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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: TEC Seminaries
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Over at the Hell Thread on TEC I wrote:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
The Episcopal thing is really just a disappointment. Up north it's so liberal and academic as to be almost frivolous, and down here where I moved is a reactionary charismatic diocese that seems to stick around just to be ornery. I don't like politics in the pulpit.
What I surmise from my conversations from my TEC siblings, is that a lot depends on the seminary in which the clergy come from. In the Northeast, EDS has a reputation for pushing the envelope theologically and liturgically, if I can be so diplomatic (my more conservative TEC friends have other phrases for EDS). But you have General, Berkeley at Yale, and VTS, which from what my friends tell me, are very middle-the-road, though trending liberal on the social issues.
So, the Northeast IMHO, shouldn't be entirely loosey-goosey.
Is this a fair description of TEC Seminaries?
EDS--> Very liberal, considered out of the mainstream by many traditionalists
General--> Liberal anglo-catholic
Church Divinity of the Pacific--> Liberal Broad Church
VTS---> Liberal Broad church
Berkeley, Yale---> Liberal Broad Church
Trinity Episcopal--> Conservative evangelical
Nashatoah House--> Conservative anglo-catholic
Another distinction I have heard is whether a seminary focuses on academic theology or the training of clergy. EDS and to some degree, CDSP tends to focus on academic theology more than priestly training, while the AC schools focus principally on the training of priests.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Insofar as "liberal" and "conservative" have achieved meaninglessness in ecclesial discourse, sure. EDS is considered out of the mainstream by even the vaguely orthodox, though.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
I'm more interested in the latter issue I raised in my OP. Is there a necessary trade off between training clergy and training theologians in the Anglican/Episcopal church setting?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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roybart
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# 17357
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Posted
How about Sewanee?
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Ideally, seminaries wouldn't have to choose between a good theology program and a good pastoral ministry program. However, the Episcopal Church has far too many seminaries for a denomination our size. Astoundingly, there is another one being founded out in the west! This results in very small, poorly funded seminaries, that are forced to make hard choices about where to dedicate their resources.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
How about Sewanee?
Yes, but for Nashota, you missed the flyover zone seminaries- Sewanee, Bexley, and Southwest. (I think that Sewanee and Southwest probably don't fit into this discussion perfectly, as they advertize themselves as seminaries for the "whole church." When you are the only seminary in the area, you probably end up with a greater diversity of diocese served, and can't afford to be quite as niche-y.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It should be known that our only financially solvent seminary is VTS.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It should be known that our only financially solvent seminary is VTS.
Don't most seminaries have rich endowments? VTS, I know has, but wouldn't EDS and Berkeley with their relationships with Harvard and Yale?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It should be known that our only financially solvent seminary is VTS.
Don't most seminaries have rich endowments? VTS, I know has, but wouldn't EDS and Berkeley with their relationships with Harvard and Yale?
Those endowments have been withering for decades, and have more of less run out for Seabury-Western and EDS.
EDS students can take classes at Harvard Divinity school, but it doesn't have a formal relationship with Harvard that I know of. Berkeley, I think, is as bad off as Yale Divinity School.
[ 13. July 2013, 19:01: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
This results in very small, poorly funded seminaries, that are forced to make hard choices about where to dedicate their resources.
I would be perfectly in favor of mergers with ELCA seminaries. Amongst mainline denoms, the language coursework, Biblical coursework, pastoral care coursework, music, homiletics, and whatever newfangled edgy chairs have been concocted in recent years could easily be shared positions, not to mention the support staff and facilities.
Sure, our locations differ a bit, but it seems most seminarians must move to their places of study, anyway. Liquidate the other properties or sell them to the offshoot denoms.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Hasn't one already merged with a Lutheran seminary? Berkeley, of course, is already part of a non-denominational seminary.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
... EDS students can take classes at Harvard Divinity school, but it doesn't have a formal relationship with Harvard that I know of.
