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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Culture in worship and song
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Sometimes one encounters worship texts or songs that make one feel a bit out of the group. For instance, I sometimes encounter the hymn Lift Every Voice and Sing. I love the hymn (words here), but I experience a sort of dissonance when singing it, which has always been in Episcopal and Lutheran churches in the suburbs.
The same sort of thing happens occasionally when I pick up the New Zealand Prayer Book and end up midway through a canticle about the land of Aotearoa, which I have yet to visit.
Does this sensation occur to others as well, or am I just being too picky?
I wonder whether this is a similar sensation to those who fervently desire inclusive language.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I feel the same about "Lift Every Voice and Sing" in a church context because I don't feel that we (our church body and our congregation) have earned the right to sing it. Ditto with "We Shall Overcome" in a church setting. What do we relatively privileged folks have to overcome? (On the other hand, singing "We Shall Overcome" in the context of a marriage-equality rally would be more meaningful to me.)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Yes, "haven't earned the right" describes the feeling well. Thank you!
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The same sort of thing happens occasionally when I pick up the New Zealand Prayer Book and end up midway through a canticle about the land of Aotearoa, which I have yet to visit.
Does this sensation occur to others as well, or am I just being too picky?
Yes, well for a lot of us our whole lives were singing and hearing constant references to and images taken from another country. (Britain). A completely different country with opposite seasons and different animals and birds (apart from the ones they brought out to makes themselves feel at home). Added to which, this other country and these other people, not who and where we were, was the Centre of the Universe.
It was disturbing at a very deep level. Most of which you could hardly articulate. Neither the phenomenon nor the feelings about it. I still feel enormous anger at this cultural imperialism. Gets worse every year, actually.
But the interesting thing is what really brought it home to me and daily reminds me... is living for the last nearly 30 years in a country which uses its own languages. One of which is my own now. Everything fits and says what it means and means what it says.
I am fascinated by how "other people" do things, don't get me wrong. We can learn a lot and see more and grow. Even grow closer to God. But I am also deeply broken by living like we did.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
It goes the other way with me. I miss the Urbs Fortitudinis (C of I 1926 BCP) quite frequently, and the old 'nudge-nudge; wink-wink' atmosphere of the High Church movement in Ireland. You couldn't dress up, so you showed you were High Church by using the BCP fully.
PD
[ 24. June 2013, 07:15: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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AndyB
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# 10186
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Posted
And the most ardent 1662-er would probably tell you to shush if you mentioned that the Urbs wasn't in the 1662 book and perhaps they should be reading the Benedicite instead!
It's a very fair point. There exist, as the first few posts note, songs and hymns which we have not earned the right to sing. You could also not imagine going into a black majority church and having a month of services with nowt but traditional hymns any more than walking into an Anglican church in Belfast and having a month of classically African-style worship.
The point is something rather important, which is the importance of considering exactly what you are proposing to say or sing before you announce it. Choosing a song because it sounds good is not an excuse for inappropriate words, either because they are absolute nonsense, inappropriate for either the theme of the service or the season of the church's year (or both) or because the singers cannot earn the right to mean them.
There also exist songs and hymns which you would not touch with a bargepole - imagine PD announcing a rousing chorus of Rend Collective Experiment's latest song or me choosing some schmaltzy old time gospel piece of horrendous-sounding truth because they are in entirely the wrong context (not that I could see PD doing that either!)
Or either of us choosing a hymn to be accompanied by much shaking of tambourines.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
And the most ardent 1662-er would probably tell you to shush if you mentioned that the Urbs wasn't in the 1662 book and perhaps they should be reading the Benedicite instead!
Indifferently will be along soon. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I feel the same about "Lift Every Voice and Sing" in a church context because I don't feel that we (our church body and our congregation) have earned the right to sing it.
When I was a summer intern at St. Mary the Virgin in NYC, we sang "Lift Every Voice and Sing" as the offertory hymn. It seemed a little out of place with the smoke and candles and trappings, but the smile on the face of the MC that Sunday, a black man who had experienced both the fight for racial civil rights and gay civil rights, said it all.
