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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sorting out the Shoebox
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have been taking a serious look at our church building. This is a 48' by 30' shoebox with an apse 19' wide and 9'6" deep at the liturgical east end. If you were being extremely sharitable you could describe the floor plan as basilican. The ceiling height is about 10'4" and I have not get assessed the feasibility of opening up the ceiling.
There are some pictures at http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/ttac/stpaulphotoindex.html
So far I have evacuted all furniture except the altar, credence table and pulpit/ambo out of the apse, and the area between the front pew and the double step up to the apse as a short liturgical choir with the communion rails between the congregation and the choir.
Any thoughts, suggestions on how to improve the place? And no, bulldozing it and starting oer is NOT an option!
Many thanks,
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Oh my, this reminds me so much of a church from my past. At least your décor is more late-80s glam than mid-70s far-out.
To get the armchair-decorative ball rolling:
- Ditch the wallpaper
- Remove the 'rood screen' on your ceiling--it can't be structural, is it?
- While you're at it, ditch the soffit lighting around the nave walls
- What's above the drop ceiling? Can you raise the ceiling?
- Eliminate sacristies on each side.
- Remove front pews. Move chancel out. U-shaped communion rail.
- Lose curvy walls of apse. New long sacristy in liturgical East, spanning width of space.
- Carpet? Really?
I think the ceiling and wall lighting are probably the most pressing issues, if anything can be done with them. They seem to push one down into kneeling position.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
So you know what we are trying to make the space work for, I should perhaps mention that the liturgy here is 1928 BCP with some American Missal.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Restain all your wood (sanctuary chairs and prie-dieux) to be the same color, preferably to all match your current darkest wood.
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Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
My church is shaped similarly to yours, but was designed with Protestant Word-centric worship in mind. I've split the chancel by moving the pulpit to the south and put a lectern on the north, both off the "stage" area. I moved the altar up onto the "stage", right where it's the focal point of the room. I am forced to use the top of the organ for a creedence table, since I can't get rid of the instrument and can't fit a proper table. It being a Methodist church, the rails are pushed out in front of everything. But all of that work on my end makes it look a lot like yours already is. My ceiling is sheet rock where yours looks like paneling or something, but that's the major difference.
I think I'd swap carpet for hardwood, and I'd get rid of the ceiling if at all possible. I love the natural light coming in the windows; I think that's always better than electric light. It can be tricky to choose a fixture and bulb that gives enough light to see without being garish. If you end up getting rid of the ceiling, however, consider elongating the windows and putting in stained glass.
If there is any way to knock out the east wall and elongate the chancel/sanctuary, I would seriously consider it. That's what I'd like to do at my place. It would give you a proper quire, and would help with the ambiance. The only thing would be the acoustics, but there are experts who can help with that. Architects who design Church of Christ meeting houses, for instance. Or alternately knock out the west wall and shift everything west by that much.
This one may show my ignorance, but... can you pull the altar out and celebrate facing the people? Can you add, oh I don't know, two or four candlesticks to the altar? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
That's my two cents worth, anyhow.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
The only thing would be the acoustics, but there are experts who can help with that. Architects who design Church of Christ meeting houses, for instance..
Only if you wish to be stuck with an unimaginative and ugly A-frame.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
The only thing would be the acoustics, but there are experts who can help with that. Architects who design Church of Christ meeting houses, for instance..
Only if you wish to be stuck with an unimaginative and ugly A-frame.
Not necessarily. I attended a wedding at a CofC, erm, building (this one had on the sign out front "So and So Church of Christ meets here", so I'm hesitant to call their building "the church" -- but I digress) and it was not an a-frame. It was a rather nice building, I might add. It was not exactly designed with liturgical worship in mind, but my point is simply that there are people out there who know how to design a building so it projects sound to the audience, and finding one to give a consultation would be a very good thing. Not having to have microphones (except maybe for the t-loop or recording) is a good thing, I think.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
You've changed buildings within recent memory: might you contemplate changing again?
I think the most pressing challenge would be to raise the ceiling.
I'm guessing the "rood" that Olaf objects to serves as a scrim to hide the ceiling fan over the sanctuary.
Of the pulpit and lectern, I'd be inclined to ditch one and move the remaining one closer to the midst. Or ditch them both and go Orthodox, with a preaching desk similar to this one. That cleans the sanctuary out more.
Strip out the wall paper and carpet as Olaf suggests. Plug the east window.
