homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Drowning the old Adam (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Drowning the old Adam
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've heard of several instances of that happening, SvitlanaV2. I'm not sure how common or uncommon it is but it does happen.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I also knew a girl whose father was an Anglican vicar. Just before he retired he made a big show of having a baptistery towed into his church so he could be baptised in it by full immersion in front of his congregation.

At the time, as an earnest young evangelical in a charismatic credo-baptist church, I thought that was great ...

Now I think, 'Well, if he was that convinced about it why didn't he do it earlier instead of waiting for his pension?'

I think there are quite a few vicars who would be a lot happier as Baptists or as Vineyard pastors. Not mentioning any names of course ... [Devil]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
After the service, as she was leaving one elderly lady said to me 'well the devil certainly came out of that little boy!' I'd never come across this idea before, I have to say, anyone else come across it before?

Oh yes. My infant son screamed with all his might when the water hit his head. The priest looked up at the (standing-room-only) congregation and said, "That's the devil coming out."
At his (infant)baptism, Neph reached down mid-sprinkle and started playing with the water. Any mythos surrounding that? [Big Grin]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Immersion seems to be going on at this Latin cathedral in Seattle.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When did full immersion become a usual practice for adults in paedobaptist churches? In the past there would have been very few adult baptisms in England, but there would have been some. I'm thinking of the 18th and 19th centuries, when some Quakers would have chosen to be received into the CofE, and foreigners from, say, the East or West Indies who wanted (or whose white employers or partners wanted them) to become Anglican Christians. Was the CofE conducting full immersion at that time, or is this something that grew out of evangelical sectarian influence later on? Did American Episcopalians baptise adults in rivers, or wasn't that their thing?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

 - Posted      Profile for Adam.   Author's homepage   Email Adam.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know about Anglicans, but for Latin Rite Catholics it was part of the ressourcement that accompanied the Second Vatican Council.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653

 - Posted      Profile for sonata3   Author's homepage   Email sonata3   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At this Catholic cathedral, both adult and infant baptisms are often by immersion.

http://cathedralofsaintandrew.org/sacramental-life/baptism-infant-child

An infant baptism by immersion was described in MW report 2282 (2011).

--------------------
"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim

Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was baptized as an infant by a Presbyterian minister (it was a university chaplaincy). When I came back to Christianity, having never been baptized besides as an infant, my CofE evangelical parish offered a reaffirmation of baptismal vows with immersion. There were 4 others done the same day as mine and a few were done at Easter as well.

Within evangelical parishes this is becoming increasingly common, especially with many people who were baptized as infants for tradition reasons but weren't raised in Christian homes. Additionally I haven't seen a single infant baptism in the two evangelical parishes that I frequent - everyone does a dedication/thanksgiving with the child to choose later whether or not to be baptized.

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our evangelical parish does do infant baptisms, lots of them. But the very few thanksgivings/dedications I've seen have been for children of church members, who are perhaps unsure about infant baptism. Walk-ins want the real thing (even if they call it "christening" and aren't sure what its for).

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Immersion seems to be going on at this Latin cathedral in Seattle.

Looks more like a sort of total environment infusion to me, kneeling in water for a sprinkling of water.

If being baptised in immersion in a white robe by the way, please wear appropriate underwear. My girlfriend in 1979 didn't, and produced several gasps as she immersed and then emerged in love heart underwear (lower half) and, er, wet tee shirt look (top half). It was the sauciest I ever saw her, alas.

[ 24. July 2013, 12:23: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Immersion seems to be going on at this Latin cathedral in Seattle.

Looks more like a sort of total environment infusion to me, kneeling in water for a sprinkling of water.

If being baptised in immersion in a white robe by the way, please wear appropriate underwear. My girlfriend in 1979 didn't, and produced several gasps as she immersed and then emerged in love heart underwear (lower half) and, er, wet tee shirt look (top half). It was the sauciest I ever saw her, alas.

I was terrified of that and so wore baggy black clothes from head to toe. There was still quite a bit of cling though!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

Does anyone know when it started to die out in the CofE? The Victorian Revival parishes seem to go in for big fonts but that might just be mediaeval-aping.

