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Source: (consider it) Thread: Postponing Sex
Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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OK, these obviously aren’t ideal strategies to keep kids from premarital sex.

But what are?

Presumably even atheists and liberal Christians would rather that their kids didn’t jump straight into sexual relationships as soon as their hormones kick in at twelve, even if they are not concerned about their waiting for marriage.

Sure, we need to teach kids about contraception, avoiding STDs, and resisting overt or covert coercion into having unwanted sex, just in case, because we can’t predict what they might choose to do.

Most of us, however, would rather they put it off as long as possible (in the case of traditional Christians, until marriage) in order for them to learn something about themselves and feelings and relationships first.

Any suggestions about how this might best be done – other than suggesting that they sublimate their energies into belching contests?

[ 22. June 2013, 10:50: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]

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Welease Woderwick

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As one who jumped right in there at age 12 when my hormones kicked in I am perhaps not best qualified to answer. However years later I was charged, as part of my job, with writing a policy document on the subject under a bit of the Guidance and Regulation for the UK Childrens Act 1980.

I firmly believe in education, in a broad sense, being a big part of the answer. Some groups, some people, want to keep kids in ignorance about sex and so on thinking that if they know about it then they'll want to do it all the more, even if the stats refute this completely.

Talk to kids, explain to kids, give them information at a level they can comprehend - talk about responsibility, talk about their rights over their own body, talk about safety, talk about STDs [sensibly, not with the sensationalism of the old army videos on the subject], talk about the importance of respecting their partner[s], talk [particularly to boys] about "no" meaning "NO".

Keep talking to kids, keep reinforcing the point, the information a kid needs at 14 or 15 is not the same as you would give to a 12 year old so don't assume that The Talk is a one off thing.

The kids I wrote the policy document for were a captive audience being kids in the care of the local authority but ALL kids need and deserve good information. Most parents seem to find discussing sexual practice with their kids embarrassing, but the alternative is far worse. Sex is a natural human function so talk about it!

Having said that I am aware that vast numbers of people don't even discuss their own sex lives, even some long term couples often don't talk about it to one another.

We cannot expect kids to act responsibly if they don't have the relevant information and it is ludicrous to have any such expectation.

WW climbs off soapbox and sits back to watch the fun.

--------------------
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Palimpsest
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The article seems to imply they are trying to teach children that sex hurts. I suspect word of mouth by dedicated peer researchers is going to trump this approach.

[Biased]

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Doublethink.
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There is a large amount of specialist information written for intellectually disabled and vulnerable adults. Because they are adults, it includes material about how to identify safe situations and unsafe situations - what to do if you are propositioned by the bus driver etc.

In some ways I this material is a lot more helpful than the material we had about sex at school - which was more of the insert part a into slot b kind. I don't know what sex ed in school nowadays is like, but it needs to go beyond just mechanics and 'you don't have to give in to peer pressure, if someone really loves you they will wait'. For a start that assumes you a) don't want to sleep with the person asking you really, you'd just be doing it to please them and and b) you are only likely to want to sleep with someone you think loves you deeply. Whatever our aspirations, I don't think that is the reality of the situations most people are in when they make this kind of decision..

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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Doubleposting to add:

It would also help if we had a clearer idea of what we do want teens to do with their sex drives.

We don't want them to use pornography. We don't want them to have sexual contact with each other (and even more definitely with anyone significantly younger or older) and a significant proportion of the population would prefer they didn't masturbate either.

(I doubt the latter is a realistic aspiration.)

Then, at 16, they are supposed to have developed good habits of sexual health and judgement, a mature and sensible attitude to their sexual identity and sexual feelings, and some level of sexual skill.

How exactly they are supposed to achieve this overnight transformation is unclear.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Haydee
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OK, mother of 14 & 5 year old girls diving in here...

Listen more than talk.

Provide books relevant to her age, even if she declares them embarrassing and says she's not interested (but then you notice she's reading them when she's in her room on her own). Get books that put sex in the context of relationships, peer pressure, bullying, other teenage issues.

Ask her before the hormones kick in what characteristics she thinks make a good friend. What would be different about a good boy/girlfriend? (Do good friends try & get you to do things you don't want to, or support your choices even if they disagree with them?) Keep asking as she goes through teenage years.

Discuss (especially as a single mum with 2 daughters) what she sees as the difference between boys/girls and men/women. Try to give examples of people she knows that challenge stereotypical views.

Try and answer questions honestly. Use your own experiences but without details.

Discuss peer pressure, along with some stupid decisions/mistakes you made (there's usually an embarrassing hairstyle/clothing photo somewhere in your past).