Then, perhaps, concentrate on commissioning and acquiring art worthy of your faith: stations of the cross, Marian effigy, an altar piece. One excellent piece every few years. My parish's memorial fund serves to underwrite vestments and metal work.
That way, if you are able to move again, or to build your own, you'll have furniture you won't have to chuck.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Raising the ceiling definitely has to be a big priority. Paneling instead of ceiling tiles could help if that isn't practical, but you'll never fit a for reals organ in that place without another 5-10 feet of airspace.
Nice, brass lighting fixtures instead of those track lights along the walls wouldn't hurt either.
[ 03. July 2013, 01:18: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Not necessarily. I attended a wedding at a CofC, erm, building (this one had on the sign out front "So and So Church of Christ meets here", so I'm hesitant to call their building "the church" -- but I digress) and it was not an a-frame. It was a rather nice building, I might add. It was not exactly designed with liturgical worship in mind, but my point is simply that there are people out there who know how to design a building so it projects sound to the audience, and finding one to give a consultation would be a very good thing. Not having to have microphones (except maybe for the t-loop or recording) is a good thing, I think.
I am sure you are correct that there are some attractive meeting houses. I have never been in one, I have never seen one but I have heard rumors that they exist. Perhaps like Bigfoot. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
On a more serious note I do take slight exception to your statement that they are not designed for liturgical worship. They are designed for a type of liturgical worship, supremely designed for such. Said worship could fairly be called plain or even stark. It would most likely be found lacking on several levels by many of the denizens here but it is liturgical worship nonetheless.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
We have already discussed taking out the carpet, and I have also ascertained that they covered up a perfectly good hardwood floor with it. No-one likes the wallpaper, but no-one is in too much of a hurry to go through the aggro of trying to remove it!
The ceiling is acoustic tile tacked over a plywood ceiling which was originally panelled. Unfortunately the old roof mounted evaporative coolers leaked periodically which did nasty things to the plywood, so they fixed it by covering them in acoustic tile. I am not sure about the roof structure. The swamp cooler were replaced with A/C in spring 2012, which although not quite adequate does a better job as it cuts the humidity.
The 'rood beam' hides the ceiling fan (very neccessry in summer) and lighting fixtures, half of which have been disconnected as they gave suitably dramatic lighting for full immersion baptisms on the other side of the 'east window.'
The building was originally Church of God (Anderson Synod) and was built in 1927/8, and considerably extended in the early 1950s! Their tradition is word orientated whereas out MOTR Anglican tradition is more of a draw between word and sacrament.
PD
[ 03. July 2013, 06:44: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
On a more serious note I do take slight exception to your statement that they are not designed for liturgical worship. They are designed for a type of liturgical worship, supremely designed for such. Said worship could fairly be called plain or even stark. It would most likely be found lacking on several levels by many of the denizens here but it is liturgical worship nonetheless.
I assure you no offence was meant, and I did consider that very thing. I merely could not think of a better way to describe it without making a wordy post even more wordy. How about we delete "liturgical" and insert "traditionally Anglican worship styles"?
[ 03. July 2013, 12:12: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I thought the ceiling was low and if it could be lifted it would make it more 'airy' and lend it more dignity, but it sounds as though you can't do that
What I would say though is that what we do in Church is perhaps more important than the actual building? At least you do have a building and I think I'd probably be comfortable worshipping there
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'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The big challenge is the dais. It looks to me like a previous church hall and is designed for amateur dramatics along with lighting. Put a screen up in front of it and you will have a large cupboard with no light.
So firstly sort the lighting of it. At the moment its the darkest place, have you ever seen a theatre with drama going on and the stage unlit. You need to get more light onto the dais to concentrate people's focus on the proceedings. Two things I would say are essential, some method of illuminating the altar, and lighting so that the faces of those leading the worship are normally lit when facing the congregation. This helps people hear not just lip readers.
Secondly, keep it simple in that space, it too easily can look cluttered with clashing symbols. Staining the wood so it matches, matching neutral colours in any fabrics that show apart from on the dais. With stuff on the walls stick with less is more approach.
Jengie
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
Please bear with me as my church reordering experience is on UK C of E churches and country houses.
I would agree with others - that ceiling is just too low!
First thing - gently lift a ceiling tile or two, stick a digital camera in and take some flash pictures. This is an easy way of spotting what it is like up there. There may be visual issues with the revealed structure - you may just find that the reason that tiles were put in in the first place was to cover some dreadful structure - while you are at it you could put some insulation up there.
