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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Wedding Etiquette, Gratitude v. Greed
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Sorry, I took 'the bride may....or the bride and groom may' to indicate only two possible choices. It doesn't say that it's optional, which surprises me since that must be the case.
Reminds me of Most Pathetic Slogan Ever - 'You may get it at Menzies'. Which irresistibly suggests that, equally, you May Not.
So the wording seems to me to mean either may, but neither must.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Under common worship the giving away is optional. If used the brides father does not say anyting just hands over his daughter's hand into the groom's
There is this option in Common Worship, for both sets of parents, that can used and not have the giving away.
N and N have declared their intention towards each other.
As their parents,
will you now entrust your son and daughter to one another
as they come to be married?
Both sets of parents respond:
We will.
Or you can just leave it out altogether..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Firenze: Reminds me of Most Pathetic Slogan Ever - 'You may get it at Menzies'. Which irresistibly suggests that, equally, you May Not.
So the wording seems to me to mean either may, but neither must.
(In Mozambican Portuguese, the way to ask for the time is not Que horas são? [What time is it?] but Que horas pode ser? [What time may it be?]
I always feel an urge to answer: "It may be twenty past three in the afternoon, but it also may be 5 o'clock in the morning..." ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Under common worship the giving away is optional. If used the brides father does not say anyting just hands over his daughter's hand into the groom's
1662 has "The Minister, receiving the Woman at her Father's or Friend's hands..." so nothing to say, and they don't have to be the Dad.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Indeed, Zacchaeus - at our wedding we used the standard Common Worship marriage service, and there was no giving away at all (the giving away blurb was clearly marked as optional). The two of us met up at the church door and walked up the aisle together.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
lilbuddha: quote:
I am less than accepting of invisible culture, though. It is one reason racism, sexism and other issues persist.
That's true, but like cliffdweller I don't think you should immediately jump to the conclusion that the person doing something that seems odd to you *intended* to give offence. Even people from the same culture may have different ideas about what is polite - the fact that this thread has been running for five pages should tell you that.
For example my Other Half wrote my parents a thank-you letter after staying at our house for the first time. They were charmed, but also surprised; he'd already thanked them personally at the end of his stay and they weren't expecting a note as well.
If I'd been the one to go and stay at his parents' house first I would not have sent them a letter afterwards, because it's not something we do in our family. Having been alerted to the difference in family cultures, I did send them a thank-you letter and was saved from a terrible faux pas.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Under common worship the giving away is optional. If used the brides father does not say anyting just hands over his daughter's hand into the groom's
1662 has "The Minister, receiving the Woman at her Father's or Friend's hands..." so nothing to say, and they don't have to be the Dad.
When my daughter was married she was walked down the aisle by her Uncle as her Father was playing the organ.
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
lilbuddha: quote:
I am less than accepting of invisible culture, though. It is one reason racism, sexism and other issues persist.
That's true, but like cliffdweller I don't think you should immediately jump to the conclusion that the person doing something that seems odd to you *intended* to give offence. Even people from the same culture may have different ideas about what is polite - the fact that this thread has been running for five pages should tell you that.
But I do not jump to that conclusion. If my posts seem to have implied this, it is a fault in my phrasing. Indeed, my OP was sparked by the bride's finding offense where there was likely none.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
For example my Other Half wrote my parents a thank-you letter after staying at our house for the first time. They were charmed, but also surprised; he'd already thanked them personally at the end of his stay and they weren't expecting a note as well.
If I'd been the one to go and stay at his parents' house first I would not have sent them a letter afterwards, because it's not something we do in our family. Having been alerted to the difference in family cultures, I did send them a thank-you letter and was saved from a terrible faux pas.
Had you not been aware, and therefore did not send the letter, I do not think it would have been terrible. Not certain it would even be a faux pas, as your expectations and theirs would be different.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
lilbuddha: quote:
I am less than accepting of invisible culture, though. It is one reason racism, sexism and other issues persist.
