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Source: (consider it) Thread: Passages to discuss with Jehovah's witnesses
anteater

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# 11435

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Dunno whether this will get anywhere, 'cause it might be too much like me setting myself up as an Authority on JWs, and throwing out hints on how to handle thew. Which is not entirely true, since my real preference would be for a JW to engage with me on this. But I doubt if there are any on the Ship.

Anyway let me take one. From Phil Ch 2.

quote:
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him [Jesus]
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is a good starting point since JWs of all people major on the Name of God, hence their name "Jehovah's witnesses". But they have a problem here, and can't really well answer the question: Who has the name that is above every name?

They want to say Jehovah, but how can they given the clear statement that Jesus has the name that is above every name. They have tried pointing out to me that it really means above every OTHER name, but this is trivially true and irrelevant. Obviously a name cannot be more important than itself.

So what does this text mean? I think it's ambiguous. It could mean that Jesus is the name above every name, but I think it is the title LORD that is meant, which as the JWs well know is the title used in the NT as the equivalent of Jehovah. In their translation they so translate it when it suits their doctrine. Though I would never support substituting LORD with Jehovah, even where theologically ok, I suspect that the real meaning is that everyone shall recognise that Jesus is LORD (Jehovah) to the glory of God Almighty.

Well if there is a JW on the Ship I'd be interested in their response.

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South Coast Kevin
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Thing is, Jehovah's Witnesses have well-rehearsed arguments regarding just about all the obvious Bible passages more orthodox Christians might like to bring up. Several years ago, I met regularly for a while with a lovely old lady and we tried to convert each other, with very little success. We were each so convinced of our positions and had solid arguments (so we both thought) for what we believed. Ah, the arrogance and vanity of youth on my part!

From what I've read and from my own experiences, you're more likely to get somewhere if you focus more on issues rather than Bible passages. For example, if the Watchtower (the JW head office / institution) is God's faithful channel of communication for all humanity, then how come they've changed their mind on various positions? That could be a good angle, given the more or less absolute orthodoxy demanded of JWs - if you've faithfully followed the party line for, say, 50 years then IIRC you'll have changed your mind and changed it back again on several issues.

As I'm sure you know, anteater, there are loads of websites run by ex-JWs or others wishing to 'convert' JWs. They all have details of the doctrinal changes, failed (and then reworked) prophecies etc.

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L'organist
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No need for discussion - JWs won't engage properly anyway.

Just tell them you are a Roman Catholic, that you consider them to be heretics, that you would support the return of the Inquisition and that you will pray to St Francis Xavier (patron saint of unbelievers) and St Thomas the Apostle (patron saint of doubters) for them to be led to true faith.

If they are still on your doorstep after that, grab their hands as you fall to your knees and begin to recite Hail Marys.

Its always worked for me [Snigger]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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A professor at the university where I used to work died, and since I knew both him and his wife (also a professor there), I went to his funeral. Someone recounted the story of when Jehovah's Witnesses came to his door. His hair, quite curly, was unkempt and wild, and he flung the door open, and with wide eyes declared, "I AM JEHOVAH!" Apparently they turned tail and ran.

For some reason, the fact that he was Jewish makes the story even funnier to me.


Once, some years ago, a really nice JW lady was in the waiting room with me as our cars were repaired. She opened with the line, "Did you know God has a name?" and then pointed to some verse in the Bible that really says "YHWH is his name." She was too nice; I didn't want to go into it with her - and there were others involved in the conversation, too (other Christians, even) - but I wish I could get that line fed to me again so I could tell them all about Martin Luther's sophomoric grasp of Hebrew. But they probably have an answer for that too. Anyone know?

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Moo

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# 107

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If you want to discuss specific Bible verses that refute the doctrines of the JWs, this thread can stay here. If you want to discuss general techniques for dealing with JWs, we can transfer it to Purg.

Moo, Kerygmania Host

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Kerygmania host
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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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Sorry, my tangent certainly took us further afield than the OP seems to want to go.

As for specific texts, a quick google yielded this site, which seems to be a list of verses JWs themselves use. It might be useful for a discussion of actual biblical texts, particularly for those here who can read the texts in the original languages (I can't).

The linked page doesn't seem to delve into the original languages. Does anyone know how JWs themselves regard the original languages? I know they have their own translation; do they believe it's a faithful rendering of the originals, or an inspired, more accurate text?