Interestingly in St Mary Redcliffe there are 3 fonts. THe Church's oringinal font which is big enough to dunk a baby, a 15th centruy font originally from the mother church of St John Bedminster, which is about a foot across and would be hard for dunking to occur and the Paty font, an 18th (?) Marble font that is smaller still. NOt that any of them are generally used for baptisms, which usually happen with a silver rose bowl and silver 'shell' on the chancel step, though one recent baptism family did ask for the original font to be sued as one parent had been baptised in it. DOn't think dunking was involved though..

CArys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
one recent baptism family did ask for the original font to be sued as one parent had been baptised in it.

Leading to a dangerous attack of Christianity? Got to be careful with these Health n Safety laws.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

 - Posted      Profile for seasick   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

Does anyone know when it started to die out in the CofE? The Victorian Revival parishes seem to go in for big fonts but that might just be mediaeval-aping.

Interestingly in St Mary Redcliffe there are 3 fonts. THe Church's oringinal font which is big enough to dunk a baby, a 15th centruy font originally from the mother church of St John Bedminster, which is about a foot across and would be hard for dunking to occur and the Paty font, an 18th (?) Marble font that is smaller still. NOt that any of them are generally used for baptisms, which usually happen with a silver rose bowl and silver 'shell' on the chancel step, though one recent baptism family did ask for the original font to be sued as one parent had been baptised in it. DOn't think dunking was involved though..

CArys

My grandfather was reportedly baptised in St Mary Redcliffe - I've no idea which font though!

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Our evangelical parish does do infant baptisms, lots of them. But the very few thanksgivings/dedications I've seen have been for children of church members, who are perhaps unsure about infant baptism. Walk-ins want the real thing (even if they call it "christening" and aren't sure what its for).

Christening is just the Anglo-Saxon version of baptism - both mean the same thing and both are perfectly appropriate.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, but in reality Christening is the folk-religion term for Baptism which generally means "the religious precursor to a party in which a bumbling Vicar does some magic and makes us say stuff we don't believe".

[ 25. July 2013, 08:16: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Yes, but in reality Christening is the folk-religion term for Baptism which generally means "the religious precursor to a party in which a bumbling Vicar does some magic and makes us say stuff we don't believe".

By the same token, 'Believer's Baptism' is the folk-religion term which generally means 'the religious ceremony in which we demonstrate our profound desire to take credit for the ineffable God-given saving grace that is faith.' And then have a party, with Shloer.

[ 25. July 2013, 08:59: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Killing me] [Overused]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404

 - Posted      Profile for Ahleal V     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
And then have a party, with Shloer.

And quiche! Don't forget the quiche!

x

AV

[ 25. July 2013, 10:05: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Yes, but in reality Christening is the folk-religion term for Baptism which generally means "the religious precursor to a party in which a bumbling Vicar does some magic and makes us say stuff we don't believe".

By the same token, 'Believer's Baptism' is the folk-religion term which generally means 'the religious ceremony in which we demonstrate our profound desire to take credit for the ineffable God-given saving grace that is faith.' And then have a party, with Shloer.
[Killing me] [Overused]

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
one recent baptism family did ask for the original font to be sued as one parent had been baptised in it.

Leading to a dangerous attack of Christianity? Got to be careful with these Health n Safety laws.
Oops, I can't type!, used not sued.

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
My grandfather was reportedly baptised in St Mary Redcliffe - I've no idea which font though!

Probably the original one, that's what the 80 year olds in our congregation who've been here all their life claim, not sure about the 95yr old. Rose bowl at the front is about people being able to see, though apparently gathered round the font at the back worked well.

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ho ho ... It's interesting that many Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed and other full-on Reformed groups wouldn't necessarily see credo-baptists as fully Reformed, nor would they necessarily regard Baptist or baptistic churches as 'visible churches' either ...

I like to wind my Reformed Baptist friends up with that observation ...

[Razz]

As for myself, I'm, as usual, in a quandary with this one as I can see some mileage in daronmedway's objection to the practice of paedo-baptism for what Ken calls' 'walk-ins'.

Fr Gregory of blessed, or not so blessed Shipside memory, used to feel the same when he was an Anglican cleric. For what it's worth, he feels that his current setting allows him to baptise infants in all good conscience as he will only do so if one or t'other of the parents are Orthodox.

