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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The collect - who should say/sing it?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think that is the real objection to congregational recitation of the collect of the day, because it is difficult to (a) get one's tongue around the words and phrasing; (b) think about the meaning, and (c) to pray them, at the same time.
Hang about! This sounds exactly wrong! Reading something aloud is a great help to understanding the meaning. Much better than just listening to someone else reading. It sort of forces you to engage with the words on a broader front. Opens up more channels into the brain. Absorbs more of your attention. Sitting back and listening works best for familiar texts, not unfamiliar ones - though even then I think its usually better to join in. Having the written words in front of you helps as well. Using eyes and ears and motuhs together reinforces the words, makes you think about them more.
Especially with mildly unfamiliar words like modern collects (in 1662 days I think most regulat worshippers started to recognise the Collects of the Day after a few years but the newer ones are both more varied and less rythmic and seem to make less impression.) Listening to completely unfamiliar words, where you don't know what to expect is one thing, you just have to listen (though even then reading at the same time helps) and if you don;t listen you know you haven't heard. Very familar texts are another thing, you can join in with your eyes shut ("Lighten our darkness we beseech thee...") But mildly unfamiliar ones (or mildly familiar, it comes to the same thing) can be traps because you think you knwo what you are hearing or saying and let it glide over you but actually you don't. Same works for a lot of Bible readings, especially the synoptic Gospels. There is stuff we know best from Matthew, or sometimes Luke, and then we read it from another book and think we've just heard what we thought we knew rather than what was actually read. Yet another reason for pew Bibles!
Also at least some of the liturgy is poetry (sort-of, kind-of) and the sound and rythmn of the words is part of the meaning of them and that is by far best appreciated by speaking or singing them yourself, not by hearing them.
So let the people read the words. And sing them!
[ 07. August 2013, 13:16: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
OK then. I find it difficult. I admit it is equally difficult to obey the invitation 'let us pray' if immediately I have to listen to, never mind join in, a spoken prayer. But there is nothing to stop you joining in silently or sotto voce if you have the text in front of you. What is a problem is ensuring that a group, reading words cold, will all speak at the same time or get the phrasing right. (If you saw Count Arthur Strong* last night, "It is beyond my area of expertise. I'm afraid!") A problem minimised with well-known texts designed to be recited communally.
*If you didn't, that makes no sense at all. I'm afraid,
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
The collect of of the day should be read by the celebrant and not be mumbled by all present for one simple reason: it is a variable element in the rite, and anyone who reads it must be looking at a book or a service leaflet. The congregation's spoken parts should be limited to those which can be done from memory.
The cost of books and less-than-universal literacy formerly made this liturgical principle self enforcing, but it has been undermined, first by the cheapness of printing and paper and more recently by the proliferation of projection screens.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I find it very helpful to have the words of the (variable) collects and also the readings written out. Sometimes the reader is softly spoken, other times you are just plain tired and find it hard to concentrate. So having the printed words there really helps me to focus.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
The collect of of the day should be read by the celebrant and not be mumbled by all present for one simple reason: it is a variable element in the rite, and anyone who reads it must be looking at a book or a service leaflet. The congregation's spoken parts should be limited to those which can be done from memory.
The cost of books and less-than-universal literacy formerly made this liturgical principle self enforcing, but it has been undermined, first by the cheapness of printing and paper and more recently by the proliferation of projection screens.
See, this is my line of thinking, too: liturgy isn't, or shouldn't be, about spending an hour on Sunday morning with your nose buried in a book. It should be seen as a good thing that the people's texts are simple enough to be known by heart - and, I think, there's a reason the word heart appears in that expression.
But when I give this opinion, people usually berate me or ignore me. On the plus side, they hardly ever throw rocks at me, because that's difficult on the internet.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I won't throw rocks at you, Adeodatus, even metaphorical ones. I agree with you. WholeHEARTedly.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
This was one of the principle points (yours, Adeodatus) that was drilled into me when I was studying liturgy. It's also why I hate it when people reading the lesson add 'You will find it on page whatever of your pew bible.'
[ 08. August 2013, 11:27: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
HEARTfelt thanks Adeodatus. Yes, liturgy should set you free from the book, so that you can worship.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
This was one of the principle points (yours, Adeodatus) that was drilled into me when I was studying liturgy. It's also why I hate it when people reading the lesson add 'You will find it on page whatever of your pew bible.'
