet somehow it works. It does justice to the very varied make-up of the congregation (from retired judges to asylum seekers) and seems to say 'we're all in it together'. Many other aspects of the liturgy (or lack of liturgy) make me cringe, but not this.
That makes sense to me.
The peace is not merely a 'liturgical act'. Indeed, saying that would deny what all liturgy is supposed to be about. It's about the peace of Christ being shared among his people. Even if we don't all love each other as much as we should or could, it's saying we know we should wish we did. It is neither only vertical, nor only horizontal.
It also spoke, when it was introduced, against the prevalent notion which preceded it, and which, alas, I'm old enough to remember, that one scuttled into church at 8 am on a Sunday morning once a month and 'made my Communion'.
I think I'd probably say that those who resent having to shake hands with all these nasty people are the ones who most need to. Those like the woman in the OP who most have the urge to drape themselves emotionally over everyone else, are the ones who would most benefit spiritually from restraining themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Anne
Slightly worried now that you might have been visiting one of our churches, as this is exactly what I do. I don't know which one is 'real', but I pray during both.
If I had the courage to ask it of our servers, I would have a bowl of warm water, soap, a proper towel and actually wash my hands, dispensing with the 'squirt' entirely, which is what +Michael Perham recommended when I was training.
Put like that, I think until you can make that change, it's the squirt one that's the 'real' one. If the 'liturgical' one is physically superfluous, it's liturgically superfluous as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger
Same here - though one or two of our people hold up their hands in the orans gesture whilst saying the Lord's Prayer. Nowt wrong with that, ISTM, but I thought the lifting up of the hands was the trad gesture in the Middle Ages at the elevation of the Host, no?
I agree. Why not? The whole notion that there's a right and wrong way of doing everything, that all must worship with synchronised and identical movements, and that these are either 'right' or 'wrong', may be how the 'Great Leader' is worshipped in North Korea, but has no place in any Christian Church.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
IMaybe he should bear my possible feelings in mind and defer to them, but it is just as easy or hard for me to defer to his express intentions isn't it?
Actually as both Chive and Jengie have indicated this isn't always the case - and I'm adding my
experience to theirs. After I was raped the peace made attending church incrediby difficult.
It's easier at the church I go to now as it's smaller and I feel more comfortable with the people, partly because they are more aware of possible boundary issues.
Huia
Yes, I take your point. I wa speaking for myself and realise that for some it is too hard for them to overcome their problems with physical touching, in which case of course the "touchers" should defer and if they will not, despite polite warning as in Chive's case, i would hope the church leaders would be willing to reinforce the message.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
My issues with the peace are due to anxiety, not me not liking the other people at my church.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
So hang on a minute. Does all of this mean I can't try and grab someones arse during the peace?
HAHAHA you made a joke about sexually harassing someone instead of giving them Christ's peace! What a droll substitution!
In such circumstances you may find yourself being greeted with improvised liturgical words and gestures such as "Fuck off, creeper."
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is certainly not a general custom in France for people to hold hands during the Our Father.Of course there might be some places wher it is a custom but certainly not usual.
It is however very common for individuals to hold their hands in the orans position during the recitation of the Lord's prayer.This follows the custom of the priest at the same time.
France is the country where this practice is almost universal.In other countries,including the UK you will see isolated individuals who for a variety of reasons will do this.
Holding hands at the Our Father is something which I personally associate with German Lutherans
Of about eight French churches I have attended, only one featured worshippers with their hands in the orantes position. I have only run into paternoster hand-holding in TEC churches, and I fear that I was very audibly rebuked for having the "wrong attitude" when I did not join in.
I cannot begin to enumerate the times when the Peace was the occasion for a general social exchange in the congregation, sometimes lasting for 3-5 minutes. I can count the two times I was butt-squeezed during the Peace (once by a female, and the other time by a male, so I suppose that this was equal-time low-level sexual harassment) as well as a boob-mashing of a very insistent manner. I have always found the custom of the Peace false and troublesome (and spiritually distracting, but maybe it's me) in Canada and the US, but somehow it is genuine and natural in Spanish-speaking or French-speaking places.
