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Source: (consider it) Thread: Atheist church
ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Which is far better than what most youth do on Sunday mornings, which is smoke cannabis and watch blasphemous films.

Its worse than that mate! Some of them even go dancing [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

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Mark Betts

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The Guardian: 'Not believing in God makes life more precious': meet the atheist 'churchgoers'

quote:
From the above article:
David Robertson, director of the Solas Centre for Public Christianity and a Free Church of Scotland minister in Dundee, is also doubtful. "I can understand why the format of church would be very appealing," he says, "but I do think it's going to appeal only to one particular section of the community" – what he calls "a middle-class cultural elite".


That's funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing myself!

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Mark Betts

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I could not find a review of the 3rd Sunday Assembly anywhere - this was to be two services on March 3rd. The reason for the second service was that all couldn't fit into the church for just one service.

I am however reliably informed that both services did indeed take place, it's just that the media have lost interest and moved on to other things.

Anyway, I did find a link which offers a somewhat unexpected approach to what goes on in "The Nave" at Islington on the first Sunday of every month:

Sunday Assembly – where are the weirdos?

Worth a read! [Smile]

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Mark Betts

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Ah, at last, I may have found what I'm looking for, but be warned, it's NSFW:

Born Again Atheists?

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SvitlanaV2
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Mark Betts

That article comes across as rather urban and Anglican in its assumptions that all of life is to be found in church. But the Atheist church isn't the CofE, and it's in a rather middle class part of London, so I understand. It's self-selecting, and it's not anyone's first port of call. You could see it as a respectable Non-conformist gathering of true non-believers, rather than a higgledy-piggledy collection of folk whose beliefs and personal circumstances are all over the shop.

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Mark Betts

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You mean this article SvitlanaV2?

Sunday Assembly – where are the weirdos?

Yes. I think I can see your point - like you're either in or out, a "gathered" congregation of like minded individuals - young white middle-class academic individuals, who are all atheists.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
where are the weirdos?

I think I might know....

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Mark Betts

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Latest - including a brief review on how the 3rd Sunday Assembly went:

Britain's 'atheist church' set to go global

So it's confirmed that there are indeed a lot of young, white, middle-class academic atheists in London and elsewhere who are interested in Sanderson's venture - at least until they get bored, or the entertainment starts to lose its edge, or the next craze for "things to do in an academic's spare time" comes along.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
where are the weirdos?

I think I might know....
Enlighten us then.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Latest - including a brief review on how the 3rd Sunday Assembly went:

Britain's 'atheist church' set to go global

So it's confirmed that there are indeed a lot of young, white, middle-class academic atheists in London and elsewhere who are interested in Sanderson's venture - at least until they get bored, or the entertainment starts to lose its edge, or the next craze for "things to do in an academic's spare time" comes along.

I'm surprised that the Americans need an Englishman's advice on doing this, because they already have humanist fellowships in some places. But it'll be interesting to see how they do in the rest of the UK.

Actually, one thing this proves is that church planting is still a valid thing to do. And that it also helps to get into the national news.

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Mark Betts

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As "Church" is an English word for a Christian religious institution or building, we should really be using "scare quotes" whenever we refer to these assemblies of atheists. So it should be Atheist "church" - note small 'C' as well.

Anyway, as these "churches" for middle-class white atheist academics rely heavily on good entertainers and science lecturers, I can't see them expanding very far without the quality taking a nosedive - there are only so many talented and interesting personalities available - and they are by no means all atheist, and it seems even to try and run the Islington Assembly on a weekly basis would be its downfall.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
As "Church" is an English word for a Christian religious institution or building, we should really be using "scare quotes" whenever we refer to these assemblies of atheists. So it should be Atheist "church" - note small 'C' as well.

Anyway, as these "churches" for middle-class white atheist academics rely heavily on good entertainers and science lecturers, I can't see them expanding very far without the quality taking a nosedive - there are only so many talented and interesting personalities available - and they are by no means all atheist, and it seems even to try and run the Islington Assembly on a weekly basis would be its downfall.