That's one reason why I'm a stickler about following the Prayer Book's rubrics when announcing lessons. "The Epistle is written in the [nth] chapter of [X book], beginning at the [yth] verse." No additions, please.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Adeodatus has said it all.
I was on the consultation group for the new CW services at the right on incense fog bank that is pine marten's church, so I was a party to having the post communion prayer said by all.
It was a compromise. We (or at any rate the vicar with our support) considered one post communion prayer was quite enough. If we were going to choose one,it might as well be the variable one as more interesting. So the congregation no longer had a prayer at that point, so we thought we'd try them joining in. I'm not sure how many of them do though.
The collect, of course, was SUNG by the presiding priest.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
HEARTfelt thanks Adeodatus. Yes, liturgy should set you free from the book, so that you can worship.
But we worship with and in and through the words, and having the book in your had frees your mind to use the words.
And it makes it much easier to concentrate in the words. Helps stop the mind wander. Pretty much all the tiem your "inner voice" is saying something. If you are singing, or reading aloud, its usually saying the words you are saying or singing (not always, but usually). Similarly your eyes are going to be looking somewhere. if they are looking at a written copy of the words yiou are erding or saying they are less likely to be looking out of the window at the sky, or at the attractive young persons in the pew in front. Reading and singing at the same time is sort of "firing on both barrells".
If I'm reading a poem on a train (as I was earlier today) I'll keep my mouth shut for the benefit of the other passengers. But if I'm reading it alone at home I'll often read it out loud. And poetry works better out loud and the better the poetry the better it works. Also you get to see the structure of the text and the laguage better if you are saying it yourself than if you are reading it silently, and better if you are reading it yourself then if you are listenign to it being read.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Leaving that little virtual dead liturgical horse to one side (at an opera just because you follow the score, you don't have to sing along with the singers,) my pet peeve is priests who do not introduce the collect with "Let us pray" but saying "The collect for the Twelfth Sunday after Trinity".
Those of us who know what a collect and what the 12th Sunday after Trinity mean don't need to be told.
Those who don't know are going to be further confused.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I generally prefer not to get a running commentary from the Minister when I am in the pews. However, it is helpful to visitors to announce - at least in a 1928 PECUSA BCP service - the first page of the liturgy, where the Psalm(s) or Collect Epistle and Gospel are to be found, and how to get back to the first Canticle, or Creed.
In my old parish we had what was intended to be a user-friendly service booklet for the Eucharist, and the lessons went on the back of the noticesheet. To avoid having to give out page numbers, we used to give several members of the congregation the job of helping out any visitors who needed help following along. We usually found that folks who stick with it for a few weeks soon start joining in the liturgy provided one does not bugger around with the ordinary from week to week. My present parish is absolutely adverse to booklets thanks to a priest who played with the liturgy a lot, so it is a little tougher getting new folks into the swing of things.
PD
[ 13. August 2013, 20:46: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
I've recently moved and encountered this practice. I'm not too bothered by it personally, although I would rather they used the space on the dead tree sheet for the hymn numbers and telling us what will be read at Evensong (rather than relying on people having downloaded the lectionary to their smart-phones, one presumes...).
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
reducing the slaughter of trees to just the weekly notices with the scripture readings in invisible to the middle aged eye 8-point type!
What's wrong with providing pew Bibles? The only reasons I can see for printing the readings on a sheet of paper are:
1) that people are so Bible-illiterate that they can't find the table of contents;
2) that the main service lectionary butchers some lessons so badly (usually in a misguided attempt at brevity, rather than being content-based censorship) that it is fairly hard-going on the reader to identify where his reading next begins to skip; or:
3) that the place is being run as a tourist attraction, rather than a house of worship, and the powers that be are so paranoid about visitors helping themselves to souvenirs that they would rather break with the situation that has existed since the time of Elizabeth I that every church should have a copy of the Bible in English (cough, Canterbury Cathedral, cough).
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
This was one of the principle points (yours, Adeodatus) that was drilled into me when I was studying liturgy. It's also why I hate it when people reading the lesson add 'You will find it on page whatever of your pew bible.'
That's one reason why I'm a stickler about following the Prayer Book's rubrics when announcing lessons. "The Epistle is written in the [nth] chapter of [X book], beginning at the [yth] verse." No additions, please.
I am minded to agree, but I think throwing out page numbers a lesser evil than printing excerpts without any indication of where the lectionary has been leaving bits out.
quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Although this Sunday the archdeacon, who is a better liturgist, stymied them by singing the collect. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Doesn't that risk intoning "The Lord be with you" and getting silence in return? (I know one priest who got that when singing the Exultet one Easter Vigil!)
