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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It's Ramadan don't you know...
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
What are they then? I'm afraid I'm not quite following the point you're trying to make.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
The point is simply that it isn't fascism, or anything like it.
Fundamentalism, maybe, but certainly not fascism.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
The point is simply that it isn't fascism, or anything like it.
Fundamentalism, maybe, but certainly not fascism.
You're correct that fascism is not synonymous with Islamist extremism, but overstating your case when you claim that it isn't "anything like it".
Christopher Hitchens, who is associated with the term but did not coin it, provided a list as long as your arm of similarities between the two.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You're correct that fascism is not synonymous with Islamist extremism, but overstating your case when you claim that it isn't "anything like it".
Christopher Hitchens, who is associated with the term but did not coin it, provided a list as long as your arm of similarities between the two.
The similarities (in the particular list he draws up) are not restricted to 'Islamic' fundamentalism - but apply to fundamentalism of any stripe (including Christian and Jewish fundamentalism).
His list is - however - highly arbitrary. With a few exceptions most fascists nominally value the same things as most of the rest of the people on this planet - family, culture, loyalty etc. Of course they define their practice of these things differently.
This would not have bothered Hitchens - he was a polemicist whose career was based on wrapping up prejudices in an english accent
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I'm probably giving you more airtime than you deserve, leo, but FFS, can you possibly demonstrate any greater obtuseness than by these statements? quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is often said that churches aren't allowed [in Saudi Arabia] - but is there any unbiased evidence?
That's not the way things work, leo. If you want to argue the manifestly counter-factual position, it's on you to mount evidence to support your claim. quote:
Church and mosque coexist peacefuly throughout the muslim world, ass the Holy Qur'an urges.
"Throughout the Muslim world." Really?! You put that in the present tense as though things were hunky-dory in, say, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and any number of additions 'stans. What countries am I leaving out?
The historical precedent for peaceful coexistence comes from Muhammad (pbuh)'s covenant with the monks at of Egypt's Saint Catherine's Monastery - more here.
Nowadays, only 4 out of the 52 countries listed below do NOT allow Christians to worship and/or churches to be built. The info.below is an abridged summary from a much longer article at
this website.
Afghanistan: (99% Muslim) churches were banned under the Taliban, but the country does now have one small Roman catholic chapel. Christianity is now legal, but there just aren't many Christians there.
Algeria: (99% Muslim) Christianity legal. Churches exist.
Azerbaijan: (93% Muslim) Christianity allowed. A new Roman catholic church was built in the capital as recently as 2002. It replaced the old church which was destroyed, not by Muslims, but by Communists when it was a part of the Soviet Union. There are also several other Christian denominations (including the Church of Armenia) which worship openly in Azerbaijan.
Bahrain: (81% Muslim) Churches allowed.
Bangladesh: (90% Muslim) Churches allowed.
Brunei: (67% Muslim) Christians are free to worship, the Roman catholic Church has three churches in the capital and two in other towns. Bear in mind Brunei is a tiny country. Brunei has its own Roman catholic bishop.
Burkino Faso: (50% Muslim) total religious freedom. several churches in the capital.
Chad: (54% Muslim) Approximately 30% of Chad's population are Christian. Christians worship openly.
Comoros: (98-99% Muslim) there are less than 400 Christians. Despite that it has 3 Churches (2 Roman catholic, one protestant) who carry out their business unheeded. Christianity was briefly banned following a coup in 1999, however, religious freedom was reinstated in a new constitution in 2001.
Djibouti: (94% Muslim) The population here is 94% Muslim, 6% Christian. Christians worship freely with no restraints.
Egypt: (90% Muslim) Churches allowed. The Pope of the Coptic Church resides in Egypt.
Eritrea: (60% Muslim) There is freedom to worship in Eritrea, but any religion has to be registered and recognised by the government, currently three Christian denominations (including Roman catholics) are recognised and worship openly with their own churches.