In fact, the Episcopal Divinity School, through it's predecessor, the Episcopal Theological School, has has been, since 1916, an "affiliate institution" of Harvard University. That affiliation allows EDS students to take classes anywhere appropriate at Harvard, including, of course, at Harvard Divinity.
*
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
Zach82, are you in seminary? If so, which one?
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
One in Boston. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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QuietMBR
Shipmate
# 8845
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
How about Sewanee?
My rector is a Sewanee grad. She's a conservative leaning moderate. Broad church with a respect for proper liturgy and sound theology.
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"My Jesus would never be accepted in my church...the blood and dirt on His feet might stain the carpets." Todd Agnew
Posts: 298 | From: Middle Atlantic, USA | Registered: Dec 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Don't most seminaries have rich endowments? VTS, I know has, but wouldn't EDS and Berkeley with their relationships with Harvard and Yale?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The Episcopal Divinity School is spiraling the drain.
Weston Jesuit School of Theology, who used to be EDS's main tenant, shared the library with EDS. EDS purchased, in the main, books for the OT, while Weston acquired books for the NT. Weston saw the writing on the wall and made an unholy merger with Boston College, taking the better half of the EDS/Weston Library, Weston's Pontifical Faculty (Beat Notre Dame!), and hied off to BC's recently purchased archdiocesan estate in the Wilds of Chestnut Hill.
This left the Lesbian Widow without the financial support of its former tenant. That Dog, Lesley University, started sniffing around and the Widow found that it had forced itself into selling off its real estate into a condominium arrangement with the expanding and robust Lesley. If I remember rightly, EDS keeps the chapel and two or three other buildings.
All of which is to say, Rich Endowment? They can't even keep the mold and fungus off the library holdings in their basement stacks.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
EDS isn't the only one. Just a few years ago, Seabury-Western stopped admitting full-time M.Div students.
Which is why I nearly dropped my Necco wafers this morning when I read that they are founding another Episcopal seminary in Topeka, Kansas. What the eff are they thinking?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hasn't one already merged with a Lutheran seminary?
Not exactly merged, but the sharing-faculty arrangement that Olaf described above. Bexley Hall, with Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Columbus. From what I've seen as a student on the Lutheran side, it's worked well and been mutually beneficial for both schools.
Posts: 25 | From: The Cornfields | Registered: Aug 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Here is a link.
I read about this earlier in the week through my RSS feed (the article now being consigned to 'Read' status oblivion). I seem to recall reading that they have no intention of offering an M.Div. I also seem to recall the words 'nonstipendiary ministry.' If it brings more ordained deacons to the Great Plains, then perhaps it's a good thing. My guess is that they intend this for candidates who plan to hold other employment, and that those who are seeking more will continue to be referred to existing seminaries.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Ah, it must have been from the cafe.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Well, that doesn't seem so outlandish.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Point of clarification: Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary remains an seminary of the ELCA and is independent from the TEC seminary. However, they both are members of the Graduate Theological Union which include several other seminaries and graduate schools in the bay area.
There has been some talk about merging Pacific Lutheran Seminary with the California Lutheran University of Los Angeles at least for administrative purposes, but they will continue to have separate campuses.
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lilyswinburne
Shipmate
# 12934
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Posted
Is EDS the "Lesbian Widow"? Can you explain what that means?
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Ideally, seminaries wouldn't have to choose between a good theology program and a good pastoral ministry program. However, the Episcopal Church has far too many seminaries for a denomination our size. Astoundingly, there is another one being founded out in the west! This results in very small, poorly funded seminaries, that are forced to make hard choices about where to dedicate their resources.
The opposite situation is just as problematical though. I really envy denoms who have multiple theological colleges. In my Anglican diocese there is 1 theological college and you can count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of rectors who didn't train there. A lot of ministers from other denoms also go there.
Yes they are well resourced but it's a recipe for group think and narrowing of outlook. I'd fight to protect as much diversity as possible in theological training.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Do Nashotah and T(E)SM even still have a relationship with The Episcopal Church. Old-guard alumni testify that it used to be possible to obtain a well-rounded, humane priestly formation at the latter. (Even Fr Jake is a son of the House!)