A conversation we had later that day with the rector stuck with me, and took this in a different direction than the OP and LC seem to be going. He said that one of the interns, a white straight male from the South, had a particular obligation to know all of the words to that hymn. In a place where the struggles are still real, someone who was thinking of being ordained needed to be ready to stand up and sing it comfortably, to show respect and solidarity.
That brought me back to a moment in High School, when some parents and grandparents of some black students came to an assembly to tell us about their experiences of segregation in Denver. At the end of the assembly, they started to sing "Lift Every Voice and Sing." We didn't have the words, and were not told to stand up, so we sat there and listened. When one of the presenters made a comment at the end about us not standing, we were pretty embarrassed, and wished that someone had said something before hand. I still wish I had known the words, and had been brave enough to join in.
So while you don't need to program that song every week, I don't consider it disrespectful to sing it because you haven't "earned it." I consider it good practice for a time when you need to know it out of respect.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I get a little bit impatient with those who are 1662 BCP fundamentalists. I doubt if the 1662 was used 'literally' even in 1662. The application of a modicum of commonsense to updating the BCP, as was one officially by the Church of Ireland in 1877 and 1926, Free Church of England (1878/1927) and unofficially by the English House of Bishops in 1946, should not create any difficulties for a reasonable person. Liturgy grows and develops a little over time, what I tends to make me feel uncomfortable are revolutions, such as that which occured in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Og, I think "Lift Every Voice and Sing's" placement in our hymnal is indeed an effort to acquaint a broad range of people with the hymn out of respect for its origins and use. But not everyone in every congregation knows its history...it's just another hymn. And I wonder what struggles some of the singers have had in their lives that are equivalent to -- I don't know -- being thrown in prison or bombed or forced to live under apartheid/Jim Crow.
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http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
How many people are aware that "Siyahamba" was collected precisely to show such solidarity. It comes from the collection Freedom is Coming.
Jengie
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
And I wonder what struggles some of the singers have had in their lives that are equivalent to -- I don't know -- being thrown in prison or bombed or forced to live under apartheid/Jim Crow.
You have to understand that there is a difference between singing a song and laying claim to the experiences mentioned in the song. I know very well that I didn't experience the struggles mentioned in the song. So do (I assume) most music directors who program it. When we sing it, we are trying to express our admiration for those who did struggle through vary hard times, sometimes at the hands of our own ancestors, by joining in and singing it with them. If you are going to say that you can't sing it unless you lived through it, the song will be extinct in a few decades, which would be a shame for a song which is, in part, about hope for the future.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
This is all good reasonable discussion. But I wonder if there is somewhere, sometimes, an element of 'oppression envy' here- comparatively comfortable, privileged, liberal people who just wish that they had had the kudos and credibility that comes from having withstood oppression, coupled with a bit of guilt because the oppressors were people who looked a bit like themselves? And maybe, too, a bit of the mentality that is always looking to prove its breadth of spirit by finding an underdog to identfy with (as the Welsh poet Grahame Davies put it - my own translation, from memory- 'In every country I am a Jew/ Except, of course, in Israel:/ There, I am Palestinian')?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
I've often felt a great deal of cultural dissonance when my congregation tries to sing some of the hymns included in With One Voice, aka WOV, aka "The Blue Book". No matter how hard they try---and they do give it an honest try --- this group of white people of largely German and Swedish heritage just can't handle African or Caribbean melodies. They do a fine job with 16th cent. chorales but on "We are Marching in the Light of God", well......at least they try.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
It's very difficult to do a lot of that stuff without coming across as middle-class white suburban people trying desperately hard to be groovy.