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
Saying 'let us pray' is insufficient if the congregation have been lead to believe that 'let us pray' means 'please sit down'.
I blame bad kneeling cushions.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
This might be a tangent, but one of my friends was given 25c as a boy every Sunday if he were able to learn by heart and recite the day's collect before the family set off to service. He told me that he kept up the practice even during his post-confirmation atheist phase as a useful source of adolescent revenue. He told me that they came back to him, in order of the liturgical year, when he was recuperating from an unpleasant operation, and needed a focus away from his discomfort.
I'm sure I'm far from alone in only being able to do that with the Collect for the 21st Sunday after Trinity...
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
at daily mass with no choir, the people there who know their parts well couldn't start the Memorial Acclamation on their own as they don't know which is to be used
The C of E gets round this one by having a different introduction to each of the acclamations. Though being the C of E of course people will need to have their heads buried in the book to find it which rather defeats the object.
Somehow I find these naffer than saying the Collect collectively. The only one that doesn't seem to be double-underline-this-is-the-magic-moment is the one that doesn't say "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" (and according to Common Worship can't be put into traditional language ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ).
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
We say "Almighty God, we thank thee for feeding us..." congregationally through the year after the celebrant has sung the post-communion prayer. We say "Father of all..." in Eastertide and I'd guess that maybe 10% bother to join in. (Which drives me absolutely potty, for the record.)
Thurible
I'm actually surprised that in England the priest starting "Almighty and Everlasting God, we thank thee for the spiritual food..." and the congregation joining in at "Wherefore we offer and present unto thee, O Lord..." (it appears to be online here) doesn't seem to be an option.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Adeodatus has said it all.
I was on the consultation group for the new CW services at the right on incense fog bank that is pine marten's church, so I was a party to having the post communion prayer said by all.
It was a compromise. We (or at any rate the vicar with our support) considered one post communion prayer was quite enough. If we were going to choose one,it might as well be the variable one as more interesting. So the congregation no longer had a prayer at that point, so we thought we'd try them joining in. I'm not sure how many of them do though.
The collect, of course, was SUNG by the presiding priest.
In terms of the post-communion prayers from CW, I always say that prayer alone after a good period of silence. I see it as a bit of lottery actually, because I find the theology of some of these prayers slightly objectionable. The congregation then prays one of the two set post communion prayers from CW Order 1.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You find the theology of some of these collects somewhat objectionable?
Now why doesn't that surprise me? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Daronmedway knows best.
I don't know why daronmedway doesn't become a Vineyard pastor or an independent evangelical minister, FIEC or something. Then he could be even more of his own Pope ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
... I'm actually surprised that in England the priest starting "Almighty and Everlasting God, we thank thee for the spiritual food..." and the congregation joining in at "Wherefore we offer and present unto thee, O Lord..." (it appears to be online here) doesn't seem to be an option.
Is that a strictly CinW prayer? There are many different permutations in Common Worship, but I don't think that's one of them. It seems to be a conflation of ingredients from the two alternative prayers in the 1662 BCP, and then altered a bit.
Perhaps one of the many experts on the Ship could advise?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You find the theology of some of these collects somewhat objectionable?
Now why doesn't that surprise me?
daronmedway knows best.
I don't know why daronmedway doesn't become a Vineyard pastor or an independent evangelical minister, FIEC or something. Then he could be even more of his own Pope.
Well, I still read them, Gamaliel, precisely because I trust that they are written the edification of the church. I neither insist nor expect the people I pastor to entirely agree with my personal theological convictions. However, if asked I would happily explain why some of the post communion prayers don't float my boat.
Also I have to say that on this occasion, despite the smileys, I find your tone slightly insulting.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In the Anglican Church of Canada, I've never been to a church where the collect was not said by everyone, with the priest invariably saying, "the collect for today is printed in the bulletin (leaflet)" or referencing the page in the prayer book. There is a pause, and then a "let us pray", and together we indeed pray.
I do not understand the objection to a corporate prayer being uttered together. The difference between places perhaps merely being local custom.
Reference was made also to the Collect for Purity. This is also always said by all.
One issue I think, is whether liturgy is performance or participatory art. I think it is both. We can approach God through beauty in multiple ways.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - I've been grouchy on the Ship for a few days now and have been grouchy to others too. So point taken and I apologise for the insulting tone, daronmedway.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I do not understand the objection to a corporate prayer being uttered together.
