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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It's Ramadan don't you know...
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What do you mean by a small minority? If it's 2% then I don't see it as a problem either but I reckon about 20% of people feel that this country would be better if they all went home. As for condemnation, most people are pretty apathetic and the last thing they want is to be thought of as liberal wishy-washy do-gooders.
Would you accept, though, that there's a difference between 'believing that they should all go home' and 'believing that it's acceptable to smear excrement over / smear pork over / burn down a mosque'?
There's a big difference between burning down a mosque and desecrating one but "sending them home" is one of those fundamentally daft things, as many muslims in Britain were born here - about 1.2 of 2.7 million (if I read my stats right).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I find 'why don't you go home' embarrassingly witless.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also worth mentioning that converts from Judaism were still sent to concentration camps no less that 60 years ago.
Well I guess that is one of the most historically illiterate and therefore badly applied Godwin's law examples I've come across in religious discussion...
Why? The nazis regarded Jews who converted to Christianity as still being Jewish and worthy of extermination.
The Inquisition kept an eye on them too in bygone years.
The point is that the Nazis were not Christian, per se. The grand religious plans of the NSDAP were Norse-Pagan rather than Christian and the extermination of the Jews was done on eugenics/scientific grounds rather than Christian/religious grounds...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So your argument boils down to "when we do it to them it's democracy and law in action, but when they do it to us it's persecution"?
Planning law is planning law. If it's OK to use it to stop the building of mosques in the West on the ground that the majority of the local population (i.e. democracy) doesn't want them, why is it not OK to use it to stop the building of churches in the Middle East on the grounds that the majority of the local population (i.e. democracy) doesn't want them?
Either you haven't understood what has happened in the Swiss and Austrian planning rules, or you are playing devil's advocate... however in the two examples it is a matter of planning regulations regarding aesthetics where as in Islamic countries it is a matter of life and death:
In the Islamic countries under discussion, active persecution/breaking up of groups of Christians from meeting/execution of Christians etc. occurs, however in the list which Leo presented there were two concrete examples in which something happened, the banning of the building of Minarets - Muslim were not banned from meeting, murdered for not believing in submitting to a god, or stopped from building mosques, they are merely required to not build minarets or to build mosques in such a way as is in keeping with local architecture - murder of innocents and not being allowed to build a minaret are not in the same league to any rational person...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Goldstein was condemned by all Jewish political and religious authorities and the Israeli army.
He was an unrepresentative nutcase, and a few other nutcases latched onto his atrocity, as will always happen.
That then makes him nicely analogous with UBL and Muslims. AQ is the loony fringe of the loony fringe of Islam.
Not quite.
AQ has thousands of followers, a budget of millions of dollars, and has been operating over a number of countries for decades.
It is certainly small and unrepresentative in the context of global Islam, but is not in the same category as a single unhinged individual committing one (however horrific) atrocity.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Sorry for a third post, but this news is the perfect way to herald in the start of ramadan.
(Although I guess Leo will not read the link since only the guardian or Morning Star are possibly the only reliable sources of information... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
As an aside, the grauniad is certainly not left-wing. The Mirror is more left-wing! I don't think there is a truly left-wing mainstream newspaper anymore.
(I support AQ being deported fwiw and do not regard it as Islamophobic, but I do think Islamophobia is a major problem in Europe - albeit mostly in continental Europe, the UK does much better.)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Are you more holy the more you hate them?
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Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also worth mentioning that converts from Judaism were still sent to concentration camps no less that 60 years ago.
Well I guess that is one of the most historically illiterate and therefore badly applied Godwin's law examples I've come across in religious discussion...
Why? The nazis regarded Jews who converted to Christianity as still being Jewish and worthy of extermination.
The Inquisition kept an eye on them too in bygone years.
The point is that the Nazis were not Christian, per se. The grand religious plans of the NSDAP were Norse-Pagan rather than Christian and the extermination of the Jews was done on eugenics/scientific grounds rather than Christian/religious grounds...
And they got away with it because many if their supporters were Lutherans who had a legacy of anti-semitism from Martin Luther himself who wrote that Jews should be treated thus.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As an aside, the grauniad is certainly not left-wing.
As with all these things, I suppose it depends on where one is standing.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
AQ has thousands of followers, a budget of millions of dollars, and has been operating over a number of countries for decades.