But this all assumes that you have some money to do this.
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Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
+1 to everything Olaf said.
Get rid of those chairs. They don't match and look like they were stolen from a dining room table. Get some that are less rounded. All of your other furnishing is straight edged. You need some chairs of the same style and color as the other pieces. Might as well get some with good cushions while you're at it. Stain or paint all the pews and apse pieces the same.
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Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Saw three feet off the ends of several pews and stagger them throughout the rest of the pews, for wheelchair seating. There's no rule says that wheelchair users all have to sit together, or up front, or down the back.
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
geroff, I suspect that if he looks above the plywood the tiles are stuck to he'll find lumber joists that the plywood is attached to. If so, there's no reasonable way to raise the ceiling. It's still a good idea to have a look around up there for proper insulation and structural condition. If you remove the tiles and sheetrock the ceiling, it would be a great opportunity to insulate and install better lighting over the pews.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
geroff, I suspect that if he looks above the plywood the tiles are stuck to he'll find lumber joists that the plywood is attached to. If so, there's no reasonable way to raise the ceiling. It's still a good idea to have a look around up there for proper insulation and structural condition. If you remove the tiles and sheetrock the ceiling, it would be a great opportunity to insulate and install better lighting over the pews.
That's what I found when I looked in the false roof at the 'east' end of the building, but that is in the area above the old baptismal tank, and the apse where there is considerable evidence of several sets of alterations. I really need to climb through and rake a look further west to see what the original structure is like. It is most likely to be simple trusses all the way through, but given the building history of the place the only way to be certain is to go up there and look!
PD
[ 03. July 2013, 21:07: Message edited by: PD ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
... Get rid of those chairs. They don't match and look like they were stolen from a dining room table. ...
Possibly as regards the ordinary wheelback ones, but I'm rather impressed with the episcopal one with the arms. It's distinctive. It looks a lot more comfortable, and more like the sort of chair a person would normally choose to sit on, than the rather ponderous episcopal chairs most churches are lumbered with. It's also easier to move. I like it.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Is it possible to grab more square feet for the sanctuary by extending it into the baptismal area, liturgically east of the altar?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Is it possible to grab more square feet for the sanctuary by extending it into the baptismal area, liturgically east of the altar?
Remove some pews, too, to facilitate the larger sanctuary. It is a rare church that cannot give up a row or three of pews. You'll be the talk of the church forever if your Easter liturgy draws in a standing room-only crowd. If anybody has carpentry skills, those pews can become your new sedilia!
This probably has gone without saying, but I'm afraid your quick solution to a communion rail probably needs to go, too. Extra credit for improvisation, but it's obviously the header (I don't know what other word to use) from the front of a bank of pews.
On a positive note, I do like the accent wall behind the altar. It's better than the dossal curtain in the pics of the old space.
[ 04. July 2013, 02:58: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I had a look in the roof space this evening and it is a kingpost roof. There are joists across the full width, usually made of two pieces of lumber scarfed together, about every 3 feet. There are then a series of kingposts on the centre line of the building with braces from joists to rafters at either end. The down side is that raising the ceiling is either a no-go, or a very big job. The good side is that the roof structure is enormously strong.
I would think the easiest option would be to reskin the ceiling with sheet rock, and provide a modest moulded cornice at the same time as removing the present indirect lighting. The nave and sanctuary would then be lit mainly by can lights in the ceiling.
Version 1 - being the more radical
1. Knockout the sacristies and stage,
2. Turn the old baptistry into the main sacristy. There would also be a small sacristy on the right hand side where the piscina is housed. The is a small 4 by 8 projection on that side of the building which used to house half the ministers office.
3. Create a three sided sanctuary and rail against the east wall, roughly 10' deep by 20' wide where the present stage is. The foot pace and altar would go against the east wall. Improve lighting.
4. Utilize the space previously occupied by the sacristies for the clergy seats with the pulpit and reading desk at the west end of that area on the south side.
Version 2
1. Knock out stage, but retain apse. Lower floor level by about 8" This would improve access to the sacristies.
2. Remove the 'rood beam' and replace with a "flat" eliptical arch to define sanctuary area. The communion rail would then follow the one step leaving an area about 6' by 30' between it and the front row of chairs. The lectern and pulpit, and clergy seats for MP and EP couple then be put port and starboard outside the communion rails.