In Canadian and US churches, I try to avoid it through seating myself in difficult-to-reach places. Combined with a lack of enthusiasm, this often works.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
What I find more embarrassing than sharing the Peace is the expectation that, if a small group says the Grace together, we should gaze meaningfully into each others' eyes instead of keeping our heads bowed prayerfully or making the sign of the cross. I don't want to prolong the tangent, except to ask if anyone else has come across this practice and does anyone know its provenance?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Try coming to a non-conformist church and finding them not doing it. A friend, now departed to glory, used to refer to it as the "windscreen wiper grace", because the practice is actually to turn your head so quickly you do not catch anyone's eye.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find more embarrassing than sharing the Peace is the expectation that, if a small group says the Grace together, we should gaze meaningfully into each others' eyes instead of keeping our heads bowed prayerfully or making the sign of the cross. I don't want to prolong the tangent, except to ask if anyone else has come across this practice and does anyone know its provenance?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[runs screaming from the building]
[edited for a bizarre breakage of scroll-lock...]
[ 21. June 2013, 13:31: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find more embarrassing than sharing the Peace is the expectation that, if a small group says the Grace together, we should gaze meaningfully into each others' eyes instead of keeping our heads bowed prayerfully or making the sign of the cross. I don't want to prolong the tangent, except to ask if anyone else has come across this practice and does anyone know its provenance?
Whether you like it or not, it's very widespread.
It derives from the notion that the words are a prayer that we will all go forth with the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, and that we are all praying this for each other.
You may disagree with that way of expressing this notion, but it is hardly surprising that people might understand the words that way.
Tangent alert again, and nothing personal
Every time one hears discussion about funerals, somebody grumbles, entirely reasonably, about the inappropriate popularity of 'I did it my way'. I wonder whether most of us who post on this board should leave an instruction for a different version of the song to be sung when we go,
'Everyone else should have done it my way'.
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SyNoddy
Shipmate
# 17009
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Posted
Oh now you're talking! I attended an area meeting of parish reps last night which concluded with The Grace. From my position looking down the room from the 'top table' where I was sitting in order to minute the meeting, I witnessed the two different styles at close quarters. 50/50 split between those still, eyes closed and hands clasped as opposed to room sweeping, crinkle eyed grinners!
Obviously I was in the open eyed half so as to witness the variations, but I am perfecting a technique whereby I look around the gathering but in a manner that avoids meeting the eyes of anyone present!
Not sure how I first became aware of the alternative manner of sharing The Grace. I must have detected some diversion that distracted me from my observance of the traditional style but now I feel anti social if I keep still and close my eyes. Yet at the same time I am uncomfortable with the intimacy of looking into a semi strangers eyes whilst grinning like a loon! Obviously I need therapy or a stiff drink in order to undo my innate Britishness ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 53 | From: Somewhere near the Middle | Registered: Mar 2012
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find more embarrassing than sharing the Peace is the expectation that, if a small group says the Grace together, we should gaze meaningfully into each others' eyes instead of keeping our heads bowed prayerfully or making the sign of the cross. I don't want to prolong the tangent, except to ask if anyone else has come across this practice and does anyone know its provenance?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [runs screaming from the building]
You guys are honestly that threatened by mere eye contact? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Wow.
And, yes, I know I've been kvetching about overly huggy-feely Peaces ... but the above doesn't bother me at all. In the right context, of course. My home group did this very thing last night. We stood up after a time of prayer, joined hands and shared the Grace with each other. A small group of folk who have known each other for years. A safe space.
It's just EYE CONTACT, fellas! Nobody's gonna jump on you and start doing weird things to ya. Not in my church or on my watch, anyhow.
[ 21. June 2013, 13:32: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No, not threatened, just find the whole "looking around at other people whilst saying the grace" thing unbelievably, toe-curlingly, embarrassing, weird and bizarre.
[ 21. June 2013, 09:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, not threatened, just find the whole "looking around at other people whilst saying the grace" thing unbelievably, toe-curlingly, embarrassing, weird and bizarre.