Can you provide any evidence to back up those assertions, specifically that they are currently true?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As an aside, the grauniad is certainly not left-wing.
As with all these things, I suppose it depends on where one is standing.
Given that they openly support the Liberal Democrats, and the Lib Dems are not a left-wing party....
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As an aside, the grauniad is certainly not left-wing.
As with all these things, I suppose it depends on where one is standing.
Given that they openly support the Liberal Democrats, and the Lib Dems are not a left-wing party....
As with all these things, I suppose it depends on where one is standing.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
While it's true that the Guardian supported the Lib Dems, as I remember it was qualified support of some kind and, were an election to be held tomorrow, I very much doubt the Guardian editorial would be calling for their readers to vote the same way again.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Could you please provide examples of the Guardian's left-wing-ness? Liberalism is not the same as being left-wing, many lefties are not liberal at all (and vice versa). I am both, but many are not.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Could you please provide examples of the Guardian's left-wing-ness? Liberalism is not the same as being left-wing, many lefties are not liberal at all (and vice versa). I am both, but many are not.
The LibDems have far more in common with the Social Democrats that broke away fom Labour in the early 1980's than with the pre-1980 Liberals, who were a very mixed bag indeed! Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, Bill Rodgers and David Owen (the gang of Four that founded the SDP) were about as left-wing as Ted Heath and Francis Pym, Conservatives of the same era.
None of which has anything to do with Ramadan or Islamophobia.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Apologies for the tangent, Gwai and Sionis Sais.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
AQ has thousands of followers, a budget of millions of dollars, and has been operating over a number of countries for decades.
Can you provide any evidence to back up those assertions, specifically that they are currently true?
They are hardly "assertions", just common knowledge which anyone, I would have thought, would absorb from keeping up with the news.
Try the Wikipedia article on AQ.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
AQ has thousands of followers, a budget of millions of dollars, and has been operating over a number of countries for decades.
Can you provide any evidence to back up those assertions, specifically that they are currently true?
They are hardly "assertions", just common knowledge which anyone, I would have thought, would absorb from keeping up with the news.
Try the Wikipedia article on AQ.
quote:
Some financing for al-Qaeda in the 1990s came from the personal wealth of Osama bin Laden. By 2001 Afghanistan had become politically complex and mired. With many financial sources for al-Qaeda, Bin Laden's financing role may have become comparatively minor. Sources in 2001 could also have included Jamaa Al-Islamiyya and Islamic Jihad, both associated with Afghan-based Egyptians. Other sources of income in 2001 included the heroin trade and donations from supporters in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries. A WikiLeaks released memo from the United States Secretary of State sent in 2009 asserted that the primary source of funding of Sunni terrorist groups worldwide was Saudi Arabia.
The section on Financing from the Wikipedia article does not seem to me to provide evidence that AQ currently has a budget of millions of dollars. If that is common knowledge, surely somebody would have provided some more up-to-date information in the article.
Try again.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
AQ has thousands of followers, a budget of millions of dollars, and has been operating over a number of countries for decades.
Can you provide any evidence to back up those assertions, specifically that they are currently true?
They are hardly "assertions", just common knowledge which anyone, I would have thought, would absorb from keeping up with the news.
Try the Wikipedia article on AQ.
quote:
Some financing for al-Qaeda in the 1990s came from the personal wealth of Osama bin Laden. By 2001 Afghanistan had become politically complex and mired. With many financial sources for al-Qaeda, Bin Laden's financing role may have become comparatively minor. Sources in 2001 could also have included Jamaa Al-Islamiyya and Islamic Jihad, both associated with Afghan-based Egyptians. Other sources of income in 2001 included the heroin trade and donations from supporters in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries. A WikiLeaks released memo from the United States Secretary of State sent in 2009 asserted that the primary source of funding of Sunni terrorist groups worldwide was Saudi Arabia.
The section on Financing from the Wikipedia article does not seem to me to provide evidence that AQ currently has a budget of millions of dollars. If that is common knowledge, surely somebody would have provided some more up-to-date information in the article.
Try again.