It is not a 'corporate' prayer but a presidential one.
I don't have a strong view on this, and it's something I don't think I've ever encountered. However, if it's a presidential function, and the President invites us to join him or her, wouldn't that mean we are obliged to do so?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Well, I still read them, Gamaliel, precisely because I trust that they are written the edification of the church. I neither insist nor expect the people I pastor to entirely agree with my personal theological convictions. However, if asked I would happily explain why some of the post communion prayers don't float my boat.
Respect to daronmedway for subordinating his theological preferences to the wider church. Would that all priests (from every part of the spectrum) would do that. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I do not understand the objection to a corporate prayer being uttered together.
It is not a 'corporate' prayer but a presidential one.
I don't have a strong view on this, and it's something I don't think I've ever encountered. However, if it's a presidential function, and the President invites us to join him or her, wouldn't that mean we are obliged to do so?
I know the liturgy by memory. So I decided to have a look at the actual text of the BAS (Book of Alternative Services, the prayer book in most common general usage in Canada). The Collect for Purity is to be said by all, with the opening phrase as the into, all together following.
The Collect for the Day indeed is said to only require our "amen". Practice departs from the directive evidently.
The idea of "presidential" or presiding (which is the root I presume?) doing things which the community observes or has limited to no role in, is interesting, as there is a continuing shift in liturgical practice.
We had the altar/table at the front, behind communion rail, with the rail closed up for communion etc. There was a shift to move the table forward, almost to first pews, with the idea that we should do "this' (as in eucharist) in the midst of the people. Similarly, the gospel (and somewhat inconsistently the other readings) have been done by coming down from a lectern and moving between the rows of pews, about 1/4 of the way down. The gospel then being also in the midst.
I don't think we're having directives about this, as I don't recall any to do or not do, but I'm just a lay member. It does signify something I think. Much as the change that had the priest face the congregation rather than the front of the church, which was a directive.
I suspect some of our regional differences have some role. Certainly less than half of our congregation was raised Anglican, and there being a general informality of our society here compared to most other places I've visited.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Bosch Peters (who tweets as @liturgy) has blogged on this recently. He does not approve
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
For which Fr Bosco should be canonized: a voice of sanity amidst the passion for dull collective mumble-thons
He is fortunate not to have experienced the corporate reading of scripture. It was an annoying practice employed by some of my church's lectors in years past, mostly to take the pressure off themselves. It is a practice long since forgotten, and good riddance.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I do not understand the objection to a corporate prayer being uttered together.
It is not a 'corporate' prayer but a presidential one.
I don't have a strong view on this, and it's something I don't think I've ever encountered. However, if it's a presidential function, and the President invites us to join him or her, wouldn't that mean we are obliged to do so?
No. The president's job is to preside, not to govern. The president is a servant of the liturgy, not its director.
The laity have the right to demand the president play his or her part obediently.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Since there is nothing commanding nor forbidding the congregation saying the collect in the Bible, I say why not?
Besides, have you noticed in most contemporary liturgies it is now called the prayer of the day?
I see the prayer of the day as an introduction to the lessons of the day. It focuses the congregation on the theme of the lessons they are about to hear.
Someone upthread claimed that clergy do not get much training in the liturgy. I politely disagree. I remember when we were working through the common mass our instructor told us to wait a half minute before saying the prayer of the day. He said he was told to wait a full minute. Today when I am the liturgist I will usually pause for about fifteen seconds. I will also put other pauses in the liturgy when I can. I find silence is a very important part of the service if done properly.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Since there is nothing commanding nor forbidding the congregation saying the collect in the Bible, I say why not?
There's nothing in the Bible to tell you whether to butter your toast with a knife or a soup spoon, either. But I bet you use a knife, on the grounds that it's a great deal more effective.
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
At our place praying the collect used to be the task of the assisting minister, and the post-Communion prayer the task of the presiding minister, but one Sunday I showed up to discover that the congregation was now being directed to pray these as well. Our worship committee relies heavily on our denominational "Sundays and Seasons" resource -- they, and the pastor, don't tinker with the liturgy themselves, as a rule -- so I'll blame the Home Office...which often comes up with really ill-thought liturgical innovations.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Sundays and Seasons (the book) doesn't specify. ELW assigns the Prayer of the Day to the presiding minister, and the Prayer after Communion to the assisting minister. That said, as you know, every ELCA church is going to do whatever it wants.
