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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Reluctance to use old war horse hymns?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
It is well-known in the UK among regular churchgoers. (We sang it ourselves this week.)
Almost no hymns are well-known in the UK among the non-chruchgoing majority.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I was going from the post by arethosemyfeet, with given address as Hebrides - I took that as the UK. Regardless, it is one of my favourites and would not mind if it appeared more often on our hymn boards.
I was responding specifically to Jade Constable's assertion that nothing before Wesley was widely known among young Christians of her acquaintance. It has been well known and widely used in every church I have frequented.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I like it (and I'm not a hymn lover)because it is A a scriptural paraphrase and B in the first person plural.
I prefer "We" hymns. I don't like "I" hymns.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
....
"What about Birds are a-singing, Trees are a-flinging, Bishop's a-laying, hands on the heads?* ...."
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
That would fit 'Morning has broken'. Surely some shipmate feels inspired to write some more verses.
On 'All people that on earth do dwell' this is very widely known and sung in England. However, the Hebrides are in a part of Scotland where its equivalent would probably be wailed in unaccompanied Gaelic. What was written for the Coronation was the musical setting with fanfares.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Enoch
All people that on earth do dwell ... What was written for the Coronation was the musical setting with fanfares.
...and an alternative harmonisation originally by John Dowland as a falsibordone .
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
Some confusion here - I think it was the USA that was alleged to be unfamiliar with the Old Hundredth. It is very common in the UK, in my (admittedly limited) experience.
Old Hundredth is extremely common in the US. The last verse (often referred to as "the Doxology") is still in use in many mainline Prot shacks as an accompaniment to the Consecration of the Cash.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
Some confusion here - I think it was the USA that was alleged to be unfamiliar with the Old Hundredth. It is very common in the UK, in my (admittedly limited) experience.
Old Hundredth is extremely common in the US. The last verse (often referred to as "the Doxology") is still in use in many mainline Prot shacks as an accompaniment to the Consecration of the Cash.
Er, not quite, at least on this side of the Atlantic. The tune 'Old 100th' is obviously used for the metrical version of Ps. 100 (though it was originally the proper tune for Ps 134). The psalm would be concluded with a doxology - a LM version of the Gloria Patri - 'To Father, Son and Holy Ghost ...' The tune is also commonly used for the words 'Praise God from whom all blessings flow' at the 'consecration of the cash', and often referred to as 'The Doxology'. But that is the last verse of the hymn 'Awake my soul' by the saintly non-juror Bishop Thomas Ken, which is usually sung at least here to the tune 'Morning Hymn'.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
Some confusion here - I think it was the USA that was alleged to be unfamiliar with the Old Hundredth. It is very common in the UK, in my (admittedly limited) experience.
Old Hundredth is extremely common in the US. The last verse (often referred to as "the Doxology") is still in use in many mainline Prot shacks as an accompaniment to the Consecration of the Cash.
Er, not quite, at least on this side of the Atlantic. The tune 'Old 100th' is obviously used for the metrical version of Ps. 100 (though it was originally the proper tune for Ps 134). The psalm would be concluded with a doxology - a LM version of the Gloria Patri - 'To Father, Son and Holy Ghost ...' The tune is also commonly used for the words 'Praise God from whom all blessings flow' at the 'consecration of the cash', and often referred to as 'The Doxology'. But that is the last verse of the hymn 'Awake my soul' by the saintly non-juror Bishop Thomas Ken, which is usually sung at least here to the tune 'Morning Hymn'.