How that would apply in an ethnically Orthodox country where infant baptism would be fairly indiscriminate irrespective of whether the parents were 'faithful' or not, I don't know.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps the whole point of non-church families having their babies christened/baptised is that it means they've 'done' religion, and needn't give it much further thought. If they only have a thanksgiving service then it still leaves the religious matter unresolved, which isn't what they want.

But I still don't know when the CofE started offering baptism by immersion for adults. Do the older ones among you remember this happening in the 40s or 50s? Do your parents or grandparents remember this happening? And when did 'reaffirmation of baptismal vows by immersion' begin to happen?

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Remind me, Svitlana2, which denomination are you actually a member of?
This seems a bit of an off-kilter academic speculation. As a practising member of the Church of England and a priest, I can tell you that in my experience of ministry--and in my experience as a parent and a Christian--you are, to a very great degree, mistaken.

[ 26. July 2013, 08:56: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Yes, but in reality Christening is the folk-religion term for Baptism which generally means "the religious precursor to a party in which a bumbling Vicar does some magic and makes us say stuff we don't believe".

By the same token, 'Believer's Baptism' is the folk-religion term which generally means 'the religious ceremony in which we demonstrate our profound desire to take credit for the ineffable God-given saving grace that is faith.' And then have a party, with Shloer.
That's certainly true of Arminian credo-baptists. Not so much the Reformed Credo-baptists who are generally careful to ensure that testimonies given at baptism services are about Jesus for about 5 minutes, not about your life-story and your "decision for Christ". As for Shloer, I like Shloer. But it's even better with a shot of vodka.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
AngloCatholicGirl
Shipmate
# 16435

 - Posted      Profile for AngloCatholicGirl   Email AngloCatholicGirl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

As for myself, I'm, as usual, in a quandary with this one as I can see some mileage in daronmedway's objection to the practice of paedo-baptism for what Ken calls 'walk ins'.

I confess that this was a big issue for me prior to my ordination and something that I still struggle with, but I have found some positives with 'walk ins', namely that it gets people over the psychological barrier of walking through the church door into a service and I find it encourages a sense of belonging. It's not ideal, but I get the opportunity to sit down with the parents and Godparents and talk about the Gospels and why we baptize, an opportunity I wouldn't otherwise have had.

It's also a good lesson for me in trusting in God, that no matter how much the parents see baptism as just 'getting the baby done' He is there, meeting the family round the font.

--------------------
Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson

Posts: 75 | From: Now from across the pond | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged
ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621

 - Posted      Profile for ORGANMEISTER         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well said, Amos.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

 - Posted      Profile for MrsBeaky   Author's homepage   Email MrsBeaky   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl
quote:
It's also a good lesson for me in trusting in God, that no matter how much the parents see baptism as just 'getting the baby done' He is there, meeting the family round the font.
My son-in-law is an Anglican priest and during his curacy he also worked as a prison chaplain. He was amazed at how many of the prisoners who expressed an interest in matters spiritual and especially those who went on to make some kind of Christian commitment had been baptised as a baby in a family of non-churchgoers. His conclusion was that as you say, God was indeed meeting the child and the family and continued to do so throughout those men's lives all the way into their prison sentences!
He too will happily baptise any child brought to him and perhaps true to his Greek orthodox roots recommends full immersion. My little grandson was duly immersed earlier this year.

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574

 - Posted      Profile for Ad Orientem     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My opinion is that if it can be discerned that there is no intention of bringing the child up in the faith then it is better not to baptise. If any intention cannot be discerned either way then the benefit of the doubt should be given. At least that's the practice here in Finland in the Orthodox Church, but then one of the parents must already be Orthodox and solemnly pledge to bring the child up in the Orthodox faith.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That cuts both ways, of course, Mrs Beaky. I'm sure if you took a cross-section of the population - not just people in prison - then you'd find a substantial proportion of them had been baptised as infants in non-church going families, particularly the older they are.

I'm not sure it either strengthens nor weakens the case. After all, Hitler was baptised as an infant, so was Stalin.

@daronmedway, as you are no doubt readily aware, some paedobaptist Reformed types wouldn't recognise credo-baptist Reformed types as even being Reformed in the first place ...

[Biased] [Razz]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Remind me, Svitlana2, which denomination are you actually a member of?
This seems a bit of an off-kilter academic speculation. As a practising member of the Church of England and a priest, I can tell you that in my experience of ministry--and in my experience as a parent and a Christian--you are, to a very great degree, mistaken.