Handle the mistakes she makes (small or big) as calmly as possible. Model how to deal with them in the way you react to your own mistakes (say sorry, put right what you can, learn from it, move on).

Recognise times she handles a difficult situation well, and give specific praise (it was really mature to do XYZ instead of ABC).

Try & see your job as a parent as helping your child work out their values, beliefs and interests and use that as a base for choice of school subjects, possible careers, friends she makes etc etc. Be open about your own values, beliefs, and interests without insisting she agrees with you.

My elder daughter has just got her first 'boyfriend' - a boy in her class. He is allowed to walk her home from school up to the gate, but not to come in (I get home a bit later). I've encouraged her to invite him round at the weekend while I'm here (he hasn't been yet, apparently he's scared to meet me!). I've said she can't visit his house until I've met him, and then it will be at the invitation of his mother while she's around. This is a new situation for her so I'm setting a lot of boundaries while she finds her feet, but being positive about this new step in her life.

One of her friends is pregnant at 14, which has given us lots of opportunities to talk about unsupervised parties, the effects of alcohol on judgement, contraception, how a baby affects your life etc I don't criticise her friend. I an open that I think she made some bad choices and that will have a big impact of her life and opportunities, but we also talk about why her friend may have made those choices.

In the end I can't make her postpone sex until the moment I think is appropriate. I can try to make sure that she has the information, support and self-confidence not to be pressured or tricked into having sex. I can provide a level of supervision that allows increasing freedom in small steps, so she can learn how to handle it. I can encourage (and try to model) my values and beliefs.

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
a significant proportion of the population would prefer they didn't masturbate either.

The what now?

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Porridge
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Working with adults with disabilities, I too wish that sex ed included more discussion of the powerful emotions which accompany sex drive and less "tab A into slot B" stuff.

I also wish that the surrounding society (especially folks' families) would stop blinding themselves to the fact that people with disabilities have (and are entitled to) sex drives.

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Raptor Eye
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I like this from the article:

"But we tell the full story too - there are emotional dangers in committing yourself to a sexual relationship and the best way to protect yourself medically and emotionally is abstinence."

Is virginity a greater gift to a partner in marriage than a 'level of sexual skill?' Learning together adds to the fun, doesn't it?

It's the attitude of both parents and society that will influence them the most. If they receive the message that they're expected to have sex with several partners before finding 'the right one' they are likely to do so as soon as the first attractive opportunity arises. If they receive the message that they're expected to wait until they're married, they are less likely to begin early.

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Boogie

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Once my boys were 18 I didn't deter them at all, I bought them double beds and welcomed their girlfriends to stay any time.

Before that I kind of assumed they were not adults so not 'doing it' - in other words turning a blind eye as my parents did with me.

It certainly worked with me. Although I was sexually active young (16) I also quickly learned to be responsible and sensible about it.

I don't believe there is anything wrong whatever with adult, consensual pre-marital sex.

As for teenagers I would agree entirely with WW.

After all, if they are free to be out and about unsupervised then they will 'do it' permission granted or not!

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sebby
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In an area which I have worked, sex has not been the problem - but marriage has. The carrot was dangled of heavily subsidized married accomodation, so many would jump at the possibllity and if appearances were anything to go by, marry just about anything.

If only they wuold have restricted them selves to protective sex, they would have avoided the almost inevitable CSA battles, unhappiness and complication of being coupled too early.

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Kaplan Corday
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Thanks a lot Haydee for reminding me of what a crappy parent I was!

Seriously, you seem to be doing a fantastic job, and while nothing we do can guarantee outcomes for our kids - they are not infallibly programmable - if things don't work out for your two, it won't be your fault.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I like this from the article:

"But we tell the full story too - there are emotional dangers in committing yourself to a sexual relationship and the best way to protect yourself medically and emotionally is abstinence."

Is virginity a greater gift to a partner in marriage than a 'level of sexual skill?' Learning together adds to the fun, doesn't it?

It's the attitude of both parents and society that will influence them the most. If they receive the message that they're expected to have sex with several partners before finding 'the right one' they are likely to do so as soon as the first attractive opportunity arises. If they receive the message that they're expected to wait until they're married, they are less likely to begin early.

Actually, that's just not true. The countries with the most open sex education, where it is not expected that people wait until marriage to have sex are the countries where people actually wait the longest to have sex, despite often having quite low ages of consent. Places with abstinence-only sex education have very high rates of underage sex. People should wait until marriage to have sex if they want to, not because they feel pressured into doing so from society. How is that any better than the pressure to have sex from the moment they hit 16?