I was referring to the tune Old Hundredth, not the metrical version of Ps 100. Sorry if that was unclear!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]I was referring to the tune Old Hundredth, not the metrical version of Ps 100. Sorry if that was unclear! [/QB][/QUOTE]
Ah, I see. I was misled by your reference to 'the last verse' which made it sound like the hymn/psalm, which would have several verses, including a last one. As an alternative to the Old 100th Tallis's Canon sometimes is used for 'Praise God from whom all blessings flow', at least 'over here'.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Dunno where "here" is over there ![[Biased]](wink.gif) but here in the sunny south of England the Tallis canon is normal for what lots of us call "the doxology" (as if there were no other)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Interestingly (well, to me anyway) the original note values seem to be kept in Episcopal/Anglican churches over here, while other mainline Protestant churches even them out (i.e. equal quarter notes). I wonder why that is.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
"All people that on earth do dwell", "Awake my soul and with the sun" and "Glory to thee my God this night" are all Long Metre. So they have the same doxology and it will fit all three tunes.
The one in both the Old and New Versions is:-
"To Father, Son and Holy Ghost,
The God whom Earth and Heav'n adore,
Be glory as it was of old,
Is now, and shall be evermore."
That is out of copyright, and even if it wasn't, would fit the 'fair reference' exemption.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
At British Methodist presbyteral ordinations, the hymns are specified as part of the liturgy and consequently always the same. They are:
1. Ye servants of God your master proclaim
2. The Saviour when to heaven he rose
3. Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire
4. Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
5. O thou who camest from above
There tend to be some more modern songs during communion.
And and consequently ![[Confused]](confused.gif) hardly any one knows any of them... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I know four of the five (#2 is the unfamiliar one). But Methodists definitely tend to use a different tune for #5 (Wilton rather than Hereford), and I imagine they do also for #4 (which is Bryn Calfaria to me). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they had ideas other than Hanover for #1 as well..
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
"Away in a manger".
Although I think Americans usually sing that to Mueller, whereas the Brits to a man would expect the vastly superior Kirkpatrick.
They also have different tunes to It Came upon the Midnight Clear (and Sullivan definitely wins that one), O Little Town of Bethlehem (here I prefer the U.S. tune), and -- I don't know why this one surprised me, but it did -- While Shepherds Watched (which really should be sung to Lyngham anyway).
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
The ones you don't know aren't really traditional Anglican hymns at all, but a mix of saccharine Roman Catholic stuff and kitsch Evangelical Camp Revival stuff. Each, in its own way, the sort of thing that Dearmer and Vaughan Williams would have found horrifying.
I must admit, I have a soft spot for some of the saccharine RC stuff. Plus "Hail, Jesus, hail" (with the totally absurdly saccharine tune Viva Jesu) gets around the issue of Glory be to Jesus being an intimidating number of verses long.
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Vaughan-Williams's arrangement comes with bloodcurdling warnings
... make me want to play it fast in 6/8!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Almost no hymns are well-known in the UK among the non-chruchgoing majority.
Sad, but true. I got married recently, which was a good excuse to persuade my sister to set foot in a church. She told me afterwards that the only hymn she knew the words to in the service was All Things Bright and Beautiful (clearly O Perfect Love isn't a hymn everyone knows any more), and then she blamed me for picking a tune she didn't know (Royal Oak).
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
The tune is also commonly used for the words 'Praise God from whom all blessings flow' at the 'consecration of the cash', and often referred to as 'The Doxology'. But that is the last verse of the hymn 'Awake my soul' by the saintly non-juror Bishop Thomas Ken, which is usually sung at least here to the tune 'Morning Hymn'.
There's also a nice tune called 'The Morning Watch' for that one, although it's not very widespread.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
I got married recently, which was a good excuse to persuade my sister to set foot in a church.
Congratulations to you and Mrs P.
(I like saccharine old fashioned RC hymns too. Anything rather than the tasteful numbers we sang at my MOTR private school assemblies.)
[ 18. August 2013, 19:48: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I like "While Shepherds Watched" sung to "Cranbrook", since I found out that was possible, but I can't find people to sing it with.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Last Sunday, we had a full slate of old war horse hymns, and people are still talking about it with moist, dreamy eyes.