As for the use of the term "Prayer of the Day," I'm afraid it doesn't extend very far outside the ELCA. The Catholics have even reverted from their older "Opening Prayer" to "Collect." I certainly don't object to "Prayer of the Day," but it certainly hasn't spread to most contemporary liturgies, especially with denoms that actually use preprinted prayers regularly.
[And if we're relying on the Bible for liturgical rubrics now, then I propose no sermon be allowed that is longer than the Sermon on the Mount. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
It's not so much that I care if the prayer is read collectively, but...they're (the mysterious, anonymous "they're") constantly tinkering with the liturgy without explanation and without obvious cause.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I feel your pain. It's certainly a reason I became one of "them."
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If I'm reading a poem on a train (as I was earlier today) I'll keep my mouth shut for the benefit of the other passengers. But if I'm reading it alone at home I'll often read it out loud. And poetry works better out loud and the better the poetry the better it works.
But poetry known by heart is better still. Would you expect to see Shakespearean actors reading from the text on stage? Would it be normal (apart from a few avid students) to see the audience reading from the text?
The liturgy is the Gesamtkunstwerk (total work of art) of the Church: text, speech, song, music, movement, costume, light, architecture, design. It's proclamation and celebration. It's proletarian, communitarian, KingdomofGodarian. It's death, judgement, heaven and hell. It's a wedding banquet and manna in the wilderness. It transcends the books it's written in like a great opera performance transcends the printed score that sits on your bookshelf.
And it does not belong to the clergy, to tamper with and tinker with as they please. It is the story and the drama of God's holy people, and it belongs only to them and to Him.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Surely the story and drama of God's people is the gospel of grace itself? Liturgy is merely a means (albeit an especially effective means) at communicating that gospel among a host of other means of communication.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Bosch Peters (who tweets as @liturgy) has blogged on this recently. He does not approve
Carys
I tried for a second time today to access this blog link. It doesn't load.
quote:
This web page is not available because liturgy.co.nz took too long to respond. The website may be down or you may be experiencing issues with your Internet connection.
No issues with internet connections, regular high speed at home, high speed T2 at work with fixed IP. What does the blog say, and is it reposted elsewhere on the 'net?
The general website and the specific link to the blog post don't load.
[ 19. August 2013, 14:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely the story and drama of God's people is the gospel of grace itself? Liturgy is merely a means (albeit an especially effective means) at communicating that gospel among a host of other means of communication.
But the gospel is, or should be, embodied in the liturgy, and by no means only in the written text. I think it's arguable that the primary mode in which the gospel can be found in the liturgy is in the sacramental presence of Christ himself.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely the story and drama of God's people is the gospel of grace itself? Liturgy is merely a means (albeit an especially effective means) at communicating that gospel among a host of other means of communication.
But the gospel is, or should be, embodied in the liturgy, and by no means only in the written text. I think it's arguable that the primary mode in which the gospel can be found in the liturgy is in the sacramental presence of Christ himself.
I agree, with reservations. I too believe that Christ's presence is vital to true worship. Enjoying the manifest presence of God is, I believe, one of the marks of true worship. However, while agreeing that Christ is particularly and specially present in the sacrament of the table, I would also suggest that his immediate and supernatural presence by his Holy Spirit is prior to his sacramental presence and is not tied to or contingent upon sacramental a element to the worship.
[ 19. August 2013, 17:03: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Bosch Peters (who tweets as @liturgy) has blogged on this recently. He does not approve
Carys
I tried for a second time today to access this blog link. It doesn't load.
quote:
This web page is not available because liturgy.co.nz took too long to respond. The website may be down or you may be experiencing issues with your Internet connection.
No issues with internet connections, regular high speed at home, high speed T2 at work with fixed IP. What does the blog say, and is it reposted elsewhere on the 'net?
The general website and the specific link to the blog post don't load.
Interesting a couple of people have reported a similar problem via Twitter, but others say it works for them as it does for me.
Basically don't do it. Unrehearsed choral speaking leads to bland rendition not proclamation.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
My previous forays into the Church in Wales have been in Monmouth where all was done decently and in order.
In Swansea & Brecon on Sunday, we were invited to join in the collect and the Canon (after the Mystery of Faith). I joined in the former; I closed my book for the latter (explaining to my younger son as I did so that we didn't say this bit because we're not priests).