It's all right Laurelin. He's a bloke. We're just made that way.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think all this touchy-feely, let's-be-nice-to-each-other-even-if-it-kills-us stuff is a side product of that vile modern heresy that the other people around me in church are my friends. I find the Quakers admirable and wonderful people, but I believe their one big mistake was calling themselves Friends. Jesus and Paul got it right: those other folk in church are our sisters and brothers, not our friends. Like sisters and brothers, we're stuck with them, and while we're commanded to love them, nobody says we have to actually like them.
Ooh. That's got all my Friday feeling out of my system. I feel much better now.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
A lot of the people in my church are my friends. That doesn't make me want to hug them, or catch their eye during the peace, any more than if I didn't know them from Adam. Friends do these sorts of things because they want to at a time when they want to. Not when the huggy touchy-feely twonk at the front thinks they should.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
... the huggy touchy-feely twonk at the front ...
That should go in the Ship's Dictionary as the definition of "liturgical president".
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You folks know avoidance maintains anxiety right ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find more embarrassing than sharing the Peace is the expectation that, if a small group says the Grace together, we should gaze meaningfully into each others' eyes instead of keeping our heads bowed prayerfully or making the sign of the cross. I don't want to prolong the tangent, except to ask if anyone else has come across this practice and does anyone know its provenance?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [runs screaming from the building]
You guys are honestly that threatened by mere eye contact? Wow.
And, yes, I know I've been kvetching about overly huggy-feely Peaces ... but the above doesn't bother me at all. In the right context, of course. My home group did this very thing last night. We stood up after a time of prayer, joined hands and shared the Grace with each other. A small group of folk who have known each other for years. A safe space.
It's just EYE CONTACT, fellas! Nobody's gonna jump on you and start doing weird things to ya. Not in my church or on my watch, anyhow.
I find eye contact very uncomfortable, to the point of physical discomfort.
[ 21. June 2013, 13:32: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
I think that when it comes to the peace, the person offering the sign should assume in the absence of any evidence to the contrary that the correct sign is a handshake.
I love hugging, but I will only hug people if I am firstly willing to hug them, and secondly and most critically, they are willing to hug me. If the second doesn't apply, the first is irrelevant.
Different churches I have attended do different things for the Peace. The vast majority expect the Peace to be shared in the immediate vicinity only, with limited leaving of pews - only a small minority of particular, usually small congregations adopt the "share as widely as you wish" style. Both require someone to pull it to a close with the next line of liturgy or announcing the next hymn before it gets entirely out of control...
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, not threatened, just find the whole "looking around at other people whilst saying the grace" thing unbelievably, toe-curlingly, embarrassing, weird and bizarre.
This is a New Thing isn't it? We also had a priest who wanted us to hold hands, the right palm facing down and left facing up to signify (I may have it backwards) that we support and are supported or something while saying the Grace. I didn't feel very supported by it myself. I was always looking above the heads of the others and trying to consider if the Grace actually meant anything to me personally in this context, I presume God got it. It was sort of a let's be a Borg hive mind of prayer.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I mentioned the eye-contact Grace thing because it made me realise that I feel the same discomfort with it that others feel about the Peace. So any attempt to coerce people to participate in either, beyond their comfort zone, is not on.
However what both customs, ISTM, are trying to do is to affirm the importance of our horizontal relationship with each other when we meet to worship God ('vertically', if you will forgive the bizarre geometry). In other words, the immanent (God with us) is as important as the transcendent (God the Wholly Other).
But if people are using their discomfort with physical expressions of these liturgical moments as an excuse to deny the importance of the 'horizontal' dimension of worship, let them be anathema. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
As far as I know no-one is. If anything, for me the awkwardness of these practices detracts from the reality of the horizontal component.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I find eye contact very uncomfortable, to the point of physical discomfort.
I think it works both ways. I would feel pretty disconcerted, to say the least, if somebody was avoiding eye contact with me on a date (for example). But if somebody doesn't want to catch my eye during the saying of the Peace or the Grace, that's a different matter. I wouldn't feel offended or put out, I would respect their boundaries.
But I deliberately make eye contact with - for example - shop assistants, to let them know that I realise I'm engaged in a social contract with a human being, not a robot.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You folks know avoidance maintains anxiety right ?
What's that got to do with finding a liturgical practice intrusive and fake?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
A number of people on this thread are saying that touch makes them uncomfortable / panicky for a variety of good reasons (eg PTSD) - avoiding touch (within legal cultural limits) will be likely to maintain and increase this anxiety in the long term.