Do they limit their speakers to atheists? Anyhow, since that well known authority on atheist gatherings, Mark Betts, said they wouldn't last six months, the shortage of entertainers seems unlikely to be a problem.
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mousethief

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I know you can't take them TOO seriously, but the Oxford English Dictionary says the word has been used for non-Christian places of worship since 893. Note that's three digits, not four.

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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I know you can't take them TOO seriously, but the Oxford English Dictionary says the word has been used for non-Christian places of worship since 893. Note that's three digits, not four.

But ... what did atheists worship in those places of worship back in Anglo-Saxon times?

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MSHB
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Sorry - it was meant to be:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I know you can't take them TOO seriously, but the Oxford English Dictionary says the word has been used for non-Christian places of worship since 893. Note that's three digits, not four.

But ... what did atheists worship in those non-Christian places of worship back in Anglo-Saxon times?

[ 10. March 2013, 07:28: Message edited by: MSHB ]

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lilBuddha
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They didn't. It comes from the Greek meaning a gathering of citizens from a town. So it is a non-theistic word co-opted by Christianity.

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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They didn't. It comes from the Greek meaning a gathering of citizens from a town. So it is a non-theistic word co-opted by Christianity.

"Church" is theistic. The word derives via the common Germanic *kirikon (church/kirk/Kirche/etc) from the Greek word kyriakos - meaning "belonging to the Lord". You might be thinking of ekklesia - the word for "church" used in the New Testament. That is not the origin of our English word "church".

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They didn't. It comes from the Greek meaning a gathering of citizens from a town. So it is a non-theistic word co-opted by Christianity.

"Church" is theistic. The word derives via the common Germanic *kirikon (church/kirk/Kirche/etc) from the Greek word kyriakos - meaning "belonging to the Lord". You might be thinking of ekklesia - the word for "church" used in the New Testament. That is not the origin of our English word "church".
However Mousethief is correct that it was used to refer to non-Christian places of worship very early on. The OED cites it as used for a Jewish synagogue in a 10th century Old English translation of the gospel of Luke. And for a Roman temple in an early 11th century translation of Orosius' History.

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leo
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The quibbling over semantics, of what the word 'church' means, misses the point.

Many atheists like to mark births, marriages and deaths, with some sort of ceremony where shared values are rehearsed. Secular 'celebrants' often make a better, more personalised, job of this than many clergy.

A special building in which to hold such ceremonies is desirable.

Who are we to begrudge them such a place?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The quibbling over semantics, of what the word 'church' means, misses the point.

Many atheists like to mark births, marriages and deaths, with some sort of ceremony where shared values are rehearsed. Secular 'celebrants' often make a better, more personalised, job of this than many clergy.

A special building in which to hold such ceremonies is desirable.

Who are we to begrudge them such a place?

Nobody is begrudging them such a place - in fact the British Humanist Association already fulfills this function.

However, the Sunday Assembly does not appear to be about these things at all - it is just a monthly entertainment venue + science lecture for middle-class white atheist academics.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do they limit their speakers to atheists?

Probably not, but I can't see an entertainer or science lecturer who isn't an atheist having much enthusiasm for it.

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scuffleball
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Meanwhile, at the nearby Evangelical church...

What happens at an atheist church?

quote:
From the above article:
The Sunday Assembly certainly did better business than at the evangelical St Jude and St Paul's Church next door, where about 30 believers gathered to sing gospel songs and listen to Bible readings.

But Bishop Harrison, a Christian preacher for 30 years, says he does not see his new neighbours as a threat, confidently predicting that their spiritual journey will eventually lead them to God.

"They have got to start from somewhere," he says.

Could the Bishop be right?
Potentially. There's a lot that can be taken from religion without believing in the supernatural. Mindfulness is the most often cited example, perhaps because it seems relatively inoffensive and intrapersonal.

