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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eucharistic Vestments (Church of England)
Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.

A combination of [Overused] and [Killing me]

I like that very much indeed.

Thurible

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.

I had to look up onesie, such are the limitations of my cultural development, and I think it would likely be warmer than a cotton alb. As far as being a middle-aged Obi Wan Kenobi impersonator goes, perhaps one should better frame it as being an impersonator of an apostolic-age servant of the people. Doubtless coolness, temperature-wise, and image-wise, will surely increase.
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Thurible
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I was assuming that daronmedway was just rejecting the "cassockalb and stole" look. I'm sure he'd be very happy to stand at God's Board wearing a chasuble.

Thurible

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.

[Killing me] [Overused]

Could not have put it better myself!

PD

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I was assuming that daronmedway was just rejecting the "cassockalb and stole" look. I'm sure he'd be very happy to stand at God's Board wearing a chasuble.

Thurible

I've never worn a chasuble and I honestly doubt I ever will. Choir dress seems perfectly adequate to me. I'd only make a prat of myself if I tried to understand the complexities and nuances of such things. There's a vestry cupboard full of the things in my current church so it's not unheard of in the parish, but I just wouldn't know where to start. And I don't really much want to either. Sorry to disappoint. [Frown]

[ 16. July 2013, 11:15: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Albertus
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Just out of interest, daron- cassock, surplice and coloured stole, cassock surplice and scarf, or just cassock and surplice?

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daronmedway
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Cassock, surplice, preaching scarf (black), academic hood for non-Eucharistic services.
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Albertus
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Thanks, that's pretty much the picture I had of you.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I was assuming that daronmedway was just rejecting the "cassockalb and stole" look. I'm sure he'd be very happy to stand at God's Board wearing a chasuble.

Thurible

I've never worn a chasuble and I honestly doubt I ever will. Choir dress seems perfectly adequate to me. I'd only make a prat of myself if I tried to understand the complexities and nuances of such things. There's a vestry cupboard full of the things in my current church so it's not unheard of in the parish, but I just wouldn't know where to start. And I don't really much want to either. Sorry to disappoint. [Frown]
I trust you have the PCC's permission for not using their customary vesture.

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PD
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In my experience only the clergy and Anglo-Catholics give a monkey's toss about what t'Vicar wears. The rest of the congregation seem to take the attitude of does he robe or not, and generally that's about as far as it gets.

When I was filling in various places when I was first priested I would pack cassock, surplice and stole when celebrating HC. If they wanted Eucharistic vestments, they would lay them out for me, if they were content to let me do my own thing they's point vaguely at a cupboard and say 'they're in there.' With the exception of one Anglo-Catholic parish I found no-one seemed to mind the 1980s TV Vicar approach to vesture.

PD

[ 16. July 2013, 16:01: Message edited by: PD ]

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daronmedway
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I do have that permission granted to me in line with Canon B 8.2.

However, my current vesture for the early Holy Communion is perfectly in keeping with Canon B 8.3, 4, and 5 although I might ask the PCC if I can start omitting the cassock considering that there seems to be no mention of it. [Razz]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.

I had to look up onesie, such are the limitations of my cultural development, and I think it would likely be warmer than a cotton alb. As far as being a middle-aged Obi Wan Kenobi impersonator goes, perhaps one should better frame it as being an impersonator of an apostolic-age servant of the people. Doubtless coolness, temperature-wise, and image-wise, will surely increase.
Why would I impersonate an apostolic-age servant of the people when I can be a real 21st Century one? [Confused]
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Seriously. I'd rather minister in a onesie than lead God's people in worship dressed like a doughy, middle aged Obi-Wan Kenobi impersonator. Not cool.

I had to look up onesie, such are the limitations of my cultural development, and I think it would likely be warmer than a cotton alb. As far as being a middle-aged Obi Wan Kenobi impersonator goes, perhaps one should better frame it as being an impersonator of an apostolic-age servant of the people. Doubtless coolness, temperature-wise, and image-wise, will surely increase.
Why would I impersonate an apostolic-age servant of the people when I can be a real 21st Century one? [Confused]
Perhaps it is intended to put the wearer into the frame of mind.
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daronmedway
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I suppose so. But for me ministerial servanthood is first of all an act of the will not a frame of the mind. In fact, the frame of mind has almost nothing to do with it!
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Olaf
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Whatever you do, make sure you are well-dressed. I'll never forget the "ugly tie" sermons of 2008. Our pastor tried doing a suit-and-tie thing for a couple weeks, and it turns out his fashion sense is atrocious. None of us said a thing, choosing instead to let it play out. When he finally remarked that he thought we would have said something, we told him that we were thankful he had provided us with a diversion: we made it a game to guess what ugly color he would wear, and texted back and forth during his sermons, which we hadn't heard for weeks. Next week, he was in a chasuble.
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daronmedway
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Are you really saying that you colluded in the mockery of your pastor - the man given to you by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ himself - during the Liturgy of the Word merely for his choice of tie?