That is rather different from the second group of people, who are effectively saying they find it over effusive / tacky.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I find the Quakers admirable and wonderful people, but I believe their one big mistake was calling themselves Friends. Jesus and Paul got it right: those other folk in church are our sisters and brothers, not our friends.
So John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
One way of keeping the Peace "liturgical" is to share it out starting with the celebrant and radiating out, each person receiving the Peace from one person and then giving it to one person. Good luck switching to that, though, if the tradition has been that each one greets everyone else.
That is theologically dodgy IMHO. It's suggesting that God's Peace is the preserve of the Church and the clergy, and can only be mediated through them. Whereas greeting each other recognises the presence of God in Christ within every person.
Fair enough. But I got the idea from the Order of Julian of Norwich, where it's done that way, so take it up with them.
When the Peace was merely words sung between priest and people, it was preceded by the celebrant kissing the altar - which suggests that the idea was precisely that the Peace was the preserve of the clergy to give to the laity.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have a dim recollection - very dim as I was only about 10 at the time - that when it was first introduced the Peace was quite orderly. The minister passed the peace to the folks in the front pews and it was passed back, and out in an orderly manner. It took about a minute, and I did not mind it in the least.
Enter next ass. curate who liked to go walkabout (unfortunately not in the Australian sense) and the thing rapidly degenerated into a gab-and-grab fest, though North of England reserve tended to curb the grab element. I began to hate it thoroughly, and still do. It isn't a liturgical action, its a tea break in the liturgy (and no damn tea either!)
PD
[ 21. June 2013, 17:00: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You folks know avoidance maintains anxiety right ?
And the middle of mass is the best time for exposure therapy?
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
... I began to hate it thoroughly, and still do. It isn't a liturgical action, its a tea break in the liturgy (and no damn tea either!)
But PD, aren't you an Archbishop? Doesn't that mean you can abolish it? Or are there some things not even an Archbishop can do?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I simply omit the Peace.
Plenty of opportunity before and after the service to hug.
And no phony pretence involved.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There's precious little opportunity in our society for people to know the comfort of touch with another person that isn't perceived as threatening or sexual. It is a great blessing that we have this opportunity without either of those connotations.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I don't know what sharing the peace entails for others, but in my experience it is just a question of shaking hands with those around you and saying 'Peace be with you'. I quite like it - it's a way of making social contact in quite a structured way, where you're not wondering if you're doing it wrong, or what you should say, or if you're interrupting anyone. And if I'm new to a church, I find it helps me feel more comfortable and more accepted into the group.
Eye contact isn't necessary - you can just fake it by looking at the wrinkles round someone's eyes, and they think you're giving eye contact.
I never actually know what 'the peace' is supposed to be though. Is it supposed to be some tangible thing that we are handing round? I tend to see it as jargon, and I see the shaking hands as a way of people welcoming each other and expressing good wishes. Which they might not do otherwise, as people in England are so often reserved.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Oh now you're talking! I attended an area meeting of parish reps last night which concluded with The Grace. From my position looking down the room from the 'top table' where I was sitting in order to minute the meeting, I witnessed the two different styles at close quarters. 50/50 split between those still, eyes closed and hands clasped as opposed to room sweeping, crinkle eyed grinners!
Obviously I was in the open eyed half so as to witness the variations, but I am perfecting a technique whereby I look around the gathering but in a manner that avoids meeting the eyes of anyone present!
Not sure how I first became aware of the alternative manner of sharing The Grace. I must have detected some diversion that distracted me from my observance of the traditional style but now I feel anti social if I keep still and close my eyes. Yet at the same time I am uncomfortable with the intimacy of looking into a semi strangers eyes whilst grinning like a loon! Obviously I need therapy or a stiff drink in order to undo my innate Britishness
One of the nice things about the BAS in Canada is that it brought into use (as a doxology after communion) a bit of (I think) Ephesians -- the bit that starts: "Glory to God, whose power working in us can do infinitely more than we can ask or imagine: to him....."
THis works brilliantly as a replacement for the Grace after just about any meeting.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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