5. I am half tempted to complete the Georgian effect by painting the walls a pale green, and installing a wooden reredos behind the altar with the Creed, Decalogue, and Lord's Prayer
PD
[ 04. July 2013, 03:35: Message edited by: PD ]
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I think that the chairs definitely must go, and I'd replace them with dark wood Glastonbury chairs , which are smaller and more "churchly". Perhaps you can sell the current chairs to a never-remodeled 1970s' vintage seafood restaurant.
Then, I'd sell the two prie dieu to an antiques dealer and replace them with hassocks that can be tucked under the chairs when not in use.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Since it sounds like the low ceiling is staying, I was thinking something like this would look a lot better than the drop tiles.
You might create the illusion of aisles or mark off the sanctuary or the like by varying the size of the boxes in certain areas, or having some more built up (built down!) lines of molding. Finish off the walls with some pileasters and more molding and it'll look real boffo.
And I LIKE the Georgian idea!
[ 04. July 2013, 10:51: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I think that the chairs definitely must go, and I'd replace them with dark wood Glastonbury chairs , which are smaller and more "churchly". Perhaps you can sell the current chairs to a never-remodeled 1970s' vintage seafood restaurant. ...
Yes, I know there are plenty of identical chairs in pubs and even private houses. But it's precisely because it doesn't look like Percy Dearmer out of William Morris, and every other church in the country (well, this one at least), that I thought the episcopal chair was a refreshing change.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If it is a 1920s building - why not go in keeping, and try to dress it in the art deco style ?
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Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Having a feeling that the ceiling was not workable, I was thinking Georgian as well. Count that as another vote.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You could consider plasterboard (I think this may be what you mean by sheetrock ?) with trompe-l'śil painting to get the effect you want.
It can be very convincing.
[ 04. July 2013, 16:43: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Alternatively, with the georgian ceiling plan - could you incorporat some rooflights ? Maybe over the final position of the sanctuary ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
When my back was keeping me awake last night I started putting together some observations I have made when poking around looking for, or repairing things at the east end of the church.
1. The original ceiling was plywood, and panelled in 3' squares.
2. The present carpet (yuk!) hides a hardwood floor installed at the same time as the present pews. Suspect the pews are 'space age 1950s shuff' and the carpet about 1970. I suspect the place originally had 'church chairs.'
3. The sacristies at the east end are a bit of a mystery. They may be original as they contain remnants of the original cloth wrapped wiring, but the wiring looks like a Saturday afternoon and a crate of beer job so there is a chance they were recycling left overs.
3b. The sacristies are not structural. I need to take a good look at the inside the one on the north side (the store room) and see if it gives me any clues as to the original decor & layout.
4. Something was done up there in the 1960s as the sacristies have hollow core doors (yeech!) and a lot of things do not add up about the apse. The doors into the tank room (not shown in any pictures) are identical four panel doors that look late 1920s vintage! However, they would have been asymmetric when exposed. The one on the right
5. The wall between the 'apse' and the tank looks like an original internal wall through which they punched a hole to create the window through to the baptistry.
6. I am not sure when the acoustic tile went in, but it of the fiberboard with holes drilled in it variety.
I beginning to think there is a pretty strong case for hiring a dumpster (skip) and taking drastic action at the east end. I just need to see if I can reproduce the original floor plan.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
5. The wall between the 'apse' and the tank looks like an original internal wall through which they punched a hole to create the window through to the baptistry.
There are very nice-looking drop ceiling tiles that can be purchased. (For instance, this)
Baptistry? I knew you had low-church leanings, PD, but I didn't know the extent!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Actually, Olaf, the first thing I got the junior warden to do when we moved in was drill three holes in the bottom of the baptism tank. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
At the time we had a lady in the congregation who was a big advocate of full immersion baptism. If she had found out about the tank we never would have heard the last of it. We have a nice little birdbath font in the centre aisle between the main entrance and 'the devils door.'
Low Church baptism in Anglican terms is a quick pour over the head whilst holding little Johnny or Jane over a bowl balanced on the communion rails or an old card table
PD
[ 04. July 2013, 20:39: Message edited by: PD ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Now I have read the history I am pretty confident the dais was for the communion table which would have been towards the front. The CofC tend to celebrate communion weekly, have adult baptism but with a sacramental take and Reformed theology. In other words PD perhaps not as far away from you as you think. They may well have had no musical instruments so there is no space for the praise band.