Shame on you. [Disappointed]

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Matt Black

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My eldest son, when he first saw my uncle in full priestly vestments, exclaimed "Uncle J- looks like a Jedi Master - cool!"

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I do have that permission granted to me in line with Canon B 8.2.

However, my current vesture for the early Holy Communion is perfectly in keeping with Canon B 8.3, 4, and 5 although I might ask the PCC if I can start omitting the cassock considering that there seems to be no mention of it. [Razz]

Sorry if my comment came across as snarky when it was just meant to be gentle teasing!

While I am sure PD is right that no-one but anglo-catholic anoraks bats an eyelid at the details of vesture, I'm sure people notice if the worship is slap-happy. Not that I am accusing you of that, daron: it is just as possible to lead worship reverently dressed in T-shirt and jeans as alb and chasuble, and in some contexts more so. But as others have said (on another thread? I can't keep track) liturgy isnt just words on a page but a unity, and what we say, how we stand and move, what we wear, must be consistent.

I attended a Prayer Book holy communion the other day in a church where the present default vesture is alb/surplice and stole, but chasubles hang in the vestry cupboard. The president on this occasion (very suitably for the rite concerned) wore surplice and black scarf. Horses for courses.

But daron, if you are seriously considering abandoning the cassock , please wear an ankle-length surplice! (The reason the cassock isn't mentioned in the rubrics is presumably because it is not a liturgical vestment but street clothes, in theory.)

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daronmedway
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There you go. That's my theory blown of the water. Right there.
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suppose so. But for me ministerial servanthood is first of all an act of the will not a frame of the mind. In fact, the frame of mind has almost nothing to do with it!

I had thought that they were closely intertwined and linked, but this is an interesting idea, and I will think about it (no snark here).
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I do have that permission granted to me in line with Canon B 8.2.

However, my current vesture for the early Holy Communion is perfectly in keeping with Canon B 8.3, 4, and 5 although I might ask the PCC if I can start omitting the cassock considering that there seems to be no mention of it. [Razz]

But daron, if you are seriously considering abandoning the cassock , please wear an ankle-length surplice! (The reason the cassock isn't mentioned in the rubrics is presumably because it is not a liturgical vestment but street clothes, in theory.)
I remember buying my cassock from Taylor's of Oxford in the summer of 2004. The man measuring me for said garment said the following words in a tone which can only described as withering.

"I presume you'll be wanting a sarum cassock, sir. You look rather prone to weight gain."

Git.

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PD
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Got the same routine from the tosser who measured me for my cassock in 1992. In fairness I would point out I have always been decidedly 'four square' or more colourfully 'built like a brick shithouse.'

I doubt if I have worn a cassock regularly since 2002. Long surplice - Old English from a certain well known firm in Exeter - over street clerics has been the rule in summer due to the heat. I tend to wear cloth jampot collars from MDS, and the plastic ones are (a) uncomfortable (b) especially in hot weather, and (c) tend to dig in giving me what for all the world look like hickies!

PD

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Albertus
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...or at least, that's what you tell Mrs PD...

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

I've never worn a chasuble and I honestly doubt I ever will. Choir dress seems perfectly adequate to me. I'd only make a prat of myself if I tried to understand the complexities and nuances of such things. There's a vestry cupboard full of the things in my current church so it's not unheard of in the parish, but I just wouldn't know where to start. And I don't really much want to either. Sorry to disappoint. [Frown]

Oh yes, Eucharistic vestments are sooo complicated that you'd best stay away from them. We understand your fears. Only the brighter lads should be allowed near such things..
[Disappointed]
*

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Angloid
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I had to laugh when an evangelical colleague, dressed in cassock, surplice, hood and scarf - possibly also bands - said he preferred this vesture as it was 'simpler'. Simpler than alb, stole and chasuble?

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I had to laugh when an evangelical colleague, dressed in cassock, surplice, hood and scarf - possibly also bands - said he preferred this vesture as it was 'simpler'. Simpler than alb, stole and chasuble?

