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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eucharistic Vestments (Church of England)
Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
....Fortunately for us, being 'free' of the ties that bind others to Diocesan rules,...

Interesting- why so?

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Enoch
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Perhaps they are a peculiar - does Australia have them? Or perhaps they are just peculiar.

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PD
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It is a Sydney thing. There is a diocesan Canon forbidding the use of the Chasuble. I imagine what we have is an extra-diocesan parish, which is thus for either historical, or Dead Horse reasons.

PD

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Fortunately for us, being 'free' of the ties that bind others to Diocesan rules, our celebrants vest in chasuble each Sunday. Come along to our Feast of Title on 18/8 and see it all - with a woman as celebrant and preacher, to boot!

Emendator, are you at CCSL, or somewhere else? This chronology would seem to place the last airing of the chasuble at CCSL in 1911.
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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The Bergman flick Winter Light has a 50's country parish priest in the Church of Sweden wearing a cassock and bands for the Eucharist. Since Bergman's father was the royal chaplain, one imagines his portrayal was typical.

The priest also kneels before the altar for the whole service of table up to the Agnus Dei, which is interesting.

Bergman may have known, but Winter Light
does have its share of film goofs, and those may be some of them. Actually, Swedish Church Law makes no provision for the celebration of the Eucharist without the proper eucharistic vestments, so in Sweden vestments are always worn by the priest celebrant at Mass.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
....Fortunately for us, being 'free' of the ties that bind others to Diocesan rules,...

Interesting- why so?
Emli is attached to an organisation called Communities of Our
Lady - or it could be Community. It is not an official part of the Anglican Church of Australia, but he and others are ordained Anglican priests. AFAIK, none is licensed in Sydney. It is not a splinter group like those associated with the St Paul grouping in the US, or the Traditional Anglican Church here, either. I would not call it a peculiar, as it is not a part of the Anglican Church. AIUI, a peculiar is a recognised part of teh church, not subject to any diocesan authority.

Services used be held in an Anglican church, but I'm not sure if that continues. If they're not, there would certainly be no prohibition on wearing chasubles.

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Knopwood
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Oh yes, I've heard about that outfit. That makes more sense.
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The Bergman flick Winter Light has a 50's country parish priest in the Church of Sweden wearing a cassock and bands for the Eucharist. Since Bergman's father was the royal chaplain, one imagines his portrayal was typical.

The priest also kneels before the altar for the whole service of table up to the Agnus Dei, which is interesting.

Bergman may have known, but Winter Light
does have its share of film goofs, and those may be some of them. Actually, Swedish Church Law makes no provision for the celebration of the Eucharist without the proper eucharistic vestments, so in Sweden vestments are always worn by the priest celebrant at Mass.

I have a little book on the Church of Sweden published about 1948 by SPCK which states that although Church Law makes no provsion for anything other than alb and chasuble to be used for the Mass, some rural parishes used the black garb. It was regarded as an irregularity, and I dare say one that has been remedied by now.

PD

[ 12. July 2013, 05:47: Message edited by: PD ]

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Emli is attached to an organisation called Communities of Our Lady - or it could be Community ...AFAIK, none is licensed in Sydney.

Actually, GeeD, I am still licensed in the Diocese of Sydney.. with the state of Christ's Church militant here in Sydney - how long that will continue for is anyone's guess.

We are definitely Communities: The Anglican Communities of Our Lady - there are currently three communities, two of which are in Sydney and one which is in the Diocese of Newcastle. The latter will be applying to the next Bishop of Newcastle.

We are working towards becoming a peculiar within the framework of the Anglican Church of Australia: how that will develop is an ongoing discernment.

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Oh yes, I've heard about that outfit. That makes more sense.

Heard about us in a nice way, we hope! [Smile]

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Gee D
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Emli , I did a very quick Google search before my post in an effort to find the correct title. I could not find it under either, hence the form of my post. Surely there would have to be some ground to withdraw your Sydney licence, and it's not at the whim of the archbishop?

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Emendator Liturgia
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Gee D - unfortunately my licence is due to be renewed in August - I want to stay licensed but given what is happening around the place - one never knows.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Oh yes, I've heard about that outfit. That makes more sense.

Heard about us in a nice way, we hope! [Smile]
I have a pdf of a back issue of your Clarion which I was heartened to read.
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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It does seem a weird practice. If wearing a chasuble is consider too hot/ too high church/ too much fuss, then it is all these things during the 'liturgy of the Sacrament' as well as during the 'liturgy of the Word.' If the chasuble is worn to emphasise the importance of the eucharistic celebration then why do something which suggests that one part of it is more important than another? Word and Sacrament, in Anglican tradition especially, are two equally important elements of worship.