Bexley was an option I looked into when it became clear I would need to stay local for seminary. Then two things happened. The Rochester campus closed, leaving only the Columbus joint facility, and the Toronto-Rochester ferry line was abandoned. So much for that.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Do Nashotah and T(E)SM even still have a relationship with The Episcopal Church. Old-guard alumni testify that it used to be possible to obtain a well-rounded, humane priestly formation at the latter. (Even Fr Jake is a son of the House!)
They are still affiliated with TEC, but I don't know which bishops send seminarians there. The two younger guys I know who went to Nashota are with the old Fort Worth diocese. Trinity apparently dropped the "Episcopal" from its name about 6 years ago, as a nod to the number of non-TEC affiliated Anglican diocese sending students there, but the connection is still, in theory, there.
Around here, you tend to meet lots of older clergy members, including a number of out of the closet clergy members, who went to Nashota back in the day. It isn't called the Mission for nothing- they used to take a lead in sending priests out into the wilderness on this side of the Mississippi.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Do Nashotah and T(E)SM even still have a relationship with The Episcopal Church. Old-guard alumni testify that it used to be possible to obtain a well-rounded, humane priestly formation at the latter. (Even Fr Jake is a son of the House!)
They are still affiliated with TEC, but I don't know which bishops send seminarians there. The two younger guys I know who went to Nashota are with the old Fort Worth diocese. Trinity apparently dropped the "Episcopal" from its name about 6 years ago, as a nod to the number of non-TEC affiliated Anglican diocese sending students there, but the connection is still, in theory, there.
Bishop William Love of Albany sends postulants to Nashota House.
The web page for Trinity School for Ministry (the cryptic T(E)SM cited above, as if letters were being rationed) claims this: an evangelical seminary in the Anglican tradition.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The web page for Trinity School for Ministry (the cryptic T(E)SM cited above, as if letters were being rationed) claims this: an evangelical seminary in the Anglican tradition.
They are still on The List, although it is clear that they allow in ACNA students.
I know more than a handful of TEC Chicago Diocese people who would not want to lose Nashotah. Of course, Bishop Lee (current of Chicago) and Bishop Ackerman (formerly of TEC Quincy, now ACNA Quincy Bishop Visitor) are both Nashotah grads.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
I guess this is tangential, but what are people's feelings on still having seminaries for Priestly training?
Should Churches be moving away from the full-time seminary route to a more on the job route such as teachers/youth workers/NSM/etc. have?
(I was going to put it in the stupid terminology of the Jerusalem and Berlin models, but since I can never remember which one is which I thought better of it, a bonus point for enlightenment!)
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Since this thread is entitled, TEC Seminaries, I'll answer this question as sharply as I commented on the deplorable state of education up-thread.
It matters that Anglican clergy are educated. It matters whether they are able to give an account of their faith. It matters whether they are able to navigate the homiletical shoals of Trinity Sunday. It matters that they know what Chalcedon was about. It matters to their ministry that they have completed a unit or two of Clinical Pastoral Education. It matters that they have some understand of the characteristics of grief. It matters for them to be able discuss Henry VIII and his wives. It matters for them to be able to understand the range of Anglican beliefs about the eucharist. It matters for them to have read, studied, and understood their prayer book. It matters that postulants have been put through their paces and can break open the word through disciplined exegesis. And, I could go on and on.
In brief: It matters for the laity to be led by an educated clergy.
The English Church and its descendent have always aspired to an educated clergy. There is not a single convincing reason for educated clergy not to be the norm for the Episcopal Church.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Sometimes I think we shouldn't license our priests to preach until they can give a 45 minute, coherent sermon on what the point of this church business is. Why don't we just man a soup kitchen for an hour each Sunday morning and forgo the song and dance?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Staff. Staff a soup kitchen. At least that works for me over the needless man.
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