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
The linked page doesn't seem to delve into the original languages. Does anyone know how JWs themselves regard the original languages? I know they have their own translation; do they believe it's a faithful rendering of the originals, or an inspired, more accurate text?

Ah yes, this reminds me - the JW Bible version (the 'New World Translation', published in the 1960s? *Looks it up* 1961) was translated by persons unknown. They say this is so as not to give credit to mere humans, or something like that, but it obviously means that one can't weigh up the credentials of the translators. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill but the secrecy bothers me...

As for actual Bible passages (sorry Moo!), I'd probably really enjoy batting ideas back and forward with a JW who I was actually friends with, but without the context of an existing relationship I wonder how fruitful it'd be.

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anteater

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SouthCoastKevin:
Actually the NWT plays this section fairly straight:

quote:
.9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,
11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

I suppose non JWs will have little to say, which is why I thought the thread may die, since it's pretty obvious what it means and that it gives JWs an impossible dilemma when challenged to answer: Who has the highest name of all?

I disagree with the general skepticism regarding JWs. It is obviously true of many, but there are genuine idealists in the sect and as in even the tightest of sects there are doubters and people with more liberal views. I've known some.

For instance when I was given a convincing argument by an Evangelical about all christians (non just 144,000) having the heavenly calling I had and did admit to her that she had won the argument. It was some time later I converted, but that was an important step.

Also, when I challenged a JW on how it was that they accepted whole blood innoculations (needed so their leaders could travel the world) whilst refusing transfusions, he at first flatly denied it (there's an Awake article on it c. 1961) and when told by his wife that it was true, since she had been to their missionary school in the US and had to receive one (and was told it's ok because Br. Knorr (the then President) takes them, he said that if, when he further checks it out, it turns out to be true, he will leave that very day.

BTW this may no longer be true if they have developed vaccines that do not require blood, I just don't know about that. At the time some vaccines could not be delivered in any other way.

OK so it's not many, and when they are it pairs, that will serve as a constraint (but they aren't always as I wasn't in the incident mentioned above).

It's also worth asking them why they call themselves Jehovah's witnesses, when Jesus' closing words in Matthew say that christians are "Witnesses of ME [Jesus]". Not Jehovah? Well of course they're the same really but JWs don't know that.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
SouthCoastKevin:
Actually the NWT plays this section fairly straight:

quote:
.9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,
11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

I suppose non JWs will have little to say, which is why I thought the thread may die, since it's pretty obvious what it means and that it gives JWs an impossible dilemma when challenged to answer: Who has the highest name of all?
I think they simply say the 'other' is implicit - because the Bible (they say) clearly teaches that Jesus is the first of / in God's creation, anything that says he has the name above all names must really mean the name above all names other than Jehovah's.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
L'organist: No need for discussion - JWs won't engage properly anyway.
I managed to out-discuss a JW on a theological point once, to the point of her admitting "I guess you're right". I'm still proud of that [Big Grin]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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MrsBeaky
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# 17663

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I'm fairly certain I've been black-listed by the JWs.
I always felt a huge amount of compassion/ admiration for their commitment to obedient door-knocking and the most fruitful discussions I had with them were around the 144,000 thing and how amazing they were to carry on not knowing whether or not they had made the cut.....the last time they came round the lady was quite aggressive but I engaged with her none-the-less....eventually I said to her that perhaps we should finish the discussion with a prayer for us both at which point she hissed (literally) at me "I would rather sit down and pray with a prostitute than pray with you!"

They haven't been back since.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Host hat on

The discussion on this thread is not confining itself to the Bible, so I'm transferring it to Purg.

Host hat off

Moo

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Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614

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It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
— Jonathan Swift

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
MrsBeaky: I'm fairly certain I've been black-listed by the JWs.
My mother has the same feeling, they seem to pass by her house after she had a particularly strong conversation with them.

I'm still not sure though if these black lists really exist, or if they're just an urban legend.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I suspect they do--why else can't we get a Mormon missionary to visit us in lo these 15 years, even after an express invitation???

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
MrsBeaky: I'm fairly certain I've been black-listed by the JWs.
My mother has the same feeling, they seem to pass by her house after she had a particularly strong conversation with them.

I'm still not sure though if these black lists really exist, or if they're just an urban legend.