Virginity is not something to 'gift' anyone, and that idea is dangerous in reducing personal agency over one's body, as if our bodies belong to others. This is particularly dangerous for young women, where purity culture can morph into rape culture very easily. Call me crazy, but I believe in equipping people to make the best and healthiest decisions for themselves, not others. That means sex with the person they want, when they are ready and not before, and not feeling pressured by their peers/society/the church etc to do things they feel uncomfortable with, whether that's having sex or being abstinent. Sex is supposed to be fun, not put on a pedestal.

As for sex education, let's not forget about teaching young people about non-penetrative and non-heterosexual sex. Mutual masturbation is fun and less risky than PIV (penis in vagina) sex.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Evensong
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Oh look. Another thread on sex by Kaplan Corday. How unusual.

[ 22. June 2013, 12:30: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually, that's just not true. The countries with the most open sex education, where it is not expected that people wait until marriage to have sex are the countries where people actually wait the longest to have sex, despite often having quite low ages of consent. Places with abstinence-only sex education have very high rates of underage sex. People should wait until marriage to have sex if they want to, not because they feel pressured into doing so from society. How is that any better than the pressure to have sex from the moment they hit 16?

Virginity is not something to 'gift' anyone, and that idea is dangerous in reducing personal agency over one's body, as if our bodies belong to others. This is particularly dangerous for young women, where purity culture can morph into rape culture very easily. Call me crazy, but I believe in equipping people to make the best and healthiest decisions for themselves, not others. That means sex with the person they want, when they are ready and not before, and not feeling pressured by their peers/society/the church etc to do things they feel uncomfortable with, whether that's having sex or being abstinent. Sex is supposed to be fun, not put on a pedestal.

As for sex education, let's not forget about teaching young people about non-penetrative and non-heterosexual sex. Mutual masturbation is fun and less risky than PIV (penis in vagina) sex.

There was no suggestion in my post that I was speaking only about female virginity, that I was advocating a lack of education, or that I was suggesting that people should be pressurised one way or another. Societal attitudes influence people. They particularly influence young people. An attitude of expectation that they will have sex, and it's a good thing to have sex so that they might learn techniques, before forging a stable relationship rather than afterwards, provides sufficient influence for young people to follow it whether they are ready or not.

Sex is supposed to be fun, but it is also something not to be taken lightly.

I agree with the comment above that marriage with financial or other enticements also might provide a harmful influence. I use the word 'marriage' loosely, not to imply a ceremony as much as a serious commitment to a long-term relationship on both sides.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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L'organist
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Why do we want to "keep kids from premarital sex"? And if its just "kids" at what age is a person deemed to go from being a "kid" to becoming an adult? The age of voting? The age of sexual consent? The age at which they can join the military? Marry without parental consent? Drink alcohol?

Before talking about "strategies" it would be more honest to examine why some parts of society seem hell-bent on stopping not just teens but people unmarried from having any kind of experience of physical love.

Some parts of the church - and some churches, come to that - are obsessed with sex and spend an inordinate amount of time banging on about the sex lives of all and sundry.

IMO one should NEVER talk to children OF ANY AGE about "sex". Instead give them factual information as and when they raise the subject about procreation and don't lump "sex" in with that. As you bring-up your progeny the responsible parent should always discuss with them appropriate behaviour and emotions - and answer questions relating to these factually and honestly.

When the child raises the subject of sex as part of a friendship or relationship, then you have your cue to give them information. I would suggest the following:
  • "having sex" can be a pretty sterile experience - don't do "it" just because you think you should
  • older people may be wiser when they refer to "making love" because good sex involves and brings about emotions which you may not feel before or wish to have for that person
  • first-time sex can be a pretty embarassing thing so you need to be comfortable with the other person seeing you naked, hearing squelches, etc; if you're too embarrassed at the thought of them seeing you naked you aren't ready for sex
  • sex /making love is best when you are both relaxed - don't handicap yourself with the threat of parents returning home unexpected, etc
  • the great outdoors is not necessarily the best place to consummate your love...
  • the decision to have sex with someone is not one that should be made by your group of friends - after all, they won't be in the bed with you (or will they?)
  • putting on a condom is difficult - try it on your own and then imagine trying to do it with an audience...
  • whether or not your relationship includes sex is not something that should be shared with your mates or bragged about
  • you may end up having sex and wishing you hadn't so if in doubt DON'T

As for the whole pre-marital sex thing - I'd far rather my children married someone they knew warts-and-all, including sexually. Sexual incompatibility is devastating and destroys lives.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Oh look. Another thread on sex by Kaplan Corday. How unusual.