The altar was eastward but the priest turned to face the congregation for the dominical words, the per ipsum, and the Lord's Prayer. And preached a dire sermon dismissing the stupidity of the OT Jews for coming up with stupid rules.
And we sang a hymn to the tune of Kum Ba Ya.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
And preached a dire sermon dismissing the stupidity of the OT Jews for coming up with stupid rules.
Oh dear. That's a phenomenal passage for liturgical iconoclasts. Perhaps he should reread the Pauline epistles and see that some sense of contextual order is certainly necessary. Maybe he had better check the source on those OT laws, too!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Bosch Peters (who tweets as @liturgy) has blogged on this recently. He does not approve
Carys
I tried for a second time today to access this blog link. It doesn't load.
quote:
This web page is not available because liturgy.co.nz took too long to respond. The website may be down or you may be experiencing issues with your Internet connection.
No issues with internet connections, regular high speed at home, high speed T2 at work with fixed IP. What does the blog say, and is it reposted elsewhere on the 'net?
The general website and the specific link to the blog post don't load.
Interesting a couple of people have reported a similar problem via Twitter, but others say it works for them as it does for me.
Basically don't do it. Unrehearsed choral speaking leads to bland rendition not proclamation.
Carys
It loaded tonight. Thanks for the comment. Suspect the link is intermittent as cables go underseas and then to get to me in the north of Canada from his thoughtful bloggerising, through extensive surveillance per Snowden's advice on such things. The NSA being worried about proper prayer and all
I think the weakness in the approach he suggests, viz., quote:
Compare this with the presider saying something akin to, “Let us pray (in silence) to follow God’s will”, and then the gathering community having a moment of genuine silent prayer, concluded by the presider prayerfully proclaiming the collect that has been well rehearsed beforehand, while the community makes this prayer their own, many in the gathering with their eyes closed, and all affirming the prayer with a resounding “Amen!” May it be so.
Is that presiding priests may fail in their duty with the Collect, and thus, with their lack of diligence, we all in it together. It is, as I noted, the universal practice in my experience within Canadian Anglicanism, save the faint scattering of the anglo-catholics who don't let the congregation do much of anything. Hard one this: we're damned at both ends.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
No problems with the Liturgy site but then it's just over a spit of water for me.
And it's Bosco, not Bosch, although that may have been an autocorrect on your part.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I see the prayer of the day as an introduction to the lessons of the day. It focuses the congregation on the theme of the lessons they are about to hear.
Historically, I don't think this is the case. Traditionally there were (still are in the RCC) three collects in the Eucharist, each of which concluded a liturgical act: the collect before the readings, which concluded the entrance rite (and often has nothing to do with the lections); the collect before the preface dialogue, which concluded the ceremonies around preparing the altar; and the final collect, concluding the communion rite. The BCP tradition kept only the first of these, replacing the post-communion with a fixed prayer, and eliminating the collect after the preparation of the altar altogether (I believe the Canadian BAS has restored these, perhaps as an option; ELW has them as well). Since in the traditional BCP's the opening collect was often printed with the lessons (as a part of the propers of the day, rather than the ordinary), it led many to believe that there was a closer relationship between Collect and readings than there in fact was (although some of Cranmer's revisions may have moved the Collect into a closer relationship to the readings).
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The C of E's Alternative Service Book took the view that the collect was the preparation for the readings and therefore developed a highly 'thematic' approach (with its own idiosyncratic thematic lectionary). The more recent Common Worship has gone the other way, adopting the RCL and linking the collects, not to the readings (which depend more or less on calendar date), but, in Ordinary Time, to the 'Sundays after Trinity' which move about according to the date of Easter.
Obviously on the major feasts (and festival seasons) there is an underlying theme which will be reflected in the prayers as well as the readings. Attempting to fit three readings and two or three prayers into a single theme at other times of the year is artificial at best and impossible at worst.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
My previous forays into the Church in Wales have been in Monmouth where all was done decently and in order.
In Swansea & Brecon on Sunday, we were invited to join in the collect and the Canon (after the Mystery of Faith). I joined in the former; I closed my book for the latter (explaining to my younger son as I did so that we didn't say this bit because we're not priests).
The altar was eastward but the priest turned to face the congregation for the dominical words, the per ipsum, and the Lord's Prayer. And preached a dire sermon dismissing the stupidity of the OT Jews for coming up with stupid rules.
And we sang a hymn to the tune of Kum Ba Ya.
Thurible
That would make a good MW Report - let them know what you think.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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