Guinea: (85% Muslim) 10% Christian. All Christian denominations are recognised by the government and are free to worship.
Indonesia: (86% Muslim) Christians are free to worship.
Iran: (98% Muslim) Christians are allowed to worship.
Iraq: (97% Muslim) Likewise.
Jordan: (95% Muslim) The Coptic church is particularly big in Jordan.
Kazakhstan: (57% Muslim) The Russian Orthodox Church is big here. Kazakh culture is built on tolerance and once it gained independence from the USSR hundreds of mosques, churches and synagogues were built relatively quickly.
Kosovo: (90% Muslim) "densely covered" with Serb orthodox churches and monasteries.
Kuwait: (85% Muslim) Churches allowed.
Kyrgyzstan: (75% Muslim) The Russian Orthodox Church is big here.
Lebanon (60% Muslim) several churches here. 39% of Lebanese are Christian and worship freely.
Libya: (97% Muslim). Religious freedom is a given right in Libya.
Malaysia (60% Muslim) Islam is the official religion in Malaysia, but religious freedom is enshrined in law. Buddhists make up the second largest group. 9% of Malaysians are Christian and are free to worship.
Madlives: (99.8% Muslim) No religions permitted by law other than Islam, although in practice, the tiny amount of Christians in the country are left alone and are physically free.
Mali: (90% Muslim) 5% of Malians are Christian and the constitution guarantees religious freedom.
Mauritania: (99.99% Muslim) Mauritania is ruled by a military junta. Churches were banned in 2006.
Morocco: (99% Muslim) Christianity allowed.
Niger (90% Muslim) a secular state, freedom to worship any religion is a right enshrined in law. Despite less than 1% of the population being Christian, missionary missions are active and perfectly legal and protected under Niger's law. Churches and Christian schools are open and operate without restriction.
Nigeria (50% Muslim) The Church of Nigeria has 17million members and thousands of churches.
Oman: (93% Muslim) 50 different Christian groups worship freely and openly in Muscat alone.
Pakistan: (97% Muslim) Churches, church schools etc all allowed.
Palestine: (95% Muslim) Christians have increasingly found themselves in the middle of the Muslim/Jewish struggle. However, churches are still permitted and many of Christianity's holiest sites (including the Church Of The Nativity in Bethlehem) are within Palestinian territory and operate.
Qatar: (77.5% Muslim) The Roman catholic Church built a new church in Doha (Our Lady of the Rosary) in 2008 with government permission.
Saudi Arabia: (100% Muslim) Christianity is banned in Saudi Arabia.
Senegal: (94% Muslim) Hardly any Senegalese are Christian, but Protestant and Roman catholic Churches both exist, although they cater mainly to foreigners, including Europeans. They are free to worship and preach openly. The Bahai'i Faith is the second biggest religion and also operates freely.
Sierra Leone: (60% Muslim) The Church operates freely in Sierra Leone and there are Churches and Church schools. The Church of England has a surprisingly high profile.
Somalia: (99.9% Muslim) no effective government so laws on religious freedom or otherwise are pretty much irrelevant. There is a Roman Catholic Cathedral in Mogadishu, but it was damaged in the civil war. To all intents and purposes, however, Christians are persecuted here.
Sudan: (90% Muslim) 5% of Sudanese are devout Roman Catholics. Churches exist. The Coptic churches also significant.
Syria: (90% Muslim) Churches allowed.
Tajikistan: (97% Muslim) There is religious freedom in Tajikistan, although religions have to register with the government, however, they only need 10 or more members to do this. Churches operate freely.
The Gambia: (90% Muslim) Christianity is the second largest religion in The Gambia. Not only do churches operate freely, but intermarriage between Muslims and Christians is common.
Tunisia: (98% Muslim) Tunisia allows both Christians and Jews to worship freely. There are Churches and synagogues in the capital and one of the oldest synagogues in the world operates on the island of Djerba. Many Jewish pilgrims visit it without restriction every year.