And yet another one based on a beatup in a Murdoch rag at that. How many self-stereotypes can fit in one OP?

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually, that's just not true. The countries with the most open sex education, where it is not expected that people wait until marriage to have sex are the countries where people actually wait the longest to have sex, despite often having quite low ages of consent. Places with abstinence-only sex education have very high rates of underage sex. People should wait until marriage to have sex if they want to, not because they feel pressured into doing so from society. How is that any better than the pressure to have sex from the moment they hit 16?

Virginity is not something to 'gift' anyone, and that idea is dangerous in reducing personal agency over one's body, as if our bodies belong to others. This is particularly dangerous for young women, where purity culture can morph into rape culture very easily. Call me crazy, but I believe in equipping people to make the best and healthiest decisions for themselves, not others. That means sex with the person they want, when they are ready and not before, and not feeling pressured by their peers/society/the church etc to do things they feel uncomfortable with, whether that's having sex or being abstinent. Sex is supposed to be fun, not put on a pedestal.

As for sex education, let's not forget about teaching young people about non-penetrative and non-heterosexual sex. Mutual masturbation is fun and less risky than PIV (penis in vagina) sex.

There was no suggestion in my post that I was speaking only about female virginity, that I was advocating a lack of education, or that I was suggesting that people should be pressurised one way or another. Societal attitudes influence people. They particularly influence young people. An attitude of expectation that they will have sex, and it's a good thing to have sex so that they might learn techniques, before forging a stable relationship rather than afterwards, provides sufficient influence for young people to follow it whether they are ready or not.

Sex is supposed to be fun, but it is also something not to be taken lightly.

I agree with the comment above that marriage with financial or other enticements also might provide a harmful influence. I use the word 'marriage' loosely, not to imply a ceremony as much as a serious commitment to a long-term relationship on both sides.

Stable relationship is not the same as marriage - not all stable relationships are legally able to become marriage as we know from Dead Horses.

Do you honestly not think that there's a middle ground between waiting until marriage and having sex purely to 'improve technique'? Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique, they have sex because they love the person they're having sex with. They don't love the person any less just because it's not necessarily a long term relationship.

Also, you've just ignored my points about societal expectations and the age when people have sex. As I said, those places where it is expected that people will wait until marriage generally have high rates of underage sex. So how then does a societal expectation that people will wait until marriage actually work? In practice, it doesn't at all and just has the opposite effect.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Stable relationship is not the same as marriage - not all stable relationships are legally able to become marriage as we know from Dead Horses.

Do you honestly not think that there's a middle ground between waiting until marriage and having sex purely to 'improve technique'? Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique, they have sex because they love the person they're having sex with. They don't love the person any less just because it's not necessarily a long term relationship.

Also, you've just ignored my points about societal expectations and the age when people have sex. As I said, those places where it is expected that people will wait until marriage generally have high rates of underage sex. So how then does a societal expectation that people will wait until marriage actually work? In practice, it doesn't at all and just has the opposite effect.

I would argue that there was not a high rate of underage sex in the generation who are now older people in the UK, despite the fact that sex education was abysmal or absent. This flies in the face of your idea that sex education equates to later sex, and that an expectation of abstinence equates to earlier sex. There may be more factors at play in the statistics you are drawing from.

I disagree that people only have sex with people they love. Some will have sex with anyone willing. Self respect as well as respect for others is something to be fostered and encouraged, by society.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique, they have sex because they love the person they're having sex with. They don't love the person any less just because it's not necessarily a long term relationship.


I wonder if love can be quantified in a linear fashion? If so, then loving someone for 6 months and then splitting up must by definition involve less love than loving someone for 10 years and then splitting up.

quote:
Those places where it is expected that people will wait until marriage generally have high rates of underage sex. So how then does a societal expectation that people will wait until marriage actually work? In practice, it doesn't at all and just has the opposite effect.

I believe quite strongly in pre-marital abstinence, but I also accept that in current Western (and many non-Western societies) societies, it can never be the cultural norm. Messages of sexual license reach children from almost every angle, and it must be impossible for a few awkward chats with parents or teachers to overturn all of that. The decision to remain chaste must now be mostly down to personal inclination and quite specific personal and social circumstances.

I read somewhere that in some American schools it's been shown that abstinence clubs are more successful at preventing teenaged sex when they remain part of a school subculture, rather than when the whole school jumps on the bandwagon. That's a very interesting finding.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Unusual and informative re the link in OP. I didn't know burping led to orgasm.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Stable relationship is not the same as marriage - not all stable relationships are legally able to become marriage as we know from Dead Horses.