That's true, but like cliffdweller I don't think you should immediately jump to the conclusion that the person doing something that seems odd to you *intended* to give offence. Even people from the same culture may have different ideas about what is polite - the fact that this thread has been running for five pages should tell you that.
But I do not jump to that conclusion. If my posts seem to have implied this, it is a fault in my phrasing. Indeed, my OP was sparked by the bride's finding offense where there was likely none.
fwiw, I read the above quoted post the precise same way, and indeed am having trouble putting that comment together with this one.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Had you not been aware, and therefore did not send the letter, I do not think it would have been terrible. Not certain it would even be a faux pas, as your expectations and theirs would be different.
It would have exactly been a faux pas - you would have made an inadvertent social error in the relevant social context, which is that of the host in this case.
If you had been aware, but didn't send the letter, it wouldn't have been a faux pas, it would have just been rude.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Mrs. S, practising wearing a hat and heels ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
[tangent]My daughter got married last year and I had to do the same with the heels - Mr Nen was quite taken with idea of me in high heels doing the washing up ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) - but I wore a fascinator, not a hat. I hope you all have a lovely day. [/tangent]
I like all these different ideas about how the bride and groom arrive at the altar. I did the traditional thing of being given away by my dad, and Nenlet1 did the same, but I might rethink things if I was doing it again... Although I guess I wouldn't... It was important to my dad...
Nen - feeling nostalgic.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
lilbuddha: quote:
I am less than accepting of invisible culture, though. It is one reason racism, sexism and other issues persist.
That's true, but like cliffdweller I don't think you should immediately jump to the conclusion that the person doing something that seems odd to you *intended* to give offence. Even people from the same culture may have different ideas about what is polite - the fact that this thread has been running for five pages should tell you that.
But I do not jump to that conclusion. If my posts seem to have implied this, it is a fault in my phrasing. Indeed, my OP was sparked by the bride's finding offense where there was likely none.
fwiw, I read the above quoted post the precise same way, and indeed am having trouble putting that comment together with this one.
I am not sure how to address this as I see no logical inconsistency between those two statements.
One is identifying the source of conflict, the other is the response to that conflict. Thinking people should be more aware of the others they interact with, does not mean I think offense should be taken when they fail to do so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QUOTE
One is identifying the source of conflict, the other is the response to that conflict. Thinking people should be more aware of the others they interact with, does not mean I think offense should be taken when they fail to do so.
Well, but you are using words like "should" and "failure" that seem to denote some level of judgment. That's what is frustrating, and frankly makes me wonder if you have had all that much experience with cross-cultural blunders.
It's not about "being more aware", especially in a global marketplace where there are literally hundreds of different cultures that no one short of an anthropologist could ever hope to know thoroughly. No one can know what they don't know. We can't know what is invisible to us, and "invisible culture" will be invisible -- to both sides--right up until the line is crossed and the faux pas is done. It isn't a failure on anyone's part. It's just the reality that we can't know what we don't know, we can't see what is invisible. And, again, the kind of language you're using to describe the problem only makes it worse, because it makes it harder for people to admit an error has been made.
The best thing we can do is simply acknowledge that invisible culture is a factor in every place, every culture and therefore we need to approach the inevitable cultural blunders with grace and humor, rather than judgment and condemnation. If we don't fill our language with "shoulds" and "oughts" and "failures" that will be a lot easier to do.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I am failing to communicate here. I am not illustrating the concepts well.
All interactions are interpretations. We do start with assumptions, some of those are difficult to see. This does not mean they cannot be seen.
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Taking offense requires a choice, though the level that this is conscious varies.
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I say these statements can be made without implying a judgement. I sense you do not.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Re "giving away" - ten years ago (and possibly more recently, but I can only speak to the situation a decade ago) one Church of Scotland had slightly different ceremonies depending on whether the couple had been Living in Sin prior to the marriage. Good Brides who were, or appeared to be, virgins, were accompanied down the aisle by their father or other relative, but Bad Brides and their Bad Grooms came in together as there was, apparently "nothing left to give away."