Exactly. Putting on the chasable at the offertory is very 1970s; Series 3; 'Yours Lord is the Greatness' instead of 'Blessed are you Lord. God of all creation..'; blue rubric; celebrating with no manual acts during the eucharistic prayer 'Look! No hands!'.

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sebby
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*chasuble

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sebhyatt

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Angloid
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I always knew you would agree with me one day, Sebby. [Biased]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It does seem a weird practice. If wearing a chasuble is consider too hot/ too high church/ too much fuss, then it is all these things during the 'liturgy of the Sacrament' as well as during the 'liturgy of the Word.' If the chasuble is worn to emphasise the importance of the eucharistic celebration then why do something which suggests that one part of it is more important than another? Word and Sacrament, in Anglican tradition especially, are two equally important elements of worship.

Exactly. Putting on the chasable at the offertory is very 1970s; Series 3; 'Yours Lord is the Greatness' instead of 'Blessed are you Lord. God of all creation..'; blue rubric; celebrating with no manual acts during the eucharistic prayer 'Look! No hands!'.
The only reason to put on a chasuble during Mass is if one has just removed the cope. Which is done long before the Offertory. Utterly without justification.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The only reason to put on a chasuble during Mass is if one has just removed the cope. Which is done long before the Offertory. Utterly without justification.

In our shack, the cope is on until it comes off for the sermon (if the celebrant is preaching). It goes back on after the sermon and then is changed for the chasuble just before the celebrant ascends to the altar to offer the gifts and cense.
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Knopwood
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Have you changed shacks? [Ultra confused]
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Have you changed shacks? [Ultra confused]

Not since 2002.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
... We are working towards becoming a peculiar within the framework of the Anglican Church of Australia: how that will develop is an ongoing discernment.

So you are seeking to add the 'a'?
[Snigger]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The only reason to put on a chasuble during Mass is if one has just removed the cope. Which is done long before the Offertory. Utterly without justification.

In our shack, the cope is on until it comes off for the sermon (if the celebrant is preaching). It goes back on after the sermon and then is changed for the chasuble just before the celebrant ascends to the altar to offer the gifts and cense.
But why? Why remove it for the sermon?

And Fortescue clearly directs the cope to be taken off before the altar is censed for the first time. Isn't the adoption before the Offertory just creating a strange sort of division within the Mass which has no basis in the liturgy itself? You can't celebrate Mass without the Lessons, so they're just as integral a part of the sacrifice.

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Angloid
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Quite apart from any liturgical or theological correctness, you need broad shoulders to wear a cope. They keep falling off me.

[ 13. July 2013, 07:42: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Quite apart from any liturgical or theological correctness, you need broad shoulders to wear a cope. They keep falling off me.

Perhaps you need to shorten the morse?

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Knopwood
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In fairness, I hasten to add that what Oblatus describes was the practice under our previous (and now departed) interim, but then we aren't nearly as venerable a shack! (We also don't have the Asperges anymore, so there's really no need to begin in cope at all: part of me wondered whether the "dressing for dinner" was just to give them an airing!)
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PD
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Our late Honorary Assistant Priest used to wear a cope until the Offertory which used to bug me no end. It is one of those things that shrieks 'High Church' rather than 'Anglo-Catholic' to me, yet it is surprising how many A-C parishes in the USA do it!

Unless I am in a 1549-ish state of mind, in which case I wear alb and cope all the way through, I stick with the notion that one is only meant to wear a cope for aliturgical function before the Mass. That would cover the Asperges, the Palm Liturgy, etc..

PD

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
But why? Why remove it for the sermon?

And Fortescue clearly directs the cope to be taken off before the altar is censed for the first time. Isn't the adoption before the Offertory just creating a strange sort of division within the Mass which has no basis in the liturgy itself? You can't celebrate Mass without the Lessons, so they're just as integral a part of the sacrifice.

I think there is no "why"; it's the Parish Use, devised by the rector for the 1979 BCP liturgies. [Overused]

Ever shall it be until a new BCP is authorized, I think. Ritual Notes has the preacher, if one of the sacred ministers, remove chasuble, dalmatic, or tunicle as appropriate, and put it back on after the sermon. That might be where our practice (although dealing with cope, not chasuble) came from, or not.

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
But why? Why remove it for the sermon?

And Fortescue clearly directs the cope to be taken off before the altar is censed for the first time. Isn't the adoption before the Offertory just creating a strange sort of division within the Mass which has no basis in the liturgy itself? You can't celebrate Mass without the Lessons, so they're just as integral a part of the sacrifice.