I presume you're referring to what I said about infant baptism.

I'm a Methodist. My comment wasn't about what clergymen believe, but about what non-church families presenting children for baptism might believe. (I probably did read something along these lines in an academic book somewhere.)

The point of baptism for most people clearly isn't that their child will eventually 'enter into the full membership of the church' as the Methodist liturgy says. If that's what parents hoped for then they'd bring their families to church more often. But they may well feel that the act of baptism brings the child into a spiritual orbit of some kind. I know that some people see it as way of bringing God's protective blessing upon the child.

What's your experience? What do you think is really going on?

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


The point of baptism for most people clearly isn't that their child will eventually 'enter into the full membership of the church' as the Methodist liturgy says. If that's what parents hoped for then they'd bring their families to church more often.

Maybe. Or maybe they have in their wisdom concluded that the best way to ensure their child doesn't enter into full membership of the church would be to drag them there every Sunday.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
By the same token, 'Believer's Baptism' is the folk-religion term which generally means 'the religious ceremony in which we demonstrate our profound desire to take credit for the ineffable God-given saving grace that is faith.' And then have a party.

That's certainly true of Arminian credo-baptists. Not so much the Reformed Credo-baptists who are generally careful to ensure that testimonies given at baptism services are about Jesus for about 5 minutes, not about your life-story and your "decision for Christ".
Ah, but the bit before they became a Christian is much more interesting than what happened afterwards ...!

Actually I haven't heard any of these testimonies recently - are they a dying breed?

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


The point of baptism for most people clearly isn't that their child will eventually 'enter into the full membership of the church' as the Methodist liturgy says. If that's what parents hoped for then they'd bring their families to church more often.

Maybe. Or maybe they have in their wisdom concluded that the best way to ensure their child doesn't enter into full membership of the church would be to drag them there every Sunday.
Well, in your case you may have definite proof of that, but most parents don't stick around long enough to find that this is a problem!

Statistically, the children of non-churchgoing parents are less likely to get involved in the life of the church than the children of churchgoing parents. This isn't always so, I'm an example of that. There are people who are converted later in life. But I don't think many parents in British society are likely to be committed to pursuing a systematic, home-based spiritual life that's likely to influence their children to join the church later. This might have happened in the past, when non-churchgoers might have read their Bibles and said their prayers before the fire. But what sign is there that this culture has any resonance today? Not much.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

 - Posted      Profile for MrsBeaky   Author's homepage   Email MrsBeaky   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Gamaliel
quote:
I'm not sure it either strengthens nor weakens the case. After all, Hitler was baptised as an infant, so was Stalin.
Blimey, now that's some advertisement for infant baptism!

I'm fairly sure my son-in-law maintains that large numbers of people (not just those in the prison) he has met since being a priest were baptised as infants,left church and then returned to faith/ church as adults. He is quite Orthodox in his theology and he sees a correlation between their baptism and their adult faith.
Who knows? I certainly don't!

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Neither do I, Mrs Beaky. He may well be right, I don't know.

We didn't have our two christened/baptised as infants as we were firmly in a credo-baptist setting at that time. But we did have them 'dedicated' but as to whether or not that 'does' anything, I have no idea. Neither has any particular interest in attending church or engaging with the faith in any meaningful way - although they do have a residual respect for Christian beliefs.

Mind you, we've all heard, I'm sure, the old joke about the Churches Together meeting where the clergy discover that they all have a problem with bats in their buildings.

The Anglican vicar says, 'Well we decided to ring the bells very loudly and incessantly one weekend and that seems to have driven them away.'

The Methodist minister says, 'We're trying to trap them humanely and release them elsewhere but it's taking a long time ...'