Turkey (99.8% Muslim). Turkey is a secular state by constitution. Religious freedom is enshrined in law.
Turkmenistan: (89% Muslim) 9% of the population are orthodox Christians and the Orthodox Church is recognised and protected in law. Churches exist and operate freely.
UAE: (76% Muslim) The UAE has a huge amount of foreign workers (mainly in Dubai and Abu-Dhabi). Christians can worship freely in the entire Emirate and there are churches and chapels. However, it is illegal to try and convert Muslims.
Uzbekistan: (88% Muslim) Despite this high figure, in a recent survey, only 35% of Uzbeks said they considered religion to be important in their lives. The Uzbek government is wary of Christianity and there have been high profile arrests of Christians. However the government is secular and it is an East-West political pressure as opposed to a Muslim one. There are, however, some very large churches in Uzbekistan.
Yemen (99% Muslim) Despite its tiny Christian population, Yemen does have Churches, including the Anglican Christ Church Aden, originally built for British Seamen. It is part of the Anglican diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf and operates without restriction.
[ 04. July 2013, 12:50: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Nowadays, only 4 out of the 52 countries listed below do NOT allow Christians to worship and/or churches to be built.
Leo there is however a difference between something being 'legal' and minorities being properly respected and protected (hence why Egyptian Copts are celebrating the downfall of the Muslim Brotherhood and their attempts to impose Islamic law on Egypt). All of those countries listed may allow Christians to exist but it does not mean that they are protected or treated equally...
As for the Church Bells-Adhan comparison... it is unfortunately a false comparison, a true comparison being if Christians hollered out the Creeds from Church towers every day.
The Adhan is a theologically loaded statement in a way that Church bells are not and does therefore serve a proselytising purpose...
All of this has made me wonder if in the interests of education, equality and to some extent provocation, C4 will present the Daily Prayers during Advent-Christmas and Lent-Easter say?
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
No Sergius - it's the BBC's job to do Christianity - at least according to the earlier quote from Terry Sanderson....
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Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Why should the BBC 'do' any religion?
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Nowadays, only 4 out of the 52 countries listed below do NOT allow Christians to worship and/or churches to be built.
Leo there is however a difference between something being 'legal' and minorities being properly respected and protected
Well, 'minority' muslims are facing the same prejudice and discrimination in so-called Chriatian countries.
quote:
General Synod member Alison Ruoff called for a ban on building more mosques in Britain and said new places of worship would lead to Sharia law and no-go Muslim areas.
Mrs Ruoff, a member of the Bishop of London’s Diocesan Council, said: “We are still a Christian country – we need to hold on to that. “If we don’t watch out, we will become an Islamic state.”
The former JP, of Waltham Cross, North East London, told Premier Christian Radio there were enough mosques for Britain’s Muslims
[URL=. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/989134/Islam-Christianity-Christians-call-to-ban-mosques.html#ixzz2Y5VQwD8d]source[ /URL]
quote:
Switzerland had a nationwide referendum to ban minarets on mosques. This month, Italy's interior minister vowed to close a controversial mosque in Milan.
In Austria, the southern province of Carinthia passed a law in February that effectively bans the construction of mosques by requiring them to fit within the overall look and harmony of villages and towns.
Far-right leaders from 15 European cities met in Antwerp, Belgium, in January and called for a ban on new mosques and a halt to "the Islamization" of European cities. The group said mosques act as catalysts for taking over neighborhoods and imposing Islamic ways of life on Europeans.
"We already have more than 6,000 mosques in Europe, which are not only a place to worship but also a symbol of radicalization, some financed by extreme groups in Saudi Arabia or Iran," Filip Dewinter, leader of a Flemish separatist party in Belgium, told Radio Netherlands Worldwide at the conference.