The Money/Business Committee funds the recruitment and training of operatives through the hawala banking system. U.S-led efforts to eradicate the sources of terrorist financing[48] were most successful in the year immediately following the September 11 attacks;[49] al-Qaeda continues to operate through unregulated banks, such as the 1,000 or so hawaladars in Pakistan, some of which can handle deals of up to $10 million.[50] It also provides air tickets and false passports, pays al-Qaeda members, and oversees profit-driven businesses.[51] In the 9/11 Commission Report, it was estimated that al-Qaeda required $30 million-per-year to conduct its operations.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
You two are comparing different sections of the same article to come up with your differing conclusions. Moreover, that article is from Wikipedia, which isn't much more reliable than any other part of the internet.
It's like prooftexting from different verses of an unreliable bible without applying any discernment.
[ 08. July 2013, 00:08: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The Money/Business Committee funds the recruitment and training of operatives through the hawala banking system. U.S-led efforts to eradicate the sources of terrorist financing[48] were most successful in the year immediately following the September 11 attacks;[49] al-Qaeda continues to operate through unregulated banks, such as the 1,000 or so hawaladars in Pakistan, some of which can handle deals of up to $10 million.[50] It also provides air tickets and false passports, pays al-Qaeda members, and oversees profit-driven businesses.[51] In the 9/11 Commission Report, it was estimated that al-Qaeda required $30 million-per-year to conduct its operations.
But it was teh 'merkans that funded the AQ in the first place.
Wot goes around comes around. Sucks huh?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But it was teh 'merkans that funded the AQ in the first place.
I suspect you are confusing AQ with the Taliban, but even if it were true, it would be utterly irrelevant to the issue under discussion.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also worth mentioning that converts from Judaism were still sent to concentration camps no less that 60 years ago.
Well I guess that is one of the most historically illiterate and therefore badly applied Godwin's law examples I've come across in religious discussion...
Why? The nazis regarded Jews who converted to Christianity as still being Jewish and worthy of extermination.
The Inquisition kept an eye on them too in bygone years.
The point is that the Nazis were not Christian, per se. The grand religious plans of the NSDAP were Norse-Pagan rather than Christian and the extermination of the Jews was done on eugenics/scientific grounds rather than Christian/religious grounds...
It's not that simple. The data would suggest that the Nazis were Christian per se, or at it's as likely that the argument can be made that they were/are. Have a look here: Hitler's Christianity to start you off. There's a rather large collection of information about it.
As a descendent and cousin to people who lived in Germany, fought as Germans and went to Catholic and Evangelistic (Lutheran) churches during the war, I can tell you that it is not quite so straightforward. They have indeed since chiselled off the swastikas and soldiers from most of the church art and stained glass. The Christian churches were part of the society, just as, alike the C of E. The ideas of people like Rosenberg were not mainstream, even if they appeal to us, in wanting to see Nazism as antithetical to Christianity.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Have a look here: Hitler's Christianity to start you off.
The issue of the connections between Christianity, Nazism and anti-Semitism in Germany 1933-45 is difficult, complex and plagued by partisan oversimplifications from both sides of the argument.
The question of Hitler's attitude toward Christianity is a little more straightforward.
I have never heard of Jim Walker, but the historian Ian Kershaw, author of the most recent authoritative biography of Hitler, is in no doubt about his opposition to Christianity, and dismisses his whole attitude toward religion as "purely opportunistic".
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Serious question:
Are "the other" being treated more badly in Muslim districts then by people in non-Muslim districts with equal education levels?
That, and I don't quite get why a need to prove that some Muslims are evil seems to be coupled in many people with a need to prove that no Christians are equally that evil.
Evil is evil.
[ 10. July 2013, 01:52: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not that simple. The data would suggest that the Nazis were Christian per se, or at it's as likely that the argument can be made that they were/are. Have a look here: Hitler's Christianity to start you off. There's a rather large collection of information about it.
OTOH, the Nazis did try to remove the crucifixes from schools in Oldenburg in 1936 and across Upper Bavaria in 1941, but backed down after protests. While the rank and file of the Nazis may have been Christians, their leaders were guided by a very different mindset.
And of course there was the "Glaubensbewegung Deutsche Christen" which sought to rid Christianity of any kind of Jewish roots (given that e.g. Jesus was a Jew you can see where that had to take you eventually) and make race purity a condition for church membership.
[ 10. July 2013, 04:15: Message edited by: Molopata The Rebel ]
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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