I don't know about black lists, but they surely keep some sort of record of the kinds of response that they get at each house? They have a highly labour-intensive way of working, and it would be utterly ridiculous and wasteful for them not to keep track of outcomes, nor to assess the likelihood of future success or failure.
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Bostonman
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# 17108

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As a side note, I was just reading this thread this afternoon and came back from a run later to find two JWs sitting in a van outside my house with a third wandering around looking for the door! Thanks to the Ship, I recognized them by the New World Translation one had!
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Margaret

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# 283

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

I don't know about black lists, but they surely keep some sort of record of the kinds of response that they get at each house? They have a highly labour-intensive way of working, and it would be utterly ridiculous and wasteful for them not to keep track of outcomes, nor to assess the likelihood of future success or failure.

They do keep card records (I'm told by a friend who's a JW elder) of houses called at and the response at each. If you have a notice up asking them not to call, they'll respect that. You can also ask them not to call on you again, and they won't for a couple of years; but then they might try again, in case you've changed your mind, or there's someone new in the house. As far as I know there are no official blacklists, but JWs are human and may be reluctant to call again somewhere where they've had a bad experience.

The very best way to stop them calling, apparently, is to announce that you're a disfellowshipped JW; they're not allowed to associate with anyone who's been disfellowshipped and they'll disappear fast!

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Komensky
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# 8675

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I really like the idea of the OP, that there might be some Biblical and/or theological point(s) about which some meaningful discussion might emerge. But I think, on the whole, it's not going to happen. As SCK already pointed out, they have rehearsed responses, rather than engagement. It is not a dissimilar situation from talking to Scientologists or Mormons. Their positions are so clearly fallacious and based on the most easily debunkable nonsense that you'd think that one might be able to talk them down. But it is now a culture and their very beings are wedded to it. Have a look the survival groups that have emerged from those two religions: they have damaged so many people.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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bib
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# 13074

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My dear late father always won an argument against all comers. I can remember him inviting some religious callers into the loungeroom for a discussion. In the end they were begging to leave. He seemed to experience an evil delight in these experiences. [Devil]

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Custard
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# 5402

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I've had fun with them talking about why Jesus never used the name Jehovah when praying to God. Every time, he uses "Father", except when quoting Ps 22 on the cross.

They claim that the NT manuscripts contained quite a few YHWHs (in Hebrew script), but that they were redacted out and changed to kurios (i.e. Lord) after Nicea - hence all the "confusion" with Jesus as Lord. This despite the fact we have a lot of NT manuscripts prior to Nicea, and not one of them has YHWH in...

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
if the Watchtower (the JW head office / institution) is God's faithful channel of communication for all humanity, then how come they've changed their mind on various positions?

Now that this is in Purg., i want to ask which issues they've changed their mind on.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Now that this is in Purg., i want to ask which issues they've changed their mind on.


Well, for starters, eschatalogical issues.

Though I don't know to what extent they officially changed their mind. As opposed to just having the stated years come along with no prophecy fulfilled, and then retroactively re-writing their claims about what was supposed to happen, while issuing new predictions for another point in the future.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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I guess this section of the article sort of answers my implied question.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
...i want to ask which issues they've changed their mind on.

The main issue I was thinking of is blood transfusions. They seem to have changed their view, then changed it back again; and refined their position on what specific parts of blood are permitted for the JW to receive. There's loads of material on the internet regarding alleged 'doctrinal flip-flops'; try here for starters.

This would all be fine, except that the JW hierarchy claims to speak for God, AIUI, and they severely punish those who act contrary to the official position. They justify the gradual development of their position on a matter by reference to Proverbs 4:18, which says 'The way of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, which shines ever brighter until the full light of day.' But this doesn't explain changing your position and then changing it back again, and it also makes their policy of disfellowshipping those who stray from the official line seem very harsh, IMO. It's perfectly possible for someone to be disfellowshipped after doing something which shortly afterwards becomes the official JW position!

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Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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the problem with establishing the doctrinal flip flops is that it is quite difficult to get hold of early books published by the Witnesses. They honour their founder CT Russel largely by totally ignoring what he taught, which included the place of literal Israel in the plan of God, and the heavenly calling as being for all christians plus many others which they now denounce.

But you should assume they have no idea of any of this.

However, they could fairly point out that changing your view is not an unforgiveable sin.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
However, they could fairly point out that changing your view is not an unforgiveable sin.