Dewinter criticized a mosque being built in Rotterdam, Netherlands: "Its minarets are six floors high. These kinds of symbols have to stop."
Although the group in Antwerp represented minority political parties from Belgium, Austria and Germany, its cause resonates elsewhere.
Construction of a mosque in Cologne, Germany, drew protests from residents last year and sparked a political debate in Berlin over concerns that it could overshadow the city's great Gothic cathedral.
In London, plans for a "mega-mosque" for 12,000 worshipers next to the site of the 2012 Olympics drew 250,000-plus opposing signatures.
source
quote:
"Permits should not be granted to build even one more mosque in the United States of America, let alone the monstrosity planned for Ground Zero," Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association wrote this week on the AFA website. "This is for one simple reason: each Islamic mosque is dedicated to the overthrow of the American government."
[URL=." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20013448-503544.html]source[/URL] quote:
Le Pen, deputy leader of France’s National Front, has called for a referendum in France not only on minarets, but also on immigration and a wide array of other issues linked to Muslims. Filip Dewinter, head of Belgium’s Vlaams Belang, said he wanted to change zoning laws there to ban “buildings that damage the cultural identity of the surrounding neighbourhood”. It remains to be seen how far they can get with these demands.
source
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
ISTM that the very extremely occasional Muslim shipmate that has posted has recieved a lot more flack than, say, our atheist members*. We had a very thoughtful Muslim poster in particular a few years back whom I thought got mostly unfairly hostile responses. It quite saddened me.
Me too - and I was called to Hell for supporting him.
Was proud to be in Hell for such a cause.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, 'minority' muslims are facing the same prejudice and discrimination in so-called Chriatian countries.
Leo I don't normally disagree with you, but I think this might be the issue that does!
To start with the Swiss case, that is democracy in action, and at a later date the Swiss people may, by referendum, change the decision and allow what is really a planning issue (rather than a religious freedoms issue since minarets aren't a fundamental part of the Muslim faith) to be changed later on.
I suppose that comment is suitable for most of the other example you give, I do however also wish to draw a distinction between what you indicate as discrimination/persecution, which effectively amounts to the spoken thoughts of a small group of people, and the treatment at the hands of Islamic law for apostates and non-believers (amongst other groups) who find themselves stoned to death, butchered (as in Syria) or hanging from a crane... there is a big difference between being ushered into the City of God and being told that for local planning reasons you can't build a new Mosque since it's not really needed at this time, or that if you do can you please keep it in style with the local historical look of a place...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, 'minority' muslims are facing the same prejudice and discrimination in so-called Chriatian countries.
In what sense is this the 'same' ? If you think it's the 'same' in terms of magnitude - then you honestly don't know enough about the status of Christians in the Arab/Muslim World to comment.
Even before one gets to how 'religious freedom' is interpreted on the ground one has to deal with the issue of apostasy laws.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, 'minority' muslims are facing the same prejudice and discrimination in so-called Chriatian countries.
In what sense is this the 'same' ? If you think it's the 'same' in terms of magnitude - then you honestly don't know enough about the status of Christians in the Arab/Muslim World to comment.
Even before one gets to how 'religious freedom' is interpreted on the ground one has to deal with the issue of apostasy laws.
Did you read the list I quoted, above, about freedom in all but 4 muslim countries?
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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JoannaP
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# 4493
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Posted
Leo,
Your list seems to state the legal position, according to the constitution or whatever of the countries concerned, without taking into account the reality as it is experienced by Christians living there.
I don't know enough to comment in detail but in Egypt it is practically impossible to get planning permission to build a new church.
To revert to Saudi Arabia, I remember reading in the Church Times a couple of years ago that roadblocks are set up on Good Friday to prevent expats travelling to their Embassies for services.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I fear that I am a bit astonished at one or two of the entries on the list Leo quotes: quote:
Senegal: (94% Muslim) Hardly any Senegalese are Christian, but Protestant and Roman catholic Churches both exist, although they cater mainly to foreigners, including Europeans. They are free to worship and preach openly. The Bahai'i Faith is the second biggest religion and also operates freely.