What I can not recall is where they preach from, maybe Campbellite or Janine could tell you. I suspect either from a communion table or a pulpit on the left or right.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Now I have read the history I am pretty confident the dais was for the communion table which would have been towards the front. The CofC tend to celebrate communion weekly, have adult baptism but with a sacramental take and Reformed theology. In other words PD perhaps not as far away from you as you think. They may well have had no musical instruments so there is no space for the praise band.
What I can not recall is where they preach from, maybe Campbellite or Janine could tell you. I suspect either from a communion table or a pulpit on the left or right.
Jengie
I will preach from the pulpit which located above and behind the communion table or a movable lectern along side the communion table. Every meeting house I have been inside has the same arrangement- more or less.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The problem I have is that the baptistry is where the central pulpit would be!
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The problem I have is that the baptistry is where the central pulpit would be!
Jengie
That is usually further behind the pulpit, behind what would be the rear wall of the santuary with an opening allowing visibility for the congregation.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The oldest pics of the church in our files show the window through to the old baptistry. The apse was filled with one or two chairs for the elders or choir. The pulpit, the one I still use, was front and centre where the middle step now is. There were divits in the carpet at main floor level about 30" in front of the pulpit from where the CoG communion table had been. They also had the Proddy potted plants on low stands on either side of the Table.
The water for the Baptismal tank was warmed using an ancient side arm heater, which I preserved because I like interesting lumps of cast iron.
I have always been told by the locals that the church was something before it was Hillside Church of God. I have never been able to figure out what but most of the older church buildings in town have changed hands. For example, the Methodist Episcopal Church North is now the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Old photographs show it as 'First Church of God' but that is the former owner's legal name as Hillside CoG is a DBA.
PD
[ 04. July 2013, 23:12: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have never been able to figure out what...
This calls for a title search. Surely you have a real estate professional in the congregation onto whom you can fob this job.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Low Church baptism in Anglican terms is a quick pour over the head whilst holding little Johnny or Jane over a bowl balanced on the communion rails or an old card table
Funny little tangent...a very old Episcopal church in this diocese (still open and restored, but the congregation has moved on) had a wealthy parishioner in the late-1800s who paid for an immersion font to be installed. It has been covered by a door--an actual wall-type of door with knob and everything--for over one hundred years. Word is that it was used once, and only once, for the baptism of the benefactor's child. Other than that feature, the church is very nosebleed in terms of 19th century America. It even has a tabernacle above the altar, which I have been told by several credible sources was fairly normal in this diocese at the time, but not so much elsewhere. The church is open for tours, and one of the most frequent questions asked is about the strange door in the floor.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I had another poke around at church this morning, and reached some conclusions on what needs to be done fairly urgently.
I had a squint under the stage and behind the scenes in the sacristies which proved interesting. The plasterboard is in place and the original coving is in position, but the joints were not finished, neither was wallpaper or paint applied. It looks as though they changed their minds late in construction on how to configure the stage area!
Interim Solution
Anyway, back to what I would like to do over the next six months.
(1) Lift that damn carpet. There is a hardwood floor underneath in good nick.
(2) Remove the soffit, curtain rail from in front of the altar. Reposition light fittings to give better light in the sanctuary area.
(2b) Continue coving around the apse to tie it into the nave visually.
(2c) I am still toying with the idea of some sort of procenium arch, but have not reached a decision.
(3) Eliminate all furniture in the sanctuary except for altar, bishop's chair, and credence table. Inevitably there will be the two standards and the flowerstands in there. Wish I could loose the flowerstands, but they are a 'fortieth Article' issue.
(4) I have removed the icons from either side of the altar, and anyhing else hung on the walls from the apse.
(5) Place the lectern and pulpit on the lower level towards the middle of each block of pews - rough a quarter, and three quarters of the way aross the building. Extend lower step our to site of communion rail to provide a raised base to the lectern, pulpit ministers seats, etc.
(6) The ministers seats are now on the lower level on the Epistle side handy for the lectern.
Problem not solved yet:
The Tabernacle. Currently on the side altar which wedged against the flat wall better the procenium and the side wall of the church on the gospel side. Perhaps some sort of a stand would be better, or even the traditional RC placement on the high altar. Not sure I want the 'Big Six' though, which I regard as part and parcel of that sort of set up.
So far I seem to have managed to reduce the number of visually distracting elements up top, but mainly by shifting them down below. Once the new altar rails are in, the pew fronts will return to being pew fronts and the front, unpadded pews will be removed.
PD
[ 06. July 2013, 00:16: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
So far I seem to have managed to reduce the number of visually distracting elements up top, but mainly by shifting them down below. Once the new altar rails are in, the pew fronts will return to being pew fronts and the front, unpadded pews will be removed.
We'll be needing photos, of course.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Of course!
I am trying to remember if any of my MOTR-High colleagues have been able to do something with a similarly unpromising interior. The closest Church to ours in layout and churchmanship is St Jude's Anglican Church, Tucson, so it might be worth me revisiting what they did with their place.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
The low ceiling is the most frustrating aspect of this church interior, and also the most difficult to change. You are definitely on the right track in moving the pulpit, lectern, and clergy seats so that they do not crowd the altar. The 1970's mania for separating the altar and tabernacle has run its course. In a small church, it well-nigh impossible to find a location apart from the high altar which has the requisite dignity and prominence.
The low ceiling does make it more difficult to accommodate a central tabernacle and a crucifix, but the "liturgical altars" of the 1920's and 30's offer a helpful precedent. Gradines were swept away; the tabernacle and candlesticks stood directly on the mensa. The depth of the mensa was correspondingly increased from the 21 inches or so necessary for the corporal to about 30 inches. Setting the candles at a lower level will make the ceiling appear higher. Do not worry in the slightest if the tabernacle or the candles extend in front of the wall-mounted cross. Such visual overlapping creates an illusion of greater depth, which is particularly desirable in a shallow chancel.
As for the number of candles on the altar, it is partly a matter of choosing which tradition to follow. The Counter-Reformation made six candles obligatory for altars at which the Blessed Sacrament was reserved, but earlier usage was more varied, and Sir Ninian Comper advocated using two candles at Anglican altars. If one concentrates on the visual effect, however, six tall candlesticks would provide a series of strong verticals to counteract the horizontal proportions of the apse. (Sargent's mural of the Mater Dolorosa in the Boston Public Library is a striking example of this effect.)
Because the architectural setting is undistinguished, I concur with the suggestion that you concentrate on improving the liturgical furnishings. If you do eventually have an opportunity to modify the wall and ceiling colors, I would suggest an enveloping warm medium gray or other neutral shade. White is utterly unforgiving; it makes any flaws in the setting, the furnishings, and the lighting painfully apparent. A deep neutral will make the walls and ceiling appear to recede, but it will not compete with the liturgical colors of the vestments and altar frontals.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
I remember when the (Roman Catholic) parish of my childhood finally built the permanent church. Its tabernacle was off to the liturgical north of the altar area. So not only was it weird to see Monsignor glide with his accustomed focus and dignity up the aisle to the boom-de-boom of a lousy drum set and out-of-tune guitars, but it was also weird to see him and his servers turn 45 degrees left to genuflect before turning back and mounting the steps to the altar.
Where I am now has the tabernacle front and center in the high altar under a proper marble whatsit. Big six and two angels. Genuflexions straight ahead east.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
If one concentrates on the visual effect, however, six tall candlesticks would provide a series of strong verticals to counteract the horizontal proportions of the apse. (Sargent's mural of the Mater Dolorosa in the Boston Public Library is a striking example of this effect.)
There, FTFY, in the nicest possible way.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
(2) Remove the soffit, curtain rail from in front of the altar. Reposition light fittings to give better light in the sanctuary area.
Can you get rid of that ceiling fan - it's a disaster with low ceilings. Replace it with one or more "whole house" style fans recessed into the ceiling to extract hot air to the loft space.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I take the point about needing some strong verticals. Having spent the last twenty years advocating the English Use, I am a bit reluctant to dress the church up the Big Six and all that. Therefore I am wondering if subdividing the accent wall behind the altar into three or five vertical panels would do the trick. There are usually two tall candlesticks on the altar which seems to bring a welcome vertical into the sanctuary.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
... For example, the Methodist Episcopal Church North is now the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. ...
That's quite a combination. Does it have ikons of John Knox? Are its ministers resolutely bearded? Does it forbid the celebration of Christmas irrespective of whether on the 25th December or when everyone else thinks it is the first week in January? Does it believe in the total depravity of all those who cross themselves in the wrong way?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I'm sure there is some obvious reason this is not possible, but why couldn't you deal with the low ceiling by removing it and having the exposed roof beams?
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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