Do you honestly not think that there's a middle ground between waiting until marriage and having sex purely to 'improve technique'? Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique, they have sex because they love the person they're having sex with. They don't love the person any less just because it's not necessarily a long term relationship.

Also, you've just ignored my points about societal expectations and the age when people have sex. As I said, those places where it is expected that people will wait until marriage generally have high rates of underage sex. So how then does a societal expectation that people will wait until marriage actually work? In practice, it doesn't at all and just has the opposite effect.

I would argue that there was not a high rate of underage sex in the generation who are now older people in the UK, despite the fact that sex education was abysmal or absent. This flies in the face of your idea that sex education equates to later sex, and that an expectation of abstinence equates to earlier sex. There may be more factors at play in the statistics you are drawing from.

I disagree that people only have sex with people they love. Some will have sex with anyone willing. Self respect as well as respect for others is something to be fostered and encouraged, by society.

Ha! There was absolutely plenty of pre-marital sex at least, if not underage sex, in previous generations in the UK. Pre-marital sex has always been common, it's just that up until the modern era marriage ceremonies were so informal for most people that it didn't matter.

However, for example in the Netherlands, they have the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe and young people choose to have sex later than anywhere else in Europe. Sex education is comprehensive and started early, and given that the age of consent is 12, I don't think it's expected that they will wait until marriage. Please explain how this has totally failed the Dutch!

Also, please point out where I said that people only have sex with people they love? I just said that of *the people I know* who are having sex, it's with people they love. I agree that self-respect should be taught and fostered by society, but that happens more often where it's not assumed/expected that people will wait until marriage to have sex. Indeed, where societal expectations of saving sex for marriage and sexual 'purity' exist, the social and sometimes legal penalties for pre-marital sex foster a very unhealthy culture of a total lack of self-respect - 'gifting' someone your virginity is surely indicative of this. Your body belongs to you and you alone is a far better message. While you are not gender-specific in your aims, women are proportionally affected much more by this - I mean, there's a reason father-daughter 'purity balls' exist and mother-son ones don't.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Oh look. Another thread on sex by Kaplan Corday. How unusual.

Do you have something to add to the conversation?

--------------------
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique, they have sex because they love the person they're having sex with. They don't love the person any less just because it's not necessarily a long term relationship.


I wonder if love can be quantified in a linear fashion? If so, then loving someone for 6 months and then splitting up must by definition involve less love than loving someone for 10 years and then splitting up.

quote:
Those places where it is expected that people will wait until marriage generally have high rates of underage sex. So how then does a societal expectation that people will wait until marriage actually work? In practice, it doesn't at all and just has the opposite effect.

I believe quite strongly in pre-marital abstinence, but I also accept that in current Western (and many non-Western societies) societies, it can never be the cultural norm. Messages of sexual license reach children from almost every angle, and it must be impossible for a few awkward chats with parents or teachers to overturn all of that. The decision to remain chaste must now be mostly down to personal inclination and quite specific personal and social circumstances.

I read somewhere that in some American schools it's been shown that abstinence clubs are more successful at preventing teenaged sex when they remain part of a school subculture, rather than when the whole school jumps on the bandwagon. That's a very interesting finding.

Regarding the first point, people split up for all sorts of reasons, and plenty of those reasons are not due to the volume of love within the relationship.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
People split up for all sorts of reasons, and plenty of those reasons are not due to the volume of love within the relationship.

True. But sooner or later, if you're not with someone you'll either stop loving them, or else the nature of your love will become quite different. If one or the other of these outcomes didn't happen then people would never be able to start new romantic relationships after terminating previous ones.

[ 22. June 2013, 14:06: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Unusual and informative re the link in OP. I didn't know burping led to orgasm.

Some us can remember the "Pepsi, for those who think young" ad campaign of some years ago.

*end of flippant tangent*

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Welease Woderwick

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Sticking my head above the parapet here but...

I have had several relationships in my lifetime that I would say qualify as loving and long term relationships AND I have also at times a penchant for casual sex, no emotional involvement, just having fun together. I could never honestly tell someone otherwise and I could never condemn anyone for doing the same. As someone said higher up the thread sex is, or should be, fun and I see no problem in sharing the fun.

Would I tell someone below the age of consent this?

Not sure but if they asked me a direct question it would be dishonest to deny it.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique...

Sure you do. But, clearly they are not going to tell you about it.

The facts remain: some very gratifying acts take practice to get right. And, you know what they say about practice.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique...

Sure you do. But, clearly they are not going to tell you about it.