The Catholic priest says, 'Well, I baptised ours and I've not seen any of them since ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I work on the assumption that generally speaking, people bring their children to be baptised because God is at work in their lives. We've found, in every church at which I have served since my ordination, that, as we take people seriously and treat them with dignity, they tend to respond in faith. Our churches prepare families to support the Christian life of the child who's being baptised. We teach parents to pray with their children and how to teach their children to pray, and we give them the resources to do it: books, grace-cubes, and a book of well-illustrated stories from the Bible. We emphasise the importance of Christian observance in the home as well as attendance at church. This places demands on the church as well as the baptismal family, and, frankly, that's good. The congregation comes to know the non-churchgoing families who bring their children for baptism. This breaks down the sense in the church that people who don't come aren't Christian, and the sense in the parish that church attendance is reserved for the unco guid. Over a period of more than ten years, I have found that this works.
Only God can see the heart and the motivations of the heart. None of us fully understands what we're doing when we baptise or are baptised. I was baptised as an adult, after an adult conversion to Christ. My baptism wasn't in any way superior to that of the hundreds of babies and small children I've baptised in my churches.
I'm highly skeptical about a religious understanding like Svitlana2's, which seems to be entirely based upon statistics (generally dubious) and the footnotes of uncited academic papers, without any admixture of theology or experience. However if she were come, with or without an infant, to be prepared for baptism, I'd take her entirely seriously.

[ 27. July 2013, 07:05: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462

 - Posted      Profile for Sergius-Melli   Email Sergius-Melli   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
After the service, as she was leaving one elderly lady said to me 'well the devil certainly came out of that little boy!' I'd never come across this idea before, I have to say, anyone else come across it before?

Oh yes. My infant son screamed with all his might when the water hit his head. The priest looked up at the (standing-room-only) congregation and said, "That's the devil coming out."
Thanks, that's interesting to know it's found on the other side of the pond too. I don't know if I would say to the congregation during the actual baptism that that was the devil coming out. Out of curiosity Anna B were you ok with that?
Just to add to the topic of the devil being expelled at Baptism -

It was custom to call the north door of the Church where I was years back the devil's door, and that during Baptism it should be open so that the devil could leave the sacred ground, just wondering if others had come across this strange tale, or whether it was a completely crazy local thing...

quote:
Calling someone unbaptized a heretic is like calling a violin a shrunken viola.
Sorry I feel your analogy fails, violins are just shrunken Violas!

quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker The local CinW building here (mediaeval) has a 19th-century baptismal pool
One of the Churches in the my Parish has a pool. The Church building is Victorian rather than actually old, but I can't tell you when the pool was installed or last used, just that we have one in our CinW parish.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The association of the north door, and even the north side, of the church with the devil is an early mediaeval superstition--I don't think it's older than that. I'd guess that it's related to the custom of calling the candle on the north side of the altar the Gospel candle, and all the customs related to its lighting and extinguishing.

I was told that these customs/superstitions were all related to the fear of the Vikings in the early middle ages.

[ 27. July 2013, 08:29: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
...And I see that my view as to the connection of the North with the Heathens is confirmed by this link on teh internet:
http://liturgy.co.nz/anglican-communion-crisis/4761

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480

 - Posted      Profile for scuffleball   Email scuffleball   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Common Worship provides for an 'Affirmation of Baptismal Faith'. It has to be linked back to the original baptism, but seems from the commentary to be designed to meet those dilemmas. Has anyone ever seen it used?

I saw a renewal of vows in a charismatic church where it looked almost exactly like a baptism, we discussed it here:

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=70;t=021098

Posts: 272 | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:


quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker The local CinW building here (mediaeval) has a 19th-century baptismal pool
One of the Churches in the my Parish has a pool. The Church building is Victorian rather than actually old, but I can't tell you when the pool was installed or last used, just that we have one in our CinW parish.
Installed sometimes, I believe, to try to prevent parishioners from having recourse to the Baptists; although I don't know what the Church would have been done with would-be Baptists baptised in infancy, at that date.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Canon Gerald Luckett of Canterbury Diocese had, I am told a habit of installing baptismal pools in his churches, probably for this reason--this would have been in the first half of the twentieth century. I heard this from his son some years ago, who reported that one or two of them were still in existence. The Canon was, AFAICT, a Dearmerite.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The association of the north door, and even the north side, of the church with the devil is an early mediaeval superstition--I don't think it's older than that. I'd guess that it's related to the custom of calling the candle on the north side of the altar the Gospel candle, and all the customs related to its lighting and extinguishing.

I was told that these customs/superstitions were all related to the fear of the Vikings in the early middle ages.

IIRC, Milton has Lucifer drawing the fallen angels to the North to prepare for battle. The north is (in the northern hemisphere) Satan's own land, the land of deep darkness in winter and from which the severe cold comes. It is the land of the great unknown.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools