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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Queen in. God out
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
So, in order to be inclusive and to make everybody feel comfortable, the Girl Guide promise has been changed and God omitted.
The Church wants to be equally as inclusive as the Guide movement. If not more. Should we therefore drop God from the Creed?
How far should we compromise and adjust to be inclusive?
Discuss.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The Church is an organisation that wouldn't exist without God.
The Guides is an organisation that would.
So belief in God is not a prerequisite for being a Guide, and having it in the promise is an artificial bar to membership. Though my daughter's Guide group is sponsored by a ConEvo church: their reaction will be, er, interesting.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
It's a good day for monarchist atheists.
I wonder which phone box they hold their meetings in?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Whoa, the tea is dribbling over the rim into my saucer. That's quite a tempest.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
According to the Daily Mail (which I linked to in the TICTH thread) both the Queen and God are out. Is Her Majesty still in?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Church is an organisation that wouldn't exist without God.
The Guides is an organisation that would.
To be fair, there are probably a couple of CofE priests who reckon that the Church could get along quite well without God.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
According to the email I got last night from Girlguiding UK, the full form is:
quote:
I promise that I will do my best:
To be true to myself and develop my beliefs,
To serve the Queen and my community,
To help other people
and
To keep the (Brownie) Guide Law.
Anyone who takes their news from the Daily Mail deserves to be laughed at.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
According to the Daily Mail (which I linked to in the TICTH thread) both the Queen and God are out.
I knew the England selectors had made a mistake by putting them in at the top of the batting order!
Despite being a GG Instructor for many years (climbing via the Scout Assoc.) I don't know much about them but I assume it is the same situation as the Scouts. The emphasis shifted considerably during the 80s and 90s from one where a muscular Christian (or other religion from the Empire) background was assumed, to one where a soft, fuzzy spirituality was accepted as the basis for a diminished religious content. It was possible for many groups to avoid any religious content whatsoever unless it was stipulated by the sponsoring authority (church/synagogue/mosque etc.). On paper everyone had to admit to a religious affiliation, I left the space blank on my application and CofE was duly recorded to avoid questions from Gilwell, but in reality the Scouts were firmly secular. Much of this was a reaction to the situation in the USA where Scouting remained a religious organization along with flag waving and things that over the past century had become un-British. One forum post on the old Scouting usenet list characterised US Scouting as "God & guns, no girls or gays" and British Scouting as "girls and gays, no God or guns" which oversimplified the point but made a good soundbite.
I think it is a shame if the promise to do your duty to God and the Queen* becomes something more abstract but I think that the benefits of other aspects of scouting and guiding outweigh the loss of the religious aspect. Youth groups seem to adapt to change glacially at times yet at others they follow the latest fads in the blink of an eye without a thought for the long-term picture.
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I would have appreciated this when I was a kid - it's come in about 25 years too late for me.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
The more interesting change to me is the alteration of 'country' to 'community'. This could be regarded as restricting the scope of responsibility to others. E.g. "my community" is my leafy, suburban middle-class community*, so I have no responsibility to the differently coloured/affluent/etc. people in the estate on the other side of town.
(*Let's be honest, that is probably fits the areas where most guide troops are to be found)
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Church is an organisation that wouldn't exist without God.
The Guides is an organisation that would.
So belief in God is not a prerequisite for being a Guide, and having it in the promise is an artificial bar to membership.
Agreed. By the way, here is a link to the news item on the Girlguiding UK website.
I just heard part of a discussion on Radio 5 about this and, not for the first time, found myself having far greater sympathy with the National Secular Society position than with that of the Evangelical Alliance.
The NSS spokesperson was saying it's a good thing, as it creates a level playing field for people of any / no faith. Whereas the EA guy said (I think this is right) that the wording change was symptomatic of the wider agenda to remove Christian faith from public life. Alarmist, slippery-slope nonsense, I thought.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
Go to France. Problem solved.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
Go to France. Problem solved.
Bit drastic to help out with a leisure organisation. 'Sides which, I doubt I'm the only resource in the country that's untappable whilst this unnecessary requirement remains in place.
[ 19. June 2013, 10:00: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
This change acknowledges the shift in conformity over the decades; active religious observance is no longer part of the fabric of received ideas among those who like their children to put on uniforms and pledge oaths to the powerful. Great news for Christians, but I do wonder whether some parents will mistakenly conclude that the values of the organisation have therefore been reformed.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
This change acknowledges the shift in conformity over the decades; active religious observance is no longer part of the fabric of received ideas among those who like their children to put on uniforms and pledge oaths to the powerful. Great news for Christians, but I do wonder whether some parents will mistakenly conclude that the values of the organisation have therefore been reformed.
They're more likely to hope they're no longer going to be dragged out of bed at Stupid O'Clock on Mothering Sunday (Ha! Some special day for Mum when she's the one having to chivvy them all along) to get them to a church they wouldn't normally darken the door of at 9.15am.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Guides is an organisation that would.
To be fair, there are probably a couple of CofE priests who reckon that the Church could get along quite well without God.
I've thought that for years! And since that is exactly what has been happening anyway since churches began, then the differences would be entirely those thought up by people.
The difficulty is that the words associated with belief occupy so much space that it would take a few geniuses to supply enough, really goodsubstitute, sufficiently strong words.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
This change acknowledges the shift in conformity over the decades; active religious observance is no longer part of the fabric of received ideas among those who like their children to put on uniforms and pledge oaths to the powerful.
Indeed. Whereas idolatry of the self and monarch are very much the order of the day in 21st Century Britain.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Church is an organisation that wouldn't exist without God.
I think you will find it has been managing perfectly well for a long long time....
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If the girl guide movement is a Christian organisation, it must include God imv. However, this should always be by invitation rather than imposition, and insisting that anyone states a faith they may not have in order to be included is wrong. The movement ought to be and is open to everyone who wants to engage with it. I applaud the volunteers who work so hard to facilitate it.
I wonder about this 'being true to myself' phrase, which I've noticed has been impressed upon some children in schools, as with 'believe in yourself'. While I can see that it might help to build confidence, at the same time it picks up on and perhaps perpetuates individualism at the expense of the greater good. 'Community' might be read by some to simply mean 'close family and friends' or 'those of my own race/culture/class, etc'. I'd have preferred a phrase which included a duty to the whole human race.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the girl guide movement is a Christian organisation, it must include God imv.
...
Except the Girl Guides as part of the Scouting movement is not Christian except in the sense that it has always included Christians (and in the UK most have been Christian). Officially the members of the movement have three duties
Duty to God which is explicitly defined as not necessarily requiring a belief in God (note for instance that Thailand and Sri Lanka use 'my religion' in their promises). "To be true to myself and develop my beliefs" includes growing in one's religious and ethical understanding (a brownie will have a different level of understanding than a nearly adult guide).
Duty to Others which in this promise includes "To serve the Queen and my community, To help other people". I suspect 'community' is meant to be one of those beliefs that a guide is suppose to develop (does it mean my town/village, my country, my church/synagogue/temple, people of all nations [a guide is a sister to every other guide], the natural world?).
Duty to Self which does run through the promise but note that so does Duty to God since community does include one's religious community.
Personally I would like to see 'Queen' dropped but I suspect that won't happen while the current one is still alive and patron of the Guides. Her heir might be a different matter when he comes to the throne.
btw in the US it is only the Boy Scouts that are so loudly religious (though many and perhaps most troops [except LDS ones] are not). The Girl Scouts are not and have allowed alteration of the word 'God' in their promise for over 20 years.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
Despite being a cleric, and this may surprise some, but the part of the novel promise which interests me most is that which refers to developing 'my beliefs'.
The me-centric world marches on!
Do any other shipmates think this is rather odd, in a uniformed organisation which promotes team spirit etc? Maybe it is just me, but this does seem to be a particularly damp promise now, and suggests that whatever you think or believe is fine and that humanity is the pinnacle of all.
We're now forming a Nazi Guide Unit.
Not really.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
This change acknowledges the shift in conformity over the decades; active religious observance is no longer part of the fabric of received ideas among those who like their children to put on uniforms and pledge oaths to the powerful. Great news for Christians, but I do wonder whether some parents will mistakenly conclude that the values of the organisation have therefore been reformed.
They're more likely to hope they're no longer going to be dragged out of bed at Stupid O'Clock on Mothering Sunday (Ha! Some special day for Mum when she's the one having to chivvy them all along) to get them to a church they wouldn't normally darken the door of at 9.15am.
Oh! I was thinking of those parents who might now consider signing their children up who wouldn't have before.
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Indeed. Whereas idolatry of the self and monarch are very much the order of the day in 21st Century Britain.
I assume you mean the 'be true to myself' bit. I really don't think that children need their egos broken down at a point when they're only beginning to achieve individuation. In fact, to me, the problem with these kinds of organisation, since I successfully fought against being enrolled in one as a child, is the emphasis on suspending one's individuality, and the idea that this is beneficial. I don't think this change of oath is likely to change that much, but it will mean that when the child eventually gets bored and jacks it in, she'll be more likely to be able to frame that as a further development of self, rather than some kind of betrayal of God.
Re: the change of 'country' to 'community', surely an oath to country in a pseudo-military context is more restrictive of one's duty to others than an oath to community? 'Country' in that context either means the government or the armed forces (oh and don't forget the police), whereas community potentially means anyone you come into contact with.
[ 19. June 2013, 12:03: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
...the part of the novel promise which interests me most is that which refers to developing 'my beliefs'.
The me-centric world marches on!
I think this is unfair, likewise Hairy Biker's 'idolatry of the self' criticism. After all, the new Guide Promise still has these phrases in it:
quote:
I promise that I will do my best... To serve... my community [and] [t]o help other people
That doesn't seem very me-centric or self-idolatrous to me.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's one of those irregular verbs:
I think things through for myself and am willing to reject things that I conclude are not true;
You think you know better than The Bible/The Westminster Confession/The Church/Tradition.
He is self-idolatrous.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Here's a little challenge for anyone who thinks the Guides should have kept their promise unchanged, and that religion is an inseparable part of their activities.
The Scouts still have God in their promise. although hopefully not for much longer. Head on over to their website, and see how long it takes you to find any mention of God or religion that isn't a quote or a direct reference to their promise. You'll be a while.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
There is something chilling about the idea that telling children they have a responsibility to develop themselves is encouraging self-worship, as though self-determination were some sort of needless indulgence, or expression of vanity. Chilling, and also short-sighted: it's the neccesary precondition of the only conversions that last.
[ 19. June 2013, 12:57: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I was in the cubs (never made it to the scouts) and I remember having to go to Church on a regular basis. I think it was once a month. Not everyone in the pack went. I seem to remember seeing Brownies there too (though they may have been whatever comes before Brownies).
Does something similar still apply for Scouts / Guides?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the girl guide movement is a Christian organisation, it must include God imv. However, this should always be by invitation rather than imposition, and insisting that anyone states a faith they may not have in order to be included is wrong. The movement ought to be and is open to everyone who wants to engage with it. I applaud the volunteers who work so hard to facilitate it.
Those two highlighted bits seem contradictory. If the Girl Guides are a Christian organization, their membership criteria will necessarily exclude non-Christians. If it's "open to everyone who wants to engage with it", including Muslims, Jews, and assorted other non-Christians, then it's not a "Christian organization".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I was in the cubs (never made it to the scouts) and I remember having to go to Church on a regular basis. I think it was once a month. Not everyone in the pack went. I seem to remember seeing Brownies there too (though they may have been whatever comes before Brownies).
Does something similar still apply for Scouts / Guides?
Generally not. Our lot are meant to attend on Easter Sunday and Mothering Sunday IIRC; the former most of them don't because they're visiting/being visited by rellies/on holiday; the latter is a church full of mums dragged out of bed far too early on the pretext of a service that's about how special they are*
*Yes I do know that it isn't meant to be but we're talking about people whose main understanding of Mothering Sunday comes from the Gospel According to Hallmark and Moonpig. They get a bit disappointed when most of the mentions of "mother" include the name "Mary".
[ 19. June 2013, 13:13: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think things through for myself and am willing to reject things that I conclude are not true;
You think you know better than The Bible/The Westminster Confession/The Church/Tradition.
He is self-idolatrous.
I agree 'self-idolatrous' is a bit hyperbolic, but 'be true to yourself' in my mind invites memories of Erin's (RIP) sig: 'Remember always to be yourself. Unless you suck.'
Historically, the practice in multi-faith bodies that require you to swear an oath was for different faiths to swear separate oaths. (Fun fact of the day: the Polish Army had a separate oath for Muslim soldiers right up to the Second World War, thanks to the Crimean Tatar minority in that country.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
As someone who wouldn't join the Brownies at age 8 because I refused to swear allegiance to the Queen, I'm with Karl here.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
And to think I come here for intelligent debate.
quote:
I promise that I will do my best:
To be true to myself
This is not about self-idolatry, it is about avoiding peer pressure
quote:
and develop my beliefs,
This is about having a moral code.
quote:
To serve the Queen and my community,
To help other people
Community is how one defines it, yeah? But starting local is not about being exclusionary, but adjusting the scope to fit into a child's reasonable scope.
quote:
and
To keep the (Brownie) Guide Law.
They vary slightly, but they are all similar to this.
quote:
A brownie guide thinks of others before herself and does a good turn every day.
Very self-idolatrous.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Anyone who takes their news from the Daily Mail deserves to be laughed at.
No laughing, just a scolding to whomever left them on their own without supervision.
ETA: But I'm sorry, this is more of an "Oh noes, they are hating on God" thread then, isn't it?
[ 19. June 2013, 14:07: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Those two highlighted bits seem contradictory. If the Girl Guides are a Christian organization, their membership criteria will necessarily exclude non-Christians. If it's "open to everyone who wants to engage with it", including Muslims, Jews, and assorted other non-Christians, then it's not a "Christian organization".
Not the way I see it. A Christian organisation may be so because it has a Christian ethos built into its constitution, and still be open to all who want to use whatever it offers regardless of their beliefs. This doesn't mean that they should be quiet about their Christian beliefs, quite the opposite: imv they should be openly Christian, invite all to explore Christianity, and pray openly.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A Christian organisation may be so because it has a Christian ethos built into its constitution, and still be open to all who want to use whatever it offers regardless of their beliefs. This doesn't mean that they should be quiet about their Christian beliefs, quite the opposite: imv they should be openly Christian, invite all to explore Christianity, and pray openly.
Such as with a church-based youth group, perhaps. I suppose the question for people as they responded to the Girlguiding consultation was whether they thought Girlguiding was a Christian organisation in something like the above sense. It seems most respondents answered that question in the negative, preferring Girlguiding to be more explicitly welcoming of girls and young women of any religious persuasion.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Let's keep things civil, please.
My apologies, I should have thought longer on my choice words.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
The Canadian movement has had this promise for years and years and years.
quote:
I Promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law
Good that our former "Mother Country" has caught up.
The Scouts were heading the same way, once. But they've re-affirmed the old promise, once again. Of course, they change the rules every six months or so.* Keep posted.
God is named, but in reality, that can be interpreted any way the scout or the leader wishes. Although I am a practising Christian, I certainly have never insisted that the kids acknowledge God as I see Him.
We even, at one point, had a young citizen of the USSR in our cub pack. He left out God altogether. Those kids who came from another country were allowed to substitute their head of state for HMQ. American scouts were allowed to use the BSA form when making their promise.
The only thing I asked was that if they were leading the group in the Promise, they used the Canadian form.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Not the way I see it. A Christian organisation may be so because it has a Christian ethos built into its constitution, and still be open to all who want to use whatever it offers regardless of their beliefs. This doesn't mean that they should be quiet about their Christian beliefs, quite the opposite: imv they should be openly Christian, invite all to explore Christianity, and pray openly.
Non-Christians welcome as long as they pray to Jesus? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) I think you're having some trouble grasping the implications of the term "non-Christian".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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wheelie racer
Shipmate
# 13854
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Posted
the offical video from the Chief Guide here
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Disability Rights: To boldly go where everyone else has gone..
Posts: 171 | From: off this planet | Registered: Jun 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I wonder what, if any, the differences are between a Christian ethos (mentioned above by Raptor Eye) and a humanist one?
I say humanist, not atheist' because atheism does not have a set of rules or beliefs etc.
[ 19. June 2013, 17:42: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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quetzalcoatl
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Not forgetting Christian humanism, eh?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Raptor Eye
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Non-Christians welcome as long as they pray to Jesus? I think you're having some trouble grasping the implications of the term "non-Christian".
Not at all. Non-Christians are invited to pray to God on many occasions, in schools, in public meetings, in outdoor services as on Remembrance day, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Susan Doris:I wonder what, if any, the differences are between a Christian ethos (mentioned above by Raptor Eye) and a humanist one?
I think that there is a tangible difference in attitude between those who are working for God primarily and those who are working for human beings primarily, even though the former ultimately achieves the latter.
Where the Christian element grows people spiritually so that kindness, patience, gentleness, joy, love etc is in ever greater evidence, this is noticeable to me in the atmosphere.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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shamwari
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The Humanist on Radio 5 this morning argued that keeping the Quesn in is legit because "she exists". (quote)
How is that for a riposte to leaving God out?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
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When I was in Scouting, our oath was something like "Dib dib dib dib by dob dob dob doo".
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Not at all. Non-Christians are invited to pray to God on many occasions, in schools, in public meetings, in outdoor services as on Remembrance day, etc.
And how is praying to an unnamed, non-specific God "explor[ing] Christianity", as you advocate? Is this one of those things where you tell people from other religions that they're really worshiping Jesus but are too ignorant to realize it without a helpful Christian to point it out to them?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Where the Christian element grows people spiritually so that kindness, patience, gentleness, joy, love etc is in ever greater evidence, this is noticeable to me in the atmosphere.
Whereas anyone who's not a Christian is unkind, impatient, ungentle, miserable, and hate-filled? Yeah, I can see why you'd want to keep that sort out of the Girl Guides.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I'd say that Christianity is assumed in many western countries, . . .
Except Raptor Eye is taking it one step further and saying that simply making that assumption isn't good enough and the Guides should be explicitly Christian. I can imagine that a lot of parents from non-Christian faiths would probably reconsider membership for their daughters if they were expected to spend a significant amount of their time there "explor[ing] Christianity".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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Net Spinster
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am very pleased that they have made this change - why were atheists not be allowed to join before unless they told lies when swearing the oath?
There are, however, two reasons why I can't join:
1) I don't agree with having as monarchy
2 I don't fancy a sex change.
My guess is the Girl Guides may reconsider that bit of the promise when the current Queen ceases to be Queen. Elizabeth was a Girl Guide and Ranger and has been patron of the organization since 1952.
On the other I hadn't realized that UK Girl Guiding still restricted adult leadership positions (leader and assistant leader) to women (the US Girl Scouts allow men as co-leaders with a woman and with a few other restrictions [e.g., any overnight trip has to have two adult females]) though adult men can be in other roles in UK Guiding such as unit helpers or teaching specific skills to girls in many different units. Note that non-leadership position do not require the promise.
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spinner of webs
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