The facts remain: some very gratifying acts take practice to get right. And, you know what they say about practice.

Of course practicing sex improves technique, but these things call emotions also happen - feeling horny is generally more of an incentive to have sex than wanting to improve technique.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nobody I know has sex just to improve technique...

Sure you do. But, clearly they are not going to tell you about it.
"Feeling like a go tonight?"

"Not really."

"Me neither. But it would be good to improve our technique, probably."

"Yeah, that's true. All right then. Put on some nice music and I'll see what I can do."

"Wear that red thing, wouldja? That might get my motor running."

"Sure. Let me brush my teeth."

"Yeah, I should do that too."

[ 22. June 2013, 15:30: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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lilBuddha
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I do not have a moral* objection to premarital sex. Practically speaking, I do have some cautions. Disease and pregnancy being major issues.
-----------------
It is a myth that sex is better in a relationship. Any individual sex act is best with a skilled partner.** Sex with within a relationship has the potential to be terrific and to be horrible. Not to mention perfunctory and boring. Sex in a relationship is not simply a physical act, the rest of the relationship is in bed with you. And, like the rest if the relationship, requires maintenance.
Cultural baggage makes the whole thing worse, IMO.
To be clear, I am not promoting, willy-nilly casual sex, but the myths serve no purpose.
-------------
Sorry, WW
quote:
Not sure but if they asked me a direct question it would be dishonest to deny it.
Research shows honesty about one's foibles is the worst form of prevention.

*appeal to a moral code is problematic as even your children may not share yours.
**practice does not always make perfect. Dancing every day dies not guarantee you will make the cut at the Bolshoi.

Oh, and lest you think I am a complete tramp, much of my observation is gathered listening to people talk about their sex lives. Oh gods, why do they have to talk? Make it Stop!
Here is a thought, you want your children to wait on sex? Make a porno of your sex life. Make them watch the whole thing.
Be ready to fund monasteries and convents to handle the influx, though.

--------------------
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Hallellou, hallellou

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angelfish
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I waited until I was married because my parents had been very open with me in discussing the emotional side of sex and I therefore decided that I wanted to have only one sexual partner, and that would be someone completely committed to relationship with me.

I love the specialness of tthis thing that is only between the two of us. As for "perfecting technique ", that has been a lot of fun too and after nearly 13 years, he's getting pretty good at it. [Biased]

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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

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Pomona
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Of course, even when one is ready to have sex, that's no guarantee that others are ready to have sex with you, which also postpones sex.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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The Silent Acolyte

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mousethief, don't forget the shower.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
mousethief, don't forget the shower.

They need to hurry and get it done while they're still not in the mood.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Of course, even when one is ready to have sex, that's no guarantee that others are ready to have sex with you, which also postpones sex.

'tis why god gave us handses.

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
I waited until I was married because my parents had been very open with me in discussing the emotional side of sex and I therefore decided that I wanted to have only one sexual partner, and that would be someone completely committed to relationship with me.

For a good part of the world, this is aspirational. Those who've been sexually abused. Those who needed the comfort of something, which maybe isn't ideally sex, but sex is part of.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a myth that sex is better in a relationship. Any individual sex act is best with a skilled partner.**

This is true if ALL there is to sex is the physical sensations. But you go on to admit that's not the case, so I'm puzzled.

quote:
Sex with within a relationship has the potential to be terrific and to be horrible.
As does sex outside a relationship; this is a wash. I think when people say "sex is better in a relationship" they are referring to sex with someone of exactly the same skill level. It's obvious that the physical sensations will be better with someone that knows what they're doing than with a bumbling neophyte. But that's not the issue. It's those extra bits, the things that the relationship brings to the table (well, to the bed) that make it better above and beyond the physical skill/sensations.

Sex as a part of a loving and committed relationship is better (physical sensations being the same) than sex with a person who wants to get their rocks off (either for one night or for a few weeks) and use you to do so (and vice versa).

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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lilBuddha
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MT,
What I was attempting to say is that we are often sold the bill of goods that it is simply being in a relationship which makes sex better. I do not think it is a wash, though. One has the same expectations of sex in a relationship that one has of the relationship. And for either to be good, effort and maintenance are needed. And, IME, simply loving or caring about the other person isn't always enough. In many western cultures there is the fairy tale expectation.
In a wham, bam, thank you ma'am situation the expectations are typically lower.
To be honest, my experience with casual sex is rather narrow. I tend to prefer relationships. However, observation still supports my stance, at least IMO.
So, to me, the best would be a loving, caring relationship in which the participants took the effort. But experience tells me this is the case far less than many would like.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, IME, simply loving or caring about the other person isn't always enough. In many western cultures there is the fairy tale expectation.

True.

quote:
In a wham, bam, thank you ma'am situation the expectations are typically lower.
You put less in, you get less out. Thing is, in a non-relationship situation, you can only put so much in. If you put any more in, then you are crossing over into relationship territory. In the relationship, you can put just as much in as the casual boinkers, and a whole lot more.

quote:
So, to me, the best would be a loving, caring relationship in which the participants took the effort. But experience tells me this is the case far less than many would like.
I don't doubt you are right. And some relationship models positively encourage not taking the effort. Typically this is in churches where there is the idea that women were created solely to please men. That level of selfishness in one partner (nearly always the men in modern western cultures) probably (I say probably but I have no doubts in my mind) reduces the actual physical pleasure, as well as the potential emotional/relational pleasure, of both spouses.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would argue that there was not a high rate of underage sex in the generation who are now older people in the UK, despite the fact that sex education was abysmal or absent. This flies in the face of your idea that sex education equates to later sex, and that an expectation of abstinence equates to earlier sex.

No. Contraception was less easily available.

A room to go to was less freely available.

Teenage pregnancy statistics are easily available that show the correlation between good and early sex education and the delay of first sex.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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angelfish
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
I waited until I was married because my parents had been very open with me in discussing the emotional side of sex and I therefore decided that I wanted to have only one sexual partner, and that would be someone completely committed to relationship with me.

For a good part of the world, this is aspirational. Those who've been sexually abused. Those who needed the comfort of something, which maybe isn't ideally sex, but sex is part of.
Yeah, but the OP is about how we encourage our children to postpone sex. This is how my parents encouraged me to do that and i did. I can't stop child abuse and I can't help everyone who feels lonely, but I can give my children enough information about what sex does to your mind and emotions that they will realise its power and hopefully make good decisions around it. Also, make sure they don't have those emotional gaps that sex rushes in to fill. I think it is John Eldredge who says that often young people having multiple partners are asking the question "am I beautiful?" or "am I worthwhile?". We need to open our children to the heart of God, to help them know how beautiful and worthwhile they are so that they don't need to ask those questions.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
I waited until I was married because my parents had been very open with me in discussing the emotional side of sex and I therefore decided that I wanted to have only one sexual partner, and that would be someone completely committed to relationship with me.

For a good part of the world, this is aspirational. Those who've been sexually abused. Those who needed the comfort of something, which maybe isn't ideally sex, but sex is part of.
Yeah, but the OP is about how we encourage our children to postpone sex. This is how my parents encouraged me to do that and i did. I can't stop child abuse and I can't help everyone who feels lonely, but I can give my children enough information about what sex does to your mind and emotions that they will realise its power and hopefully make good decisions around it. Also, make sure they don't have those emotional gaps that sex rushes in to fill. I think it is John Eldredge who says that often young people having multiple partners are asking the question "am I beautiful?" or "am I worthwhile?". We need to open our children to the heart of God, to help them know how beautiful and worthwhile they are so that they don't need to ask those questions.
No prophet said sexual abuse, not child abuse. Plenty of adults are sexually abused.

And what about young people with multiple partners who just enjoy having sex? Yes, sex shouldn't be used to fill an emotional gap but believe it or not, some people just enjoy having sex for the sake of it without emotions having to get in the way.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:


And what about young people with multiple partners who just enjoy having sex? Yes, sex shouldn't be used to fill an emotional gap but believe it or not, some people just enjoy having sex for the sake of it without emotions having to get in the way.

You might find it difficult to get Christian parents to encourage their children to enjoy emotion-free sex. I can't see the theological justification for it at all, but then I'm not a theologian.

Parents should advise their children to be aware of the difference between love and lust, to respect other people's emotional stability, to look after their sexual health and to avoid creating unwanted children. But this isn't the same as telling your kids to go ahead and have a grand old time with multiple partners.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would argue that there was not a high rate of underage sex in the generation who are now older people in the UK, despite the fact that sex education was abysmal or absent. This flies in the face of your idea that sex education equates to later sex, and that an expectation of abstinence equates to earlier sex.

No. Contraception was less easily available.

A room to go to was less freely available.

Teenage pregnancy statistics are easily available that show the correlation between good and early sex education and the delay of first sex.

Statistics don't always tell it like it is, as people can make direct connections which may require separate links. There may have been a fear of pregnancy, for example, and a lack of opportunity, as you have suggested. There may also have been a conviction that it was the wrong thing to do. They say that girls who had sex were thought of as inferior and called names, another factor.