With a hierarchy of seven, and 570,000 RCs among the Christian 5% of the population, the notion of Xtianity as a foreign chaplaincy in Senegal is ... interesting. As is that of the Bahai population at 22,000 being the second biggest. And the Copts in Jordan??
Fans of anecdotology might be interested in a Muslim friend's Ramadan advice that those working in cubicles should not bring in too many attractively-fragrant snacks or lunches.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Leo: Could you compare for us the treatment (legal treatment will do) of Muslims who convert to Christianity in that long list of countries you mentioned with the treatment of Christians who convert to Islam in the West?
I'll just quote this from Wikipedia and snigger in your general direction, shall I?
quote:
In February, 2008, an Egyptian judge, Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo ruled that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status, although he may believe what he wants in his heart. Judge Muhammad Husseini said that according to sharia, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism). Husseini also told the administrative court that Hegazy "can believe whatever he wants in his heart, but on paper he can't convert."
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Did you read the list I quoted, above, about freedom in all but 4 muslim countries?
Nigeria is not and never has been a Muslim country. It has a Muslim population, mostly in the north. That's not at all the same thing. It doesn't have a state religion.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Leo,
Your list seems to state the legal position, according to the constitution or whatever of the countries concerned, without taking into account the reality as it is experienced by Christians living there.
I don't know enough to comment in detail but in Egypt it is practically impossible to get planning permission to build a new church.
To revert to Saudi Arabia, I remember reading in the Church Times a couple of years ago that roadblocks are set up on Good Friday to prevent expats travelling to their Embassies for services.
And so-called Xian countries are trying to strop planning permission for mosques, as i quoted above.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Did you read the list I quoted, above, about freedom in all but 4 muslim countries?
Nigeria is not and never has been a Muslim country. It has a Muslim population, mostly in the north. That's not at all the same thing. It doesn't have a state religion.
Indeed - and the Christians there are very oppressive too.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Leo: Could you compare for us the treatment (legal treatment will do) of Muslims who convert to Christianity in that long list of countries you mentioned with the treatment of Christians who convert to Islam in the West?
I'll just quote this from Wikipedia and snigger in your general direction, shall I?
quote:
In February, 2008, an Egyptian judge, Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo ruled that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status, although he may believe what he wants in his heart. Judge Muhammad Husseini said that according to sharia, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism). Husseini also told the administrative court that Hegazy "can believe whatever he wants in his heart, but on paper he can't convert."
I could look at this - though the Holy Qur'an insists that there should be no compulsion in religion.
And it's worth mentioning that over half the mosques in the UK have been vandalised in the past three months.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And so-called Xian countries are trying to strop planning permission for mosques, as i quoted above.
And as pointed out above, all those are covered either by democracy in play, or by planning laws.
If you have ever lived in a conservation area it is quite possible to understand, for example, the Austrian example in its proper context... Minarets are not an essential aspect of Islamic worship or belief, therefore they are not required and can appropriately be prevented on planning regulations to ensure that an area maintains its historical/protected look.
And as for your next posts - there is a lot of inconsistency in the Qu'ran, the interpretation depends on when it occurred in the schema of revelation, and to be truly honest you have to admit all the nice stuff occurs when Islam is in a pretty weak state and all the 'Jews are descendants of apes and pigs - wipe them out' stuff happens later on and therefore supersedes the stuff that came before it...
[ 04. July 2013, 20:34: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The similarities (in the particular list he draws up) are not restricted to 'Islamic' fundamentalism - but apply to fundamentalism of any stripe (including Christian and Jewish fundamentalism).
This is just a debating tactic.
There is no extant Christian or Jewish fundamentalism which is remotely comparable to Islamist groupings and regimes such as al Quaeda and the Taleban.
quote:
he was a polemicist whose career was based on wrapping up prejudices in an english accent
Very aphoristic and politically correct, but if Hitchens was "prejudiced" in opposing Islamist extremism, then so are the overwhelming majority of Muslims.
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Hitchens was a polemicist. It's how he made his living.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also worth mentioning that converts from Judaism were still sent to concentration camps no less that 60 years ago.
Well I guess that is one of the most historically illiterate and therefore badly applied Godwin's law examples I've come across in religious discussion...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
This is just a debating tactic.
There is no extant Christian or Jewish fundamentalism which is remotely comparable to Islamist groupings and regimes such as al Quaeda and the Taleban.
Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane and their supporters would fall into the first category.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
The attitude of some people in Israel towards the Palestinians is openly abhorrent.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
At least since the 1980s, Canadian Immigration staff at some of our missions have facilitated "humanitarian and compassionate" landings of Muslims who converted to Xty-- to my knowledge no precise numbers were ever assembled. From 1983-4 (a mere quarter century plus ago) I have a rough memory of a dozen that year, primarily from Yemen, Algeria, and Iran. In three of these individual cases, the host government cooperated as they were unable to provide protection to the convert.
Certainly, there's plenty of literature about forced conversion of Copts so, even when local governments are not hostile, they are frequently unable to stop grass-roots problems.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
The attitude of some people in Israel towards the Palestinians is openly abhorrent.
I guess if you were being daily harassed by homemade and Iranian supplied weapons fired at you from Wandsworth, or Wandsworthians blowing up public buses and declaring that you are descendants of apes and pigs and should be exterminated from the face of the earth then you might have some strong feelings about Wandsworth as the Israeli's do about the terrorists that run Gaza...
It is more credit to Israel that they have open borders to allow Palestinians (who are shunned on a political status level by all Muslim states in the Middle East) to work in Israel, to treat in Israeli hospitals those who are used as human shields by the terrorists in charge of Gaza, as well as allowing humanitarian aid through the borders on a consistent basis and being a bastion of progressive, open and democratic governance which treats all its citizens fairly which is sadly lacking from much of the rest of the Middle East.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
If you keep hitting a dog with a stick and generally maltreating it, then it will become savage and disturbed. And this is exactly what is happening with the Palestinians. Years of mistreatment are manifesting themselves as sundry atrocities, which the Israelis then argue are reasons for further mistreatment.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And it's worth mentioning that over half the mosques in the UK have been vandalised in the past three months.
Leo,
Can you provide a link for this? The article I read said that half the mosques in the UK had been attacked since 9/11.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
This is just a debating tactic.
There is no extant Christian or Jewish fundamentalism which is remotely comparable to Islamist groupings and regimes such as al Quaeda and the Taleban.
Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane and their supporters would fall into the first category.
The KKK were explicitly religious. The Stern Gang likewise.
The Provisional IRA were, while a political terror group, drew almost all their support and members from the Roman Catholic population of Ireland.
And if I'm going to be extraordinarily controversial, a great many ordinary Muslims view the US military as a Christian army, and drones strikes as a terror weapon.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And if I'm going to be extraordinarily controversial, a great many ordinary Muslims view the US military as a Christian army, and drones strikes as a terror weapon.
Is that really controversial when many or most, whatever, don't get the separation of mosque/church and state thing?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
This is just a debating tactic.
There is no extant Christian or Jewish fundamentalism which is remotely comparable to Islamist groupings and regimes such as al Quaeda and the Taleban.
Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane and their supporters would fall into the first category.
You have just proved my point.
Goldstein was condemned by all Jewish political and religious authorities and the Israeli army.
He was an unrepresentative nutcase, and a few other nutcases latched onto his atrocity, as will always happen.
You might just as well condemn the whole sixties radical movement because some of the Weatherman faction admired the Manson murders.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The KKK were explicitly religious. The Stern Gang likewise.