It's a similar story with a church I've been to recently, where their informal "family" Eucharist sees them leave off the chasuble and simply wear alb and stole. This apparently is an informal way of dressing. I find this slightly hard to comprehend.
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Utrecht Catholic
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I find the reasons expressed by Evangelicals for not wearing the chasuble,rather odd and not convincing.
I suppose that it is their puritanical, calvinistic approach to liturgical matters.
In the scandinavian Lutheran churches,all presiders wear the alb with chasuble,even if they are Evangelical or Low-church,

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I had to laugh when an evangelical colleague, dressed in cassock, surplice, hood and scarf - possibly also bands - said he preferred this vesture as it was 'simpler'. Simpler than alb, stole and chasuble?

It's a similar story with a church I've been to recently, where their informal "family" Eucharist sees them leave off the chasuble and simply wear alb and stole. This apparently is an informal way of dressing. I find this slightly hard to comprehend.
I was once told by a priest that he wasn't going to put on an amice because "what does wandering round with a cloth tied round my neck say to twenty-first century people?" He was, at that point, wearing an alb, stole, and chasuble.

Thurible

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Augustine the Aleut
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Thurible posts:
quote:
I was once told by a priest that he wasn't going to put on an amice because "what does wandering round with a cloth tied round my neck say to twenty-first century people?" He was, at that point, wearing an alb, stole, and chasuble.
I had a similar experience, with a cleric going on about how a chasuble inhibits a missional strategy towards the world outside, where authority is diminished by out-of-context ritual garb. He was wearing a cassock-alb with stole.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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In reality, I doubt whether most of the folk in the pews, and definitely pretty much all the ones outside, really care much what frock you wear.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I find the reasons expressed by Evangelicals for not wearing the chasuble,rather odd and not convincing.

What about this reason - the concept of 'special clothes' for those with particular roles / functions in the church gathering is utterly absent from the New Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong...

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I find the reasons expressed by Evangelicals for not wearing the chasuble,rather odd and not convincing.

What about this reason - the concept of 'special clothes' for those with particular roles / functions in the church gathering is utterly absent from the New Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong...
In the Apocalypse when St. John sees Christ with the clouds. Christ is dressed in priestly garb.
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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
In the Apocalypse when St. John sees Christ with the clouds. Christ is dressed in priestly garb.

Maybe so, but what does that have to do with any special clothes that should be worn by people with specific roles / functions in our church services?

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, I doubt whether most of the folk in the pews, and definitely pretty much all the ones outside, really care much what frock you wear.

True, but they probably wouldn't care whether the liturgy was in accordance with scriptural orthodoxy either. Not a particularly relevant comment if I may say so, Karl.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
In the Apocalypse when St. John sees Christ with the clouds. Christ is dressed in priestly garb.

Maybe so, but what does that have to do with any special clothes that should be worn by people with specific roles / functions in our church services?
Because the priest serves the liturgy in the person of Christ.
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South Coast Kevin
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Should the priest also get tattood and have a sword coming out his mouth then? Or do you take some of the imagery literally and some metaphorically?

In any case, I thought the New Testament describes all Christians as priests... What is the biblical basis for this special 'priest' role you talk about? [Razz]

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Should the priest also get tattood and have a sword coming out his mouth then? Or do you take some of the imagery literally and some metaphorically?

All one need do is use commonsense.



quote:
In any case, I thought the New Testament describes all Christians as priests... What is the biblical basis for this special 'priest' role you talk about? [Razz]
The Apostles.
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Angloid
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I believe that distinctive vesture is paradoxically a good safeguard against clericalism. Inevitably, whether you believe in the 'priesthood of all believers' or not, in practice one person (or maybe two or three, but rarely more) is going to be the focus of attention during an act of worship. If that person wears clothes and adopts a style which minimises his/her personality, s/he will be seen in role rather than as 'Father So-and-so' or 'Pastor x'. Hence less likely to be hero-worshipped or treated as special outside the liturgy.

I know there are probably equally strong arguments the other way, but I am just defending the value of 'uniform'. Which does not depend on an exalted or exaggerated theology of priesthood.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I believe that distinctive vesture is paradoxically a good safeguard against clericalism. Inevitably, whether you believe in the 'priesthood of all believers' or not, in practice one person (or maybe two or three, but rarely more) is going to be the focus of attention during an act of worship. If that person wears clothes and adopts a style which minimises his/her personality, s/he will be seen in role rather than as 'Father So-and-so' or 'Pastor x'. Hence less likely to be hero-worshipped or treated as special outside the liturgy.

I know there are probably equally strong arguments the other way, but I am just defending the value of 'uniform'. Which does not depend on an exalted or exaggerated theology of priesthood.

Agreed. This is why I find highly personalised vestments to be very distasteful. It's not what they're for!

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Utrecht Catholic
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Mr.South Coast Kevin,
The Church does not only believe in the Bible,but also in the Tradition.
Both the Western and the Eastern Church have been using liturgical vestiture for ages.