Absolutely, if they weren't so intolerant of dissention among their own number. AIUI, if you act in defiance of the official JW position on something (e.g. you accept blood transfusions) or you don't keep quiet about your struggles with some matter of doctrine, then you're at grave risk of being disfellowshipped. Essentially, there's very little room for individual conscience or guidance from God if one is a JW. Which makes those doctrinal flip-flops a very grave matter, IMO.

[ 13. June 2013, 17:41: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]

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Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Emily Windsor-Cragg
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# 17687

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If you quote from Paul's epistles, you just lost the argument.

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

Emily

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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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SCK:

Totally agree.

You are allowed to have doubts and reservations but you must keep them between yourself and the designated spiritual leaders.

I am disfellowshipped as is my brother.

Having a set of beliefs which are required is not just for the JWS, and was clear in a recent post, in the RCC if you totally dissent from one of the articles of faith, you are effectively excommunicated, although they do not enforce this with the military efficiency of the JWs, nor do they extend it beyond witholding communion.

Some would object to this in principle. I'm divided on this one, but the problem with the JWs is the ridiculous level of details they enforce, so you can't disagree even about the details of apocalyptic prophecy.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
SCK:

Totally agree.

You are allowed to have doubts and reservations but you must keep them between yourself and the designated spiritual leaders.

I am disfellowshipped as is my brother.

Now you tell us! Oh man, two things - first, I hope nothing I've been saying has offended or upset you, or been wildly off the mark. I don't personally know any JWs; I've just had ongoing conversations with a few in the past, and read up on the organisation a bit.

Secondly, and much more, importantly, I'm really sorry for both of you. It must be tough, especially if you've been cut off from family and close friends who are still in the organisation.

On the broader point, of course pretty much all religious groups (Christian or not) have some lines of belief and practice that, if crossed, put you at risk of discipline and, ultimately, exclusion. It's not a uniquely JW thing.

Anteater, I'd be interested to find out what scope there is (or was) as a JW in good standing, to explore your own doubts and concerns. You said it has to be kept between you and your spiritual authority but, within that context, how much doubt and discussion is tolerated before you're basically told to accept the position or leave?

I appreciate this might well be quite sensitive for you, so feel free not to reply, or to PM me instead! [Votive]

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anteater

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# 11435

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SCK: Thanks for your thoughts, although I was disfellowshipped over 40 years ago so it's not a problem for me.

And many of my closer friends have left anyway, one who didn't recently died a disillusioned alcoholic. In his case the witnesses were quite enlightened and did not disfellowship him as they viewed it as an illness outside of his control.

Really there is quite a lot of scope do discuss doubts. The witnesses gave me a lot of rope and I was fairly open about my doubts for many years, obviously resonably discretely.

When they finally did me, I had stood outside an assembly distributing a leaflet I co-wrote on the Deity of Christ. So i suppose that's understandable as I was openly trying to convert JWs.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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Truman White
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# 17290

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I take 'em to t.he end of Mark's Gospel and show them that within the true church some people speak in tongues and see the sick healed. Ask 'em if anyone in their church speaks in tongues then press them on why not if they're the true church.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Really there is quite a lot of scope do discuss doubts. The witnesses gave me a lot of rope and I was fairly open about my doubts for many years, obviously resonably discretely.

When they finally did me, I had stood outside an assembly distributing a leaflet I co-wrote on the Deity of Christ. So i suppose that's understandable as I was openly trying to convert JWs.

Oh okay, that's not as strict / controlling as I thought. Distributing 'heretical' leaflets is going to get you chucked out of most organisations though! [Eek!] [Smile]

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I take 'em to t.he end of Mark's Gospel and show them that within the true church some people speak in tongues and see the sick healed. Ask 'em if anyone in their church speaks in tongues then press them on why not if they're the true church.

Except that everything in Mark 16 after verse 8 isn't in the original manuscripts - not that most JWs are likely to know that.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Truman White
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# 17290

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I take 'em to t.he end of Mark's Gospel and show them that within the true church some people speak in tongues and see the sick healed. Ask 'em if anyone in their church speaks in tongues then press them on why not if they're the true church.

Except that everything in Mark 16 after verse 8 isn't in the original manuscripts - not that most JWs are likely to know that.
The passage reflects early Christian experience - or wouldn't have got in there in the first place [Biased]
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leo
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# 1458

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That dependf how late it is and whether those who wrote it were orthodox or heretics.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Emily Windsor-Cragg
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# 17687

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Literalism implies that God is constitutionally and categorically UNABLE to learn from experience.

I doubt that.