But this whole idea doesn't seem terribly novel - isn't this rather similar to Unitarianism, which is also has humanist moments and seems very white-middle-class-academic. I suspect Unitarianism is more popular in the US because the state is weaker there and so people need something to take up the social function of religion, if they don't believe in God. I suppose Unitarianism can often have very new-age moments, which people who don't believe in the supernatural might be offended by.

Like other commentators, I feel some concern that this is too white-middle-class-academic. Yes, there are things that can be taken from religion without believing in the supernatural, but these are more than mindfulness. Perhaps the most striking thing about the C of E is that it's present in every suburb and village of England, and it's not surprising that community organizing goes through churches, because this presence and a commitment to people-centeredness that means that ministers of religion see perhaps better than anything else the life of the marginalized.

So what else can be taken from religion than Mindfulness? A belief that "by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone," commitment to live in voluntary simplicity alongside the poor and marginalized in solidarity, a belief in social justice that means more than simply collecting money for charity, seeing good in everybody and value in all human life, and a commitment to listening to people, "not so much [seeking] to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love."

I would encourage the Atheist Church to set up an organized system of listeners akin to Healing Ministry people in churches, and to do some sort of community work.

An atheist friend of mine expressed interest in volunteering for a foodbank alongside concern that most such foodbanks were being run by churches who might use the foodbank as an excuse for proselytizing.

I am reminded of the school-assembly-hymn, "The Family of Man" by the Spinners. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to it here for copyright reasons but it's on YouTube. Like a lot of 1980s school-assembly-hymns it doesn't explicitly mention the supernatural. I seem to notice that secular hymns, such as those found in "Come and Praise" the BBC hymnal from the 1970s and 1980s are mostly about social obligation and the brotherhood of man whereas most modern secular hymns seem to be about a very trite sort of self-belief that seems rather individualistic.


quote:
Originally posted by leo:


Many atheists like to mark births, marriages and deaths, with some sort of ceremony where shared values are rehearsed. Secular 'celebrants' often make a better, more personalised, job of this than many clergy.

I heard about such an organization in Québec called the FSEV, but its clergy don't seem to hold regular services; they seem to hold *only* pastoral services, and have no sense of community whatsoever. This seems somewhat commercialized.

[ 10. March 2013, 20:25: Message edited by: scuffleball ]

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ken: I thought it was called Taize?

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do they limit their speakers to atheists?

Probably not, but I can't see an entertainer or science lecturer who isn't an atheist having much enthusiasm for it.
As others have pointed out there are atheistic/humanist groups already doing this. Among the older ones are Ethical Culture in the US (started 1877) though quite small. The Unitarian Universalists (before and after merger) have had atheists/humanists for decades (or longer) though individual congregations will vary in their mix of humanists/Christians/pagans/others. My local UU church has a humanist potluck once a month and a Sunday forum at 9 on Sundays (followed by the regular worship service). The local humanist society (founded 1962, weekly meetings since 1990) has a meeting at 11 on Sundays followed by lunch (free for students and first timers, donations requested from others). The local student humanist/atheist group has had several non atheists speak (Hindu, Jewish, Christian in a friendly discussion with a visiting atheist). However these were all affiliated in some way with the University. I'm not sure they could pull in a non-atheist from further afield [barring people determined to do one way evangelism]. A joint effort with some of the other student groups might work.

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
........I can't see them expanding very far without the quality taking a nosedive - there are only so many talented and interesting personalities available .......

Do you never see that problem arising in theist churches then?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
........I can't see them expanding very far without the quality taking a nosedive - there are only so many talented and interesting personalities available .......

Do you never see that problem arising in theist churches then?
Yes I do see that - which is why I now believe good liturgy is much more important than sermons and worship bands.

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lilBuddha
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Wait a moment, I thought sermons were part of the liturgy in most Christian faiths. Arguably one of the most important, IMO.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Wait a moment, I thought sermons were part of the liturgy in most Christian faiths. Arguably one of the most important, IMO.

Liturgy may be one of those words which means different things to different people.

But to me, liturgy is the part of the service which is written down and cannot be changed. It has (or should have) more authority than a sermon. People can agree or disagree about what is said in the pulpit, but it soon gets forgotten anyway. But liturgy is always the same and cannot be forgotten, and that's why it is so important the liturgy is right (orthodox).

Many think that the sermon is the most important part of the service - I used to - but that doesn't make it part of the liturgy.

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leo
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Liturgy originally meant 'the work of the people' and came to mean 'what happens during the Christian assembly'.

The rubrics of Liturgy require a sermon to be preached on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. Hence the sermon is definitely part of, not an addition to, the Liturgy.

Liturgy isn't merely the written down, unchanging bits since there are parts of it that are extempore - for example, the intercessions are often ad lib.

(Even the eucharistic prayer was ad lib in early liturgies, albeit conforming to a pattern).

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Mark Betts

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Thanks for that leo - I was talking off the top of my head, hence my disclaimer.

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

However, the Sunday Assembly does not appear to be about these things at all - it is just a monthly entertainment venue + science lecture for middle-class white atheist academics.

Do you begrudge middle-class white atheist academics having a monthly entertainment venue + science lecture?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Do you begrudge middle-class white atheist academics having a monthly entertainment venue + science lecture?

No I don't think so - but I do begrudge talking about a movement in such a way as to make out it is something which it isn't.

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Horseman Bree
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ISTM that just about any gathering that meets regularly has some form of liturgy. It may, like the British Constitution, not be actually written down, but it is well understood by all the regular participants. People need to feel that they know what to do, and when, if they are going to be able to participate.

Try changing the order of events in a, say, Baptist church and be prepared to duck!

Of course, a Baptist or a Quaker service will not make any sense to an Orthodox worshipper, but that doesn't mean that there is no formal understanding of what is happening (even if, in the Quaker case, nothing is happening that one can see).

Oh, and, Mark, that "Born Again Atheists" link seems to be pretty potty-mouthed for a Good Christian.

[ 12. March 2013, 11:44: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
....Oh, and, Mark, that "Born Again Atheists" link seems to be pretty potty-mouthed for a Good Christian.

I know, but I did insert the NSFW disclaimer.

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Mark Betts

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More fun! [Smile]

I want to try to keep this thread alive, so:
Good without God: Atheist churches offer non-believers community and ritual without faith

Here's a snippet to whet your appetites:

quote:
Irving Hexham, professor of religious studies and new religious movements at the University of Calgary:
"In the 19th century, there was a rather large movement of 'Rationalist Churches,' they called them. They were agnostics and atheists and they had circuits of preachers like T.H. Huxley [a period advocate of Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution]. They would go around preaching against religion. We seem to be going back to that," he said.

Yet the Rationalist Churches petered out in the 1930s. Religion and atheism come and go in history, he said. Regardless of how advanced its scientific understanding becomes, humans tend to slide back into religiosity over time, Mr. Hexham said.

"There are questions about death. As long as people die they seek answers for the meaning of life," he said.



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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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kankucho
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*checks watch* [Snore]

What point from that were you hoping to discuss further? Personally, if I were in this to defend god religion in the face of non-religious communion, I wouldn't have pull-quoted a line about 'sliding back' into religion, which seems only to highlight the intellectual laziness of the occasionally religious.

To me, this bit seems more pertinent to the gist of the current thread and what I'm perceiving to be your own take on it:

quote:
It may seem puzzling to the religious, concedes Gail McCabe, a retired sociology professor and humanist chaplain at the University of Toronto and past president and spokesperson for the Ontario Humanist Society. But for non-theists, this all separates very neatly.

“Basically, religion is, in fact, a social institution,” she said. “And, in fact, there doesn’t have to be God in it.”



[ 16. March 2013, 12:10: Message edited by: kankucho ]

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scuffleball
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quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Meanwhile, at the nearby Evangelical church...

What happens at an atheist church?

quote:
From the above article:
The Sunday Assembly certainly did better business than at the evangelical St Jude and St Paul's Church next door, where about 30 believers gathered to sing gospel songs and listen to Bible readings.

But Bishop Harrison, a Christian preacher for 30 years, says he does not see his new neighbours as a threat, confidently predicting that their spiritual journey will eventually lead them to God.

"They have got to start from somewhere," he says.

Could the Bishop be right?
Potentially. There's a lot that can be taken from religion without believing in the supernatural. Mindfulness is the most often cited example, perhaps because it seems relatively inoffensive and intrapersonal.

But this whole idea doesn't seem terribly novel - isn't this rather similar to Unitarianism, which is also has humanist moments and seems very white-middle-class-academic. I suspect Unitarianism is more popular in the US because the state is weaker there and so people need something to take up the social function of religion, if they don't believe in God. I suppose Unitarianism can often have very new-age moments, which people who don't believe in the supernatural might be offended by.

Like other commentators, I feel some concern that this is too white-middle-class-academic. Yes, there are things that can be taken from religion without believing in the supernatural, but these are more than mindfulness. Perhaps the most striking thing about the C of E is that it's present in every suburb and village of England, and it's not surprising that community organizing goes through churches, because this presence and a commitment to people-centeredness that means that ministers of religion see perhaps better than anything else the life of the marginalized.

So what else can be taken from religion than Mindfulness? A belief that "by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone," commitment to live in voluntary simplicity alongside the poor and marginalized in solidarity, a belief in social justice that means more than simply collecting money for charity, seeing good in everybody and value in all human life, and a commitment to listening to people, "not so much [seeking] to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love."

I would encourage the Atheist Church to set up an organized system of listeners akin to Healing Ministry people in churches, and to do some sort of community work.

An atheist friend of mine expressed interest in volunteering for a foodbank alongside concern that most such foodbanks were being run by churches who might use the foodbank as an excuse for proselytizing.

I am reminded of the school-assembly-hymn, "The Family of Man" by the Spinners. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to it here for copyright reasons but it's on YouTube. Like a lot of 1980s school-assembly-hymns it doesn't explicitly mention the supernatural. I seem to notice that secular hymns, such as those found in "Come and Praise" the BBC hymnal from the 1970s and 1980s are mostly about social obligation and the brotherhood of man whereas most modern secular hymns seem to be about a very trite sort of self-belief that seems rather individualistic.


quote:
Originally posted by leo:


Many atheists like to mark births, marriages and deaths, with some sort of ceremony where shared values are rehearsed. Secular 'celebrants' often make a better, more personalised, job of this than many clergy.

I heard about such an organization in Québec called the FSEV, but its clergy don't seem to hold regular services; they seem to hold *only* pastoral services, and have no sense of community whatsoever. This seems somewhat commercialized.

Someone else thinks the atheist church should have a pastoral function:

http://rationalist.org.uk/articles/4015/why-we-need-humanist-churches

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ken: I thought it was called Taize?

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Mark Betts

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Come now kankucho - you wouldn't expect me to quote a line from a humanist chaplain would you? But of course there's nothing to stop you from doing so.

So, going off your quote, it would seem that some church services, particularly low church and liberal, are little more than social institutions. I don't agree that they are of course, but attending them sometimes, you could be forgiven for thinking that.

I just wonder what Sanderson Jones and co. could do with an Orthodox service of Devine Liturgy?

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lilBuddha
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This is not to denigrate any group of worshiper, but all group religious activities have strong social function. It is the only demonstrable thing they do have.
You may prefer an orthodox setting, but to suggest other forms are less worthy is arrogance, not accuracy.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...but to suggest other forms are less worthy is arrogance, not accuracy.