My chief irritation with gospel-style hymns in suburban church settings is that there's always someone who starts clapping, invariably on 1 and 3.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
My chief irritation with gospel-style hymns in suburban church settings is that there's always someone who starts clapping, invariably on 1 and 3.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But what's wrong with clapping, if some people feel inclined to do so? And if those people feel inclined to clap on 1 and 3, but you'd rather they clapped on other beat(s), then either you or someone else could lead the clapping on the 'right' beats. Simple, or am I missing something?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But I wonder if there is somewhere, sometimes, an element of 'oppression envy' here- comparatively comfortable, privileged, liberal people who just wish that they had had the kudos and credibility that comes from having withstood oppression
Oh, I'm sure there is. It always seems thus when I see the pointy-hats singing LEVAS.
quote:
Father Weber:
It's very difficult to do a lot of that stuff without coming across as middle-class white suburban people trying desperately hard to be groovy.
Back in the 90s my Synod (=diocese) went through a phase of learning African, Latino, and Caribbean songs. that's pretty much all we sang for a good decade or so in most churches. It's the exact music to which Organmeister refers. Let Us Talents and Tongues Employ is now a favorite of some of our members. Of course, we've learned to play and sing it in a very Northern European, organist sort of way. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Almost invariably, those songs have simple texts that can apply to all people throughout Christendom, and I wouldn't classify them with songs that jar us culturally.
Galilit makes a good point above with the comment about British hymnody. It's something I hadn't really considered, as British Christianity isn't exactly culturally jarring to Americans. It is to British hymnody and liturgical texts that my immigrant ancestors turned when translating Norwegian to English for worship purposes.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
My chief irritation with gospel-style hymns in suburban church settings is that there's always someone who starts clapping, invariably on 1 and 3.
But what's wrong with clapping, if some people feel inclined to do so? And if those people feel inclined to clap on 1 and 3, but you'd rather they clapped on other beat(s), then either you or someone else could lead the clapping on the 'right' beats. Simple, or am I missing something?
No, it's just the equivalent of wearing a sign that says UNFUNKY WHITE BREAD.
Bluesy gospel music in a community that's used to it and knows how to do it is wonderful. Listening to a bunch of stiff Anglos with a pipe organ trying to rock it James Cleveland style makes me cringe. There's every bit as much performance practice to learn and know with gospel as there is for Tudor choral music, and I think too many church musicians are fooled by their perception of gospel as "simple" into thinking they can pull it off. Most often, they can't.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
This is all good reasonable discussion. But I wonder if there is somewhere, sometimes, an element of 'oppression envy' here
I have uneasy feelings in that direction. I would happily sing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" at the predominantly black church downtown. I would happily sing it if one of our own black parishioners requested it at a wedding or funeral, for example. It would feel wrong for it to turn up in the regular schedule of our mostly white, comfortable middle-class church.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
In my experience, the most squirm-worthy rendition of Lift Every Voice and Sing was at Saint James by-the-Investment-Bank in La Jolla, California, led by a huge pasty-white choir of thirty or forty, salted with a black face or three, accompanied by an organ—no piano—on a no-cliche-left-unspoken celebration of Martin Luther King, Jr's, birthday.
Fer cryin' out loud, "We have come over a way that with tears has been watered / We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered," indeed.
The absolute best is at the annual Jamaican Independence Celebration where nothing is left unpandered to: God Save Our Gracious Queen, followed by the sanguinary Star Spangled Banner¹, finishing up with Lift Every Voice and Sing.
¹"[The British & mercenary] blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution / No refuge could save the hireling and slave / From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave".
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Galilit: quote:
Yes, well for a lot of us our whole lives were singing and hearing constant references to and images taken from another country. (Britain). A completely different country with opposite seasons and different animals and birds (apart from the ones they brought out to makes themselves feel at home). Added to which, this other country and these other people, not who and where we were, was the Centre of the Universe.
You know, I had this problem in reverse - I like Margaret Mahy's books. Most of the time when you're reading them you can imagine you're in the UK; but then a volcano erupts, or there's an earthquake, or some Maori burst out of the jungle and start dancing in the street, and you realise that actually you're somewhere very different... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Now THAT is interesting.
Would you think many people felt the same?
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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