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
One of the things I dislike about the newish ELCA hymnal (Evangelical Lutheran Worship) is the pairing of traditional melodies with simpleminded contemporary lyrics -- believe me, I don't want or expect "thees" and "thous" and flowery Victorian pieties in hymns, but please don't make them sound as if they were vetted by committees of kindergarten teachers and therapists.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
This morning we had To Jesus Christ, our Sov'reign King at Holy Mass.
The other (Taize type hymns) got mumbled, but not that one!
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Even more so than I was before
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
believe me, I don't want or expect "thees" and "thous" and flowery Victorian pieties in hymns, but please don't make them sound as if they were vetted by committees of kindergarten teachers and therapists.
Is this a pond and/or confessional difference? In my experience of English Anglicanism, whenever hymns are used (as opposed to worship songs), they are almost invariably in cod-Cranmerian, even when the rest of the liturgy uses the contemporary language provision of Common Worship (or the Roman Missal, for that matter). I say 'cod' because the hymns are, for the most part, written between the late 18th and early 20th centuries, when that sort of language wasn't really the vernacular.
There are, of course, hymns written more recently (beginning perhaps after the First World War and taking off after the Second) that are in a more contemporary idiom, but with a handful of exceptions, these are not as popular as the older hymns. The handful of exceptions I can think of, by the way, are Timothy Dudley-Smith's paraphrases of the Evening Canticles ('Tell out my soul' and 'Faithful vigil ended), 'Lord of the Dance', 'Morning has broken', and 'Lord of all hopefulness'. And of these, the last three have always probably been more popular in schools and children's services, and seem to have declined in popularity over the past few decades. The most successful 'recentish' (i.e. twentieth century) hymn has been 'Thine be the glory', which is firmly in the cod-Cranmerian camp.
I can't really think of any other hymns without 'thees and thous' in the New English Hymnal, which is nearly universal in churches that care about music (or like to think that they do). I'm sure I've missed a few, but not a vast number.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
In my experience of English Anglicanism, whenever hymns are used (as opposed to worship songs), they are almost invariably in cod-Cranmerian, even when the rest of the liturgy uses the contemporary language provision of Common Worship (or the Roman Missal, for that matter). I say 'cod' because the hymns are, for the most part, written between the late 18th and early 20th centuries, when that sort of language wasn't really the vernacular.
[/QB]
Although cod-Cranmerian wasn't the vernacular when these hymns were written, the Book of Common Prayer and the Authorised Version held sway well into the 20th century, so they influenced the language of the hymns. Some of the best hymns, after all, either make allusions to, or quote directly from, Scripture. Older Baptist ministers and deacons that I can remember could pray extemporaneously in KJV-speak as well - no doubt there are some churches where that still happens.
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
I know four of the five (#2 is the unfamiliar one). But Methodists definitely tend to use a different tune for #5 (Wilton rather than Hereford), and I imagine they do also for #4 (which is Bryn Calfaria to me). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they had ideas other than Hanover for #1 as well..
At the ordination it is always we where informed sung to Hereford.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
I associate that with remembrance day services.
Whilst not a hymn, I'm always a little disappointed that Farrant's 'Call to Remembrance, O Lord' (psalm 25) isn't used more often at Remembrance Sunday services. I have sung it as an anthem at such a service before, as well as having witnessed it sung beautifully as an anthem around the War Memorial at some point of laying the wreaths or the Last Post (can't remember exactly where it came).
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I like "While Shepherds Watched" sung to "Cranbrook", since I found out that was possible, but I can't find people to sing it with.
Any group of Yorkshiremen, provided you're prepared to risk their incredulity and then wrath when you tell them that the tune is Kentish.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
I associate that with remembrance day services.
Whilst not a hymn, I'm always a little disappointed that Farrant's 'Call to Remembrance, O Lord' (psalm 25) isn't used more often at Remembrance Sunday services. I have sung it as an anthem at such a service before, as well as having witnessed it sung beautifully as an anthem around the War Memorial at some point of laying the wreaths or the Last Post (can't remember exactly where it came).