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Robert Kennedy

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, I doubt whether most of the folk in the pews, and definitely pretty much all the ones outside, really care much what frock you wear.

True, but they probably wouldn't care whether the liturgy was in accordance with scriptural orthodoxy either. Not a particularly relevant comment if I may say so, Karl.
Not directly relevant perhaps.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
In the Apocalypse when St. John sees Christ with the clouds. Christ is dressed in priestly garb.

Maybe so, but what does that have to do with any special clothes that should be worn by people with specific roles / functions in our church services?
On observation made to me some time ago seemed fairly accurate. Whatever clothes the worship leaders was wearing had become special clothes by reason of their role. They always signify something. Do they signify an attempt to link us with the formal clothing of the early church? Do they signify an attempt to link us to Renaissance princelings? Do they attempt to link us to Hanoverian academics? Do they demonstrate an admiration for those who got their suits off the rack at Harry Rosen's in 1994 (a comment I heard of the preacher at Holy Trinity in Toronto)? Or do they show us our bonds with golfers of the turn of the millennium? They never mean nothing, even when the wearer does not think that there is any meaning attached.
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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
They never mean nothing, even when the wearer does not think that there is any meaning attached.

Indeed. There is no "neutral".
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I find the reasons expressed by Evangelicals for not wearing the chasuble,rather odd and not convincing.

What about this reason - the concept of 'special clothes' for those with particular roles / functions in the church gathering is utterly absent from the New Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong...
Given that most of the NT was written by people who were Christian to other Christians, it should not be surprising that it is not an encyclopedia of how the 1st century church conducted its liturgy.

Some people assume that because St Paul never mentions the Virgin Birth that he either didn't know about it, or didn't believe in it. That seems to me a similar method of bad reasoning.

The only thing we can conclude is that vestments are not mentioned in the NT (apart from St John's Revelation, in the scenes depicting the heavenly liturgy). The question might arise, though, whether we should pattern our liturgy after that which was revealed to John. I know what my answer to that would be. [Smile]

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Should the priest also get tattood and have a sword coming out his mouth then? Or do you take some of the imagery literally and some metaphorically?

All one need do is use commonsense.



quote:
In any case, I thought the New Testament describes all Christians as priests... What is the biblical basis for this special 'priest' role you talk about? [Razz]
The Apostles.

My understanding of Apostolic ecclesiology is that the church is a kingdom of priests led by Christ the high priest, not a group of laity led by earthly priests.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My understanding of Apostolic ecclesiology is that the church is a kingdom of priests led by Christ the high priest, not a group of laity led by earthly priests.

A priestly kingdom or a kingdom of priests? There is a difference.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Should the priest also get tattood and have a sword coming out his mouth then? Or do you take some of the imagery literally and some metaphorically?

All one need do is use commonsense.



quote:
In any case, I thought the New Testament describes all Christians as priests... What is the biblical basis for this special 'priest' role you talk about? [Razz]
The Apostles.

My understanding of Apostolic ecclesiology is that the church is a kingdom of priests led by Christ the high priest, not a group of laity led by earthly priests.
Christ is the priest, yes. The "priests" merely act in his person. When the "priest" baptises it is Christ who baptised and so on. What is sometimes referred to as the "priesthood of all believers" (though such a phrase is not mentioned in the scriptures) means that through baptism we are able to participate in the Mysteries of the Church, such as receiving holy communion.

[ 19. July 2013, 09:46: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Christ is the priest, yes. The "priests" merely act in his person. When the "priest" baptises it is Christ who baptised and so on. What is sometimes referred to as the "priesthood of all believers" (though such a phrase is not mentioned in the scriptures) means that through baptism we are able to participate in the Mysteries of the Church, such as receiving holy communion.

When I was in training, it was the custom to send out "ordination cards", which said something like "Please pray for N., to be ordained by M., Bishop of Barchester".

One year, an Orthodox friend mischievously suggested they should really say, "Please pray for N., to be ordained by the Holy Spirit, at the intercession of M., Bishop of Barchester."

(Also, as is occasionally pointed out 'round here, "the priesthood of all believers" does not necessarily imply "the priesthood of each believer".)

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My understanding of Apostolic ecclesiology is that the church is a kingdom of priests led by Christ the high priest, not a group of laity led by earthly priests.

Of course it is. Unfortunately, Christ has a tendency to be late for services, so somebody has to stand in for him.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My understanding of Apostolic ecclesiology is that the church is a kingdom of priests led by Christ the high priest, not a group of laity led by earthly priests.

Of course it is. Unfortunately, Christ has a tendency to be late for services, so somebody has to stand in for him.
Yep. He's called the Holy Spirit and he indwells his temple, the church.
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