Except, of course that I didn't. Why should I lie about my observations of different types of church service?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do they limit their speakers to atheists?

Back to this question, I've just found out who will be speaking at "Easter for Atheists": April 7th, at 1.30 pm.

None other than Dave Tomlinson, a vicar!

quote:
From the advert:
This wonderful vicar will talk about the power of stories, myths and metaphors as ways of seeing the world, and why humans have enjoyed the Easter tale.


The Sunday Assembly - Events

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do they limit their speakers to atheists?

Back to this question, I've just found out who will be speaking at "Easter for Atheists": April 7th, at 1.30 pm.

None other than Dave Tomlinson, a vicar!


Looks like you were wrong about non-atheists not wanting to speak to an atheist gathering.
The larger question about this thread is "Why do you care?" Don't you already have a past time to keep you busy on Sundays?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
...The larger question about this thread is "Why do you care?" Don't you already have a past time to keep you busy on Sundays?

It might as well be asked, "Why do you care?" Why does anyone bother posting on here, in any thread?

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SusanDoris

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I shall be looking with interest at what Dave Tomlinson has to say!!

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do they limit their speakers to atheists?

Back to this question, I've just found out who will be speaking at "Easter for Atheists": April 7th, at 1.30 pm.

None other than Dave Tomlinson, a vicar!

quote:
From the advert:
This wonderful vicar will talk about the power of stories, myths and metaphors as ways of seeing the world, and why humans have enjoyed the Easter tale.


The Sunday Assembly - Events

Excellent!

Looks like an open minded person who is willing to engage with the questions - not to assume religion has all the answers.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Looks like an open minded person who is willing to engage with the questions - not to assume religion has all the answers.

Can you explain what you mean by this?
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Boogie

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I would say that anyone who is willing to be a speaker at an atheist Church will be engaging with them and with their questions - looking at story and myth will do this too.

I like the fact that there is dialogue between the two 'churches' and a sense of friendly discourse.

Bodes well for both imo.

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Squibs
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I think that if you like post-evangelical/ emergent types then Dave Tomlinson would be of interest to you.

It doesn't surprise me that someone form the emergent movement would be the type of person to speak at the Sunday Assembly. My broad impression of the emergent movement is that it's an "inclusive" community wrapped up in a bit of God talk and minus the certainty.

Incidentally, if you are into Astanga Yoga and "ambient meditative services" then the Rev Tomlinson church, St Luke's, is the one for you.

http://www.davetomlinson.co.uk/

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would say that anyone who is willing to be a speaker at an atheist Church will be engaging with them and with their questions - looking at story and myth will do this too.

I like the fact that there is dialogue between the two 'churches' and a sense of friendly discourse.

Bodes well for both imo.

Perhaps. But it really depends on what the Rev believes and discusses.

However, I was more interested in the "certainty" part of your post. What's wrong with certainty? Additionally, I've personally not met any Christian who has stated that religion has all the answers. Have you?

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Horseman Bree
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"Certainty" in the Church has all too often meant absolute judgmentalism and the imposition of suffering on people who happen not to think exactly the way you do.

Check out the various forms of the Inquisition, or the tendency to punich the women who got pregnant but not the men who contributed, or the conviction that being a Christian of a particular sect means that the whole country should pray in exactly one way and that anything else is perecution. The Puritans escaping from such "persecution" in England, so that they could persecute (or even slaughter) people not like themselves in Massachusetts is but one of the deadly examples.

Seems to me that the story of the woman taken in adultery spoke to a form of "certainty" that happened to avoid thinking about reality.

And I can be quite certain that if I utter a phrase about "doubt being necessary for faith" there will be a totally-certain person along to correct me, despite the inherent meaning of faith.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Additionally, I've personally not met any Christian who has stated that religion has all the answers. Have you?

You are joking, yeah? There are printings handed out on street corners, people preaching in public places* and on the telly saying exactly this.


*And in a lot of those steeply buildings you might have noticed around.

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