And so were the Crusaders and the Inquisitors.
There is no Jewish or Christian phenomenon around today qualitatively or quantitatively equivalent to Islamist extremism, despite the fact that it is a mere subset of Islam in general.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And if I'm going to be extraordinarily controversial, a great many ordinary Muslims view the US military as a Christian army, and drones strikes as a terror weapon.
Is that really controversial when many or most, whatever, don't get the separation of mosque/church and state thing?
I'm a right-pondian (with no wish to start a pond war). I'm aware, however, of many voices on the Christian Right that thought invading Iraq would open the country up to missionaries. Also, IIRC, considerable worries about an evangelical infiltration of military culture. (Here's one article, for example.)
I don't know. I'm guessing most people would object to their country's military being labelled 'a bunch of religiously-inspired terrorists'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The KKK were explicitly religious. The Stern Gang likewise.
And so were the Crusaders and the Inquisitors.
There is no Jewish or Christian phenomenon around today qualitatively or quantitatively equivalent to Islamist extremism, despite the fact that it is a mere subset of Islam in general.
So your argument rests on "dude, that was so last century"?
That's actually not that convincing. The seeds of extremism exist within both Christianity and Judaism, and not acknowledging that is both very dangerous and not a little stupid.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And so-called Xian countries are trying to strop planning permission for mosques, as i quoted above.
And as pointed out above, all those are covered either by democracy in play, or by planning laws.
So your argument boils down to "when we do it to them it's democracy and law in action, but when they do it to us it's persecution"?
Planning law is planning law. If it's OK to use it to stop the building of mosques in the West on the ground that the majority of the local population (i.e. democracy) doesn't want them, why is it not OK to use it to stop the building of churches in the Middle East on the grounds that the majority of the local population (i.e. democracy) doesn't want them?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also worth mentioning that converts from Judaism were still sent to concentration camps no less that 60 years ago.
Well I guess that is one of the most historically illiterate and therefore badly applied Godwin's law examples I've come across in religious discussion...
Why? The nazis regarded Jews who converted to Christianity as still being Jewish and worthy of extermination.
The Inquisition kept an eye on them too in bygone years.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Leo: Could you compare for us the treatment (legal treatment will do) of Muslims who convert to Christianity in that long list of countries you mentioned with the treatment of Christians who convert to Islam in the West?
[/QUOTE]
Execution for apostasy only applies in countries where religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence i.e. Saudi Arabia and Iran. – exceptions = life imprisonment for women. Drunkards and mentally ill persons are excluded from this punishment because they are considered to be not responsible for their statements.
Muslim countries that do NOT execute apostates:
Algeria: imprisonment for two to five years and a fine
Pakistan, Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Syria, Somalia, and Kenya. Turkey: unofficial death threats by those who take the law into their own hands
There is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.
Many scholars interpret the Hadith passage as referring only to instances of high treason – the same as UK law until very recently. (And, of course, Christians in the West had the death penalty for apostasy or heresy – the Spanish Inquisition and the protestat reformation burnings at the stake).
Many Islamic scholars e.g. Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have held that apostasy does not require the death penalty.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And it's worth mentioning that over half the mosques in the UK have been vandalised in the past three months.
Leo,
Can you provide a link for this? The article I read said that half the mosques in the UK had been attacked since 9/11.
No I can't - I heard something on radio 4 about attacks since Lee Rigby's murder but it turns out that figures have been exaggerated - though the people who claim this as an exaggeration seem to be the Daily Telegraph and the English Defence league - neither of whom I regard as reliable.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Execution for apostasy only applies in countries where religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence i.e. Saudi Arabia and Iran.
<snip>
But that's like saying "We have equality for blacks" while allowing, with state connivance, the Klan to lynch with impunity.
Equality is not equality until the weakest can bring (successful) prosecutions against the strongest. And it's quite clear that apostasy does carry the death penalty in many more Muslim-majority countries than the two you've listed above.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I heard something on radio 4 about attacks since Lee Rigby's murder but it turns out that figures have been exaggerated - though the people who claim this as an exaggeration seem to be the Daily Telegraph and the English Defence league - neither of whom I regard as reliable.
Whether the figure applies to the last few years or the time since 9/11 is irrelevant - the fact is that if it was the other way round (churches attacked in a muslim country) the fundigelicals would be up in arms about persecution of Christians.
And how many prosecutions have been brought over those attacks? Very few, I'd imagine - which of course in the vice-versa scenario would be taken as proof that the government is either in cahoots with the attackers, or at best turning a blind eye to them and refusing to protect the victims!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many scholars interpret the Hadith passage as referring only to instances of high treason – the same as UK law until very recently.
Which is an argument of sophistry. The follow up is that Islam and the State should be inseparable so that apostasising from Islam is rebelling against the State and disturbing the Islamic peace of the State, so apostasy is High Treason.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many Islamic scholars e.g. Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have held that apostasy does not require the death penalty.
There is quite a lot of blue water between "not executing" an apostate, and allowing him to freely and publicly practice his new religion, though.
You won't find an equivalent in the West more recent than the autos-da-fe.
Yes, mosques in the West have been attacked in recent years, and yes, there are people who would like to see Islam banned, all Muslims put on planes to Pakistan and so on. It is worth noting two things:
1. These people are a small minority, and are indeed condemned by the majority.
2. The "attacks" are mostly things like graffiti on the walls and bacon on the door handle. Not very nice, but not in the same league as arson, or actual assault or murder.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Yes, mosques in the West have been attacked in recent years, and yes, there are people who would like to see Islam banned, all Muslims put on planes to Pakistan and so on. It is worth noting two things:
1. These people are a small minority, and are indeed condemned by the majority.
What do you mean by a small minority? If it's 2% then I don't see it as a problem either but I reckon about 20% of people feel that this country would be better if they all went home. As for condemnation, most people are pretty apathetic and the last thing they want is to be thought of as liberal wishy-washy do-gooders.
quote:
2. The "attacks" are mostly things like graffiti on the walls and bacon on the door handle. Not very nice, but not in the same league as arson, or actual assault or murder.
Churches suffer damage like stained glass windows being broken and theft, plus graffiti. Arson is not unknown round here - they do like a good burn up, sometimes with tragic consequences. As for mosques, smearing dog excrement on door handles, as happened just two weeks ago in Newport, is quite specific desecration, and shows that the Islamophobes and racists aren't as stupid as they are sometimes portrayed.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Goldstein was condemned by all Jewish political and religious authorities and the Israeli army.
He was an unrepresentative nutcase, and a few other nutcases latched onto his atrocity, as will always happen.
That then makes him nicely analogous with UBL and Muslims. AQ is the loony fringe of the loony fringe of Islam.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What do you mean by a small minority? If it's 2% then I don't see it as a problem either but I reckon about 20% of people feel that this country would be better if they all went home. As for condemnation, most people are pretty apathetic and the last thing they want is to be thought of as liberal wishy-washy do-gooders.
Would you accept, though, that there's a difference between 'believing that they should all go home' and 'believing that it's acceptable to smear excrement over / smear pork over / burn down a mosque'?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What do you mean by a small minority? If it's 2% then I don't see it as a problem either but I reckon about 20% of people feel that this country would be better if they all went home. As for condemnation, most people are pretty apathetic and the last thing they want is to be thought of as liberal wishy-washy do-gooders.
Would you accept, though, that there's a difference between 'believing that they should all go home' and 'believing that it's acceptable to smear excrement over / smear pork over / burn down a mosque'?
Or a difference between "I think we'd be better off without people like X" and "we should make people like X leave".
I think, for example, that the UK would be a better place without Nick Griffin. I do not want to expel Mr. Griffin from the country.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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