The idea was that couples would aspire to the former version, and, dazzled by the prospect of the "Gold Star" ceremony, would eschew all naughtiness and gird up their loins. (Or find a non-batshit-crazy church to get married in.)
The congregation is one of those which have since left the Church of Scotland over the gay clergy issue, so I have no idea what they do now.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Firenze: quote:
Reminds me of Most Pathetic Slogan Ever - 'You may get it at Menzies'. Which irresistibly suggests that, equally, you May Not.
...or that you might as well go straight to Thin's, who have everything. Or did, until they were taken over by Blackwell's.
Lilbuddha, I don't understand the point you're trying to make at all. First of all you say that you disapprove of calling unwritten social rules 'invisible culture' and point out that they are responsible for the perpetuation of racism and sexism; well, we agree that invisible culture can perpetuate racism and sexism, but does it really help to pretend it doesn't exist? You say that everyone should make allowances for cultural misunderstandings. Nobody seems to be arguing with that. Then you say: quote:
All interactions are interpretations. We do start with assumptions, some of those are difficult to see. This does not mean they cannot be seen.
which gets us back to where we started.
You also don't seem to understand the meaning of 'faux pas' - it translates as 'false step'. This may be a helpful way of looking at it. If you literally make a false step and fall over something in your path that you didn't notice, your companions have the options of helping you up, pretending it didn't happen, pointing and laughing as you struggle to get up again or kicking you when you're down. You seem to agree that the last two options are rude. The point cliffdweller and I are trying to get across is that in a cross-cultural misunderstanding, the person making the mistake really doesn't see the boulder until they've fallen over it, because in their culture it doesn't exist. But for the person they're trying to communicate with, the stumbling-block is so obvious it doesn't need to be pointed out.
Yes, you can learn social rules from another culture, but it takes time; and you will probably never be as good at negotiating social encounters as someone who was brought up in it.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am failing to communicate here. I am not illustrating the concepts well.
All interactions are interpretations. We do start with assumptions, some of those are difficult to see. This does not mean they cannot be seen.
They cannot be seen until they are known. And you can't know what you don't know. The kinds of things we're talking about (invisible culture) aren't in guidebooks and aren't something you're going to know to ask (or they'll know to tell you). They're invisible. Generally the only way you're going to find out about a clash with invisible culture is by inadvertently crossing the line.
Which means that cultural blunders are actually good things. They help us understand each other as well as our own invisible culture/assumptions better. Of course, if you stubbornly stick to offensive behavior after it is no longer invisible, then as others pointed out, it's not a faux pas, it's deliberate rudeness. But the initial faux pas are inevitable and the only way the invisible will become visible. Accept that.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Taking offense requires a choice, though the level that this is conscious varies.
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I say these statements can be made without implying a judgement. I sense you do not.
Possibly our own invisible culture clash/ differing assumptions. But when you use words like "should" and "ought" (re things people have no control over) it implies judgement to me. When you directly connect invisible culture with racism and sexism it implies judgment to me. So perhaps those words mean different things to you than they do to me, or perhaps you understand "judgement" differently than I do.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Inevitable clashes. Here is the thing, unless one lives in a culture which is functionally isolated, one will know that all cultures are not the same. One may not know every difference, true. But that is more will than ability. I accept that misunderstandings will happen, regardless. However, I do posit that when one feels offense, it is often avoidable if one attempts to understand. That exploring the why is rarely impossible or unreasonable.
To explain the judgement thing I offer this example.
Racism is a description of a mindset. Calling it good or bad is a judgement. Calling a racist person good or bad, right or wrong is a judgement.
And it is often not black and white.
My Gran is racist. This is a statement of fact, she believes people are different based upon their "race." Her upbringing and experiences inform this, but as rural as her life has been, she does have opportunity to see why this may not be accurate. To her credit* though, she accepts individuals on their own merits.
*Yeah, that one is a judgement.