I think there is no "why"; it's the Parish Use, devised by the rector for the 1979 BCP liturgies. [Overused]
In those days there was no liturgical authority in the Church of England: every incumbent did that which was right in his own eyes...

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Angloid
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quote:
Ritual Notes has the preacher, if one of the sacred ministers, remove chasuble, dalmatic, or tunicle as appropriate, and put it back on after the sermon. That might be where our practice (although dealing with cope, not chasuble) came from, or not.
Which presumably comes from the old, unenlightened, idea that the sermon is not part of the liturgy.

[Edit: I think that's sorted (UBB)]

[ 15. July 2013, 00:54: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Unless I am in a 1549-ish state of mind

Unless? [Confused] Do you have another? [Biased]

IIRC, the mid-conciliar reforms of the Roman Rite suppressed (or optionalised?) the cope during the Asperges before the Sunday High Mass.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Unless I am in a 1549-ish state of mind

Unless? [Confused] Do you have another? [Biased]

IIRC, the mid-conciliar reforms of the Roman Rite suppressed (or optionalised?) the cope during the Asperges before the Sunday High Mass.

I've always suspect that, if one peeks over the top of PD's Prayer Book, one will find that he has concealed therein the Westminster Directory.
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PD
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Westminster Hymnal is far more likely.

PD

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
.....the mid-conciliar reforms of the Roman Rite suppressed (or optionalised?) the cope during the Asperges before the Sunday High Mass.

Which had the practical effect of optionalising (and therefore virtually suppressing) the Asperges altogether in all but a tiny number of places.
[Frown] [Disappointed] [Waterworks]

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The only reason to put on a chasuble during Mass is if one has just removed the cope. Which is done long before the Offertory. Utterly without justification.

In our shack, the cope is on until it comes off for the sermon (if the celebrant is preaching). It goes back on after the sermon and then is changed for the chasuble just before the celebrant ascends to the altar to offer the gifts and cense.
But why? Why remove it for the sermon?
In most places wherein I have worked in recent decades it would be a good medical, if not liturgical idea, because they're so bloody hot.

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
In most places wherein I have worked in recent decades it would be a good medical, if not liturgical idea, because they're so bloody hot.

What lax, degenerate days we live in, when even the clergy expect to be comfortable.

[Biased]

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PD
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I have a sizable personal grudge in summer against the flipping idiot who revived Eucharistic vestments in the Anglican tradition. The only thing larger is the puddle of sweat I am stood in!

PD

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Emendator Liturgia
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PD - is your issue about another layer of clothing, or the weight of that extra layer?

The chasubles and dalmatics that we use in summer are very light weight, unlined, vestments made of dupioni silk - they weigh so much less than an alb and with the fans on (or, as in the case of our present shack, the air conditioning)Sunday morning services in summer are no different to those in winter. Maybe you could look at some for those hot climes and times?

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
In most places wherein I have worked in recent decades it would be a good medical, if not liturgical idea, because they're so bloody hot.

What lax, degenerate days we live in, when even the clergy expect to be comfortable.

[Biased]

It might help to cut down sermons to a bearable length.

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Gee D
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One Ash Wednesday, quite a few years ago now, I was doing some work in a court west of the Dividing Range. A stinking hot day, still around 40 C in the evening. Madame and I went to the 7 pm Eucharist, and before the start, the priest came out in alb and stole. He apologised that he would not be wearing a chasuble as they were all heavy and hot, especially the Lenten purple. We noticed that he was not wearing trousers as his bare legs protruded from under the alb, and he was wearing simple leather sandals.

All this was perfectly understandable, and gave the service a timeless quality, a service which could have been happening 1500 years ago in the Middle East or southern Italy, just as much as in a modern day city on the edge of the Outback.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In my experience most, but by no means all, of the "open" and "charismatic" evangelical Anglicans went over to some kind of eucharistic vestments between about 1990 and 2010. Many conservative evangelicals do not use them - some prefering to wear normal clothes, others sticking with cassock and surplice.

It's cassock and surplice for me for the "traditional" Holy Communion service. Normal clothes (usually clericals) for the informal service which follows.
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Angloid
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Wouldn't an alb be cooler in this weather? Point of information: when you say you robe for 'traditional' holy communion do you have other 'non-traditional' communion services for which you do not? (Though why wear clerical collar in that case?)