On the other hand, sex education in Britain has done nothing to delay early sex, quite the opposite going by young pregnancy rates. Perhaps the societal attitudes in the countries from which the statistics are taken feed into the results too.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:


And what about young people with multiple partners who just enjoy having sex? Yes, sex shouldn't be used to fill an emotional gap but believe it or not, some people just enjoy having sex for the sake of it without emotions having to get in the way.

You might find it difficult to get Christian parents to encourage their children to enjoy emotion-free sex. I can't see the theological justification for it at all, but then I'm not a theologian.

Parents should advise their children to be aware of the difference between love and lust, to respect other people's emotional stability, to look after their sexual health and to avoid creating unwanted children. But this isn't the same as telling your kids to go ahead and have a grand old time with multiple partners.

I'm not talking about encouraging it, I'm just talking about acknowledging the fact. Speaking as a Christian, I would have no problem with a child of mine having safe, enjoyable sex with multiple partners if that's what they wanted. It's their body, not mine.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would argue that there was not a high rate of underage sex in the generation who are now older people in the UK, despite the fact that sex education was abysmal or absent. This flies in the face of your idea that sex education equates to later sex, and that an expectation of abstinence equates to earlier sex.

No. Contraception was less easily available.

A room to go to was less freely available.

Teenage pregnancy statistics are easily available that show the correlation between good and early sex education and the delay of first sex.

Statistics don't always tell it like it is, as people can make direct connections which may require separate links. There may have been a fear of pregnancy, for example, and a lack of opportunity, as you have suggested. There may also have been a conviction that it was the wrong thing to do. They say that girls who had sex were thought of as inferior and called names, another factor.

On the other hand, sex education in Britain has done nothing to delay early sex, quite the opposite going by young pregnancy rates. Perhaps the societal attitudes in the countries from which the statistics are taken feed into the results too.

Sex education in the UK is still quite patchy and starts too late, not to mention too much focus on the mechanics - and Scottish RC schools still get away with abstinence-only sex ed, the worst kind of sex education for teenage pregnancy prevention. Compared to the sex ed in Scandinavia, the Netherlands etc Britain does pretty poorly, although we are of course miles ahead of the US.

But you can rest assured that even in the mythical golden age of sexually conservative Britain, teenagers + hormones = teenage, pre-marital sex.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Speaking as a Christian, I would have no problem with a child of mine having safe, enjoyable sex with multiple partners if that's what they wanted. It's their body, not mine.

Yes, but you're a theologian. Anglican theologians and liberal clerics can be laid-back about this sort of thing, but ordinary churchgoers who want to retain the respect of fellow church members probably have to be more circumspect!! [Biased]

And we're talking about minors here, not adults.

[ 22. June 2013, 21:16: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Speaking as a Christian, I would have no problem with a child of mine having safe, enjoyable sex with multiple partners if that's what they wanted. It's their body, not mine.

Yes, but you're a theologian. Anglican theologians and liberal clerics can be laid-back about this sort of thing, but ordinary churchgoers who want to retain the respect of fellow church members probably have to be more circumspect!! [Biased]

And we're talking about minors here, not adults.

Sorry? I'm not a theologian, or a liberal cleric. Since when did a Christian have to be a theologian or liberal cleric to not be conservative regarding sex? [Confused] Also, what does it matter if fellow church members disapprove? It's none of their business what somebody else does with their sex life - that goes for anyone, church family is not excluded from this. Edited to ask how the other churchgoers would even know about my hypothetical child's sex life? Do some churches grill people about what they do with their genitals? How very strange. I have no idea what the other people in my church do with their sex life and I really don't need to know.

Naturally, I would only be OK with a child of mine who was the age of consent or over having fun, safe, fully-consenting sex with multiple partners. For children under the age of consent, obviously the legal trouble them and/or their partner could get into would hopefully be enough of a deterrent - and if they were really emotionally ready for sex but just underage, I'd steer them towards mutual masturbation and similar activities (assuming these aren't illegal?). Keeping them fully informed of safe sex and not presuming their partner is of a different gender to them, of course. This is all theoretical of course, and the person who is really ready to have sex while under the age of (UK) consent is quite rare but they do exist.

[ 22. June 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Oh look. Another thread on sex by Kaplan Corday. How unusual.

Downright creepy I would have said, because no-one else ever gives it a thought - and neither they should!
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
based on a beatup in a Murdoch rag at that.

OK, got it: an issue, however valid in itself, cannot be raised if it is referred to in any way in a Murdoch publication.

That's of course in addition to always double-checking the date and weather in any Murdoch paper.

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