I was a JW from 1965-1978, and they refused at that time and refuse to this day, to learn anything NEW.

45 87 99 [Smile]

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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Had my very first JW visit this past Sunday. I'd just come back from church, and when they first started talking I figured they were from some other local church, so immediately said "I'm a Christian, I was just worshipping this morning." The woman (it looked like a couple and their child) said "It's so nice to find someone who has strong beliefs, most of the people around here do not." Then I looked at the flyer and saw the reference to the Watchtower. I told them I am CofE, but I was fairly polite and friendly so I am sure they will be back.

I tore up the newsletter without reading it and threw it away.

Is anyone else afraid to actually engage with them? I don't want to expose myself to their beliefs just for the sake of debate.

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
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# 13814

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I'm a useless debater on any topic, and I don't do proof texts etc.
Anyone who comes I tell 'em I'm a Presbyterian lay preacher (I don't mention that in fact my theology is basically Progressive) and wish them well.
I had some quite sweet LDS on the doorstep once – two young men and a young woman, which I thought unusual – and invited them to pray with me. They bowed their heads politely but I was the only one who did the praying.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mark Betts

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# 17074

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I'm reluctant to be too critical of JWs, since Christianity is more about how we live our lives (we are judged according to our works) than one's mental processes.

Many JWs, I don't doubt, put most of us to shame with their piety. Having said that though, I'd sooner have Mormons visit me as they come across as being more friendly - friendly as in you can get them to dig your garden and trim the edges of your lawn for no charge.

As regards Bible interpretation, here's where Authority comes into play. Their arguments may sound convincing, especially as they are so well rehearsed, but they have no lasting Authority in the way the Church Fathers have.

If we spend all our time arguing over things which were resolved at the first Ecumenical Council, we won't even get past first base.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:


Many JWs, I don't doubt, put most of us to shame with their piety. Having said that though, I'd sooner have Mormons visit me as they come across as being more friendly - friendly as in you can get them to dig your garden and trim the edges of your lawn for no charge.

Could be because Mormon missionaries often seem to be enthusiastic young men from abroad, whereas JW ones are mostly older and settled in the UK. That's my impression.
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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm reluctant to be too critical of JWs, since Christianity is more about how we live our lives (we are judged according to our works) than one's mental processes.

Many JWs, I don't doubt, put most of us to shame with their piety.

Individual JWs show great piety, but the institutional church can be very cruel.

There was a young man who had grown up in my church and then joined the JWs. He had serious psychological problems and ended up committing suicide. The JWs said that since he had committed suicide, he was in hell, and they refused to conduct a funeral for him.

Moo

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm reluctant to be too critical of JWs

I'm not. Anyone who'd let their kid die for want of a blood transfusion is a cunt of the highest order.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Gracie
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# 3870

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I think I've inherited a liking for discussing from JWs from my dad. He used to invite them in and keep them discussing for hours, until they stopped coming back and he assumed he'd been blacklisted. When he later came across a pair in the street he asked if there was any particular reason for them going out two by two. They off course referred him to the texts in the Gospels where Jesus sends out his disciples two by two. My Dad replied, "That's funny, because in my Bible just after that Jesus tells his disciples to stay where they're welcome and shake the dust off their feet from where they aren't. How come you keep knocking on these doors where nobody wants to talk to you, but never come back to see me?"

My favourite passage for discussing with JWs when they start to talk about the "two hopes" is John 17:20-24:

quote:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I usually introduce this by asking if they think it would have been possible for Jesus to pray a prayer that his Father would not have answered...

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Many JWs, I don't doubt, put most of us to shame with their piety.

Well of course they do, they believe there are only 144,000 spots in heaven!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
How come you keep knocking on these doors where nobody wants to talk to you, but never come back to see me?"


This leads me to reflect that people ought to be grateful to the JWs for at least one thing; the practice of sitting down to read and argue about the Bible would quite possibly be dead in the UK if not for them and their door knocking habit. By the sounds of it, very few ordinary Christians would be likely to have such lively discussions around the Bible otherwise, since the general purpose of Bible study now seems to be to smooth over differences and to reach a consensus. There's no such compulsion for an Anglican in conversation with a JW, I suppose!
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Gracie
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# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Many JWs, I don't doubt, put most of us to shame with their piety.

Well of course they do, they believe there are only 144,000 spots in heaven!
Ah but that doesn't worry them so much. All those I've met recently are quite content with an earthly hope.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged


 
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