That I do not think that culture clash need be inevitable does not mean I inherently assign a moral value or judgement to said clashes.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Inevitable clashes. Here is the thing, unless one lives in a culture which is functionally isolated, one will know that all cultures are not the same. One may not know every difference, true. But that is more will than ability. I accept that misunderstandings will happen, regardless. However, I do posit that when one feels offense, it is often avoidable if one attempts to understand. That exploring the why is rarely impossible or unreasonable.
...That I do not think that culture clash need be inevitable does not mean I inherently assign a moral value or judgement to said clashes.
OK, let me just say again, that from my own experiences on both sides of cultural clashes, I strongly believe you are quite wrong. Many/ most of the "invisible culture" misunderstandings are completely inevitable. No amount of education or good intentions will avoid them. And suggesting that they are avoidable, while perhaps not a "judgement" in the most perjorative sense of the term, is at best, unhelpful because it does carry with it a sense of blame. It disincentives precisely the behavior we need-- people willing to take a risk to engage other cultures, knowing they will make mistakes, resolving to deal with those mistakes with grace and good humor.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To explain the judgement thing I offer this example.
Racism is a description of a mindset. Calling it good or bad is a judgement. Calling a racist person good or bad, right or wrong is a judgement.
And it is often not black and white.
My Gran is racist. This is a statement of fact, she believes people are different based upon their "race." Her upbringing and experiences inform this, but as rural as her life has been, she does have opportunity to see why this may not be accurate. To her credit* though, she accepts individuals on their own merits.
*Yeah, that one is a judgement.
Yes. But it's also a more extreme example, one where the clash is probably not inevitable. But there are other, much more subtle examples, where the conflicts are not avoidable.
A more subtle example: when I was in central Africa, it took me weeks to figure out that the people I was living and working among don't say "no". Ever. If you ask a yes/no question, they will always, always answer it "yes". Probably has to do with a sense of innate niceness, a desire to please others. Or something else. Thing is, no guide book told me this, and no guide book told me that Americans are possibly uniquely direct. If the answer is "no" we'll tell you "no"-- if not "hell, no".
All sorts of comic problems resulted from this invisible culture clash. We wandered aimlessly in the wrong direction for miles because we kept asking "is this Kw Road?". We also I'm sure unintentionally offended all sorts of people by our frequent "no's" to requests, questions, invitations, etc.
But we would never know to ask "do you say 'no'?" And they would never think to tell us, "we don't say 'no'". It's the sort of thing we could only find out through trial-and-error. Once we knew, then it was incumbent upon us to use that knowledge and modify out behavior to fit in better with the cultural norm (e.g. we stopped asking yes/no questions). But the initial clash was inevitable and unavoidable.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
lilbuddha: quote:
Here is the thing, unless one lives in a culture which is functionally isolated, one will know that all cultures are not the same.
I think just about everyone on the planet is aware of this, unless there is another tribe lurking somewhere in the depths of Amazonia that nobody else has contacted yet. But knowing that a culture is different from yours and actually interacting with someone from it are two different things. You may know that brides wear red in China instead of white, but did you also know that it is considered rude for someone giving a gift to accept thanks for it without protesting that the gift is unworthy of the recipient? I was quite startled when I encountered that one (where I come from it's not considered polite to say 'Oh, it's not very good quality tea, really' - even if it isn't) - and there are probably all sorts of nuances in how many protests are considered socially acceptable before you allow the recipient to thank you, depending on the relative age and status of giver and recipient. You can't hope to learn all of this in five minutes as an outsider - it takes years.
[ 02. July 2013, 18:41: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Exactly. The examples are boundless. This is what's meant by "invisible culture"-- not the obvious things you'll find in guide books, but the subtle nuances that are so deeply embedded in our innate assumptions on both sides that we aren't aware of them until the line is crossed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I do not feel we are completely disagreeing. I do not wish to impart "a sense of blame" and do not feel I am. Though I am obviously not managing to convey this.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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