homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » CofE is a powerful force for social cohesion?

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: CofE is a powerful force for social cohesion?
Solly
Shipmate
# 11919

 - Posted      Profile for Solly     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
ABC Justin Welby believes [the Church of England] 'is one of the most powerful forces of social cohesion'. I can't see it myself: individual Anglicans, amongst other Christians, do good work in their communities, but I don't see much collective activity or giving. I would say the free churches - Baptists, Salvationists probably have the edge on the CofE when it comes to sacrificial collective community work and giving.
ABC cites food banks as an example of Anglican good works, although the free churches again are likely to be more heavily involved. Are food banks in fact a fashionable bandwagon for the bishops? How good it would be to hear them talking about the plight of elderly people in care homes, for example and asking churches to be advocates speaking out for people who have no voice.

Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152

 - Posted      Profile for Garasu   Email Garasu   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can appreciate the CoE's theoretical role in social cohesion. I'll join you in doubting that it's actual role is particularly important. (Let's face it, the true gods are Football and Weather...).

Perhaps the one thing it can claim, still, is that when it comes to recognising transitional events (hatchings, matchings and dispatchings), it still has priority...

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398

 - Posted      Profile for The Midge   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is kind of like saying "The COOP is a powerful force in retailing."

They