The text is the Introit for Lent II, IIRC. Aside from the word in the first line, I don't see a strong connection to Remembrance Sunday--which is a memorial for the war dead, right?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
I associate that with remembrance day services.
Whilst not a hymn, I'm always a little disappointed that Farrant's 'Call to Remembrance, O Lord' (psalm 25) isn't used more often at Remembrance Sunday services. I have sung it as an anthem at such a service before, as well as having witnessed it sung beautifully as an anthem around the War Memorial at some point of laying the wreaths or the Last Post (can't remember exactly where it came).
The text is the Introit for Lent II, IIRC. Aside from the word in the first line, I don't see a strong connection to Remembrance Sunday--which is a memorial for the war dead, right?
Agree.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I can't really think of any other hymns without 'thees and thous' in the New English Hymnal,
Patrick Appleford's Lord Jesus Christ, you have come to us is in NEH and we sang it yesterday.
But you're right. Poetic archaic (a nicer phrase than cod Cranmerian) is standard in hymns, and I've never known any objection.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm sorry to say we also had "Dear Lord and Father of mankind".
What sentimental drivel.
Lovely knicker-wetting tune.
At least "Shine Jesus shine" is trinitarian by comparison.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm sorry to say we also had "Dear Lord and Father of mankind".
What sentimental drivel.
It doesn't help that the first eleven verses are always left out.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I always find it heart-warming on the Ship when we find that members of the crew have so much more discernment, knowledge and taste than 98% of the relevant population.
I mean the very fact that "Dear Lord and Father" is so beloved by so many people makes it suspect in the first place. Then there is that whole infradig address to the Second Person of the Trinity, eschewing full and formal incorporation of the Whole Committee, which is clearly defective. I mean who'd talk to Jesus? As for the idea that that bloody Nazarene might be dispenser of balm for the human soul, might breathe order into human or cosmic chaos, or might be the revelatory of God's being ... for Christ's sake ... get a hold of yourselves and pull, I say.
And a comprehensible tune. Don't even get me going. Any friggin' pleb might be able to sing it after hearing it a few times. Nah. Bring back Penderecki-sings-Rahner, I say.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The text is the Introit for Lent II, IIRC. Aside from the word in the first line, I don't see a strong connection to Remembrance Sunday--which is a memorial for the war dead, right?
Agree.
Whilst I am with you in knowing it's proper use in Lent, it is most suitable when you consider that it fits as an intercession to God on behalf of all the dead who require our prayers (if you believe in that kind of thing!) so is most suitable at many times of the year including funerals, All Souls etc.
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I like "While Shepherds Watched" sung to "Cranbrook", since I found out that was possible, but I can't find people to sing it with.
I'll join in! I did once sing 'While shepherds...' to that tune when out carol-singing one year. The group I was with felt like a change from the other two options.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Wednesbury
Apprentice
# 14097
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
At British Methodist presbyteral ordinations, the hymns are specified as part of the liturgy and consequently always the same. They are:
1. Ye servants of God your master proclaim
2. The Saviour when to heaven he rose
3. Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire
4. Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
5. O thou who camest from above
There tend to be some more modern songs during communion.
And and consequently hardly any one knows any of them...
I know four of the five (#2 is the unfamiliar one). But Methodists definitely tend to use a different tune for #5 (Wilton rather than Hereford), and I imagine they do also for #4 (which is Bryn Calfaria to me). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they had ideas other than Hanover for #1 as well..
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
At the ordination it is always we where informed sung to Hereford.
Many years ago #5 almost always went to Wilton, but Hereford now seems to be more usual. Quite right about other ideas for #1, too - I'd be surprised to hear anything other than Laudate Dominum (Parry) at a Methodist service. #4 isn't quite so common, but I'd expect to hear St Helen rather than Bryn Calfaria. For #2 it would be Gonfalon Royal.
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