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In my experience most, but by no means all, of the "open" and "charismatic" evangelical Anglicans went over to some kind of eucharistic vestments between about 1990 and 2010. Many conservative evangelicals do not use them - some prefering to wear normal clothes, others sticking with cassock and surplice.

It's cassock and surplice for me for the "traditional" Holy Communion service. Normal clothes (usually clericals) for the informal service which follows.
Dressing down as the service goes to informal sounds like the opposite of what many TEC clerics do when they "dress for dinner," and put on a chasuble for the post-Word part of the service. Mind you, I am having trouble processing how clericals constitute normal clothes, but that may be due to our local heat wave (32°C+ and climbing) and how it is affecting the clarity of my thinking.

If I might be permitted a minor tangent, I am reliably informed that a lightweight cassock is cooler to wear than street clothes. For some years, a local cleric who had spent time in Morocco wore a galabeah (transliteration of the Arabic is variable) as an alb in summer. He used to refer to the embroidery at the neck as a "Casablanca apparel."

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Wouldn't an alb be cooler in this weather? Point of information: when you say you robe for 'traditional' holy communion do you have other 'non-traditional' communion services for which you do not? (Though why wear clerical collar in that case?)

Not usually, as cassock-albs are usually polyester heat islands. My cassocks are generallysome sort of rayon blend that breaths, and the surplice is usually poly-cotton these days - again breathable. It is counter intuitive, but choir habit is usually more comfortable than a poly cassock-alb especially if your problem is humidity as well as heat as the sweat has somewhere to go and evaporate.

PD

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
PD - is your issue about another layer of clothing, or the weight of that extra layer?

The chasubles and dalmatics that we use in summer are very light weight, unlined, vestments made of dupioni silk - they weigh so much less than an alb and with the fans on (or, as in the case of our present shack, the air conditioning)Sunday morning services in summer are no different to those in winter. Maybe you could look at some for those hot climes and times?

Basically, it is the extra layer, but it is a bit subtler than that. I usually wear a linen alb and fiddleback chasuble with a 'keyhole' neck line in summer, which is very comfortable, as there isn't a load of stuff tight around the neck, so the steam can get out. However, if we have a white or red day I have to wear the gothic sets which are best described as being 'winter North Atlantic' weight. With the extra weight and no ventilation at the neck I find the two Masses leave me totally exhausted, and borderline for heat stroke no matter what degree I hydrate.

BTW, if anyone expresses the opinion that celebrating with the English Use ceremonial in a fiddleback is odd, I point to the termometer on the nave wall, which is usually stuck around 25-28C inside with the A/C on at the start of Mass at this time of year. I know a lot of people can take that level of heat and even enjoy it, but I grew up by the North Sea and anything over 23C is a heatwave to me.

PD

[ 15. July 2013, 17:38: Message edited by: PD ]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Wouldn't an alb be cooler in this weather? Point of information: when you say you robe for 'traditional' holy communion do you have other 'non-traditional' communion services for which you do not? (Though why wear clerical collar in that case?)

First, the words "alb" and "cooler" should never appear in the same sentence. Second, yes, the informal service is Eucharistic once a month. I don't robe for it.
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leo
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We left off the chasuble yesterday - the hottest day in England since 2006.

The visiting, retired priest asked me if the vicar would approve. I reminded him that Fr. Tooth went to jail for wearing a maniple, with a twinkle in my eye, and then said that it would be better to pray the eucharist in holiness than to go through the motions preoccupied with brow-mopping.

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daronmedway
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@Angloid

I wear a clerical shirt under my cassock and surplice because cassocks look rubbish without a dog collar, IMO. The informal service follows straight after the trad HC service so I just disrobe and start the next service. Personally I'd prefer to wear "normal" clothing.

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PD
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BTW, we get a lot of power outages in a summer due to thunderstorm activity. So my no electricity stand-by is an old English surplice and a long stole thrown over street dress. At that point we throw the windows open and pray for a breeze, fans come out of purses, and the men use their bulletins as fans!

PD

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Wouldn't an alb be cooler in this weather? Point of information: when you say you robe for 'traditional' holy communion do you have other 'non-traditional' communion services for which you do not? (Though why wear clerical collar in that case?)

First, the words "alb" and "cooler" should never appear in the same sentence. Second, yes, the informal service is Eucharistic once a month. I don't robe for it.
In my albed years, I found it a comfortable garment during warmer days (which in Ottawa and eastern Ontario hits the mid-30s with a humidex more reminiscent of Rangoon than Richmond). It might be that you are using a poly-cotton blend, which is notoriously unbreathable. There is a reason why the Egyptians prefer cotton.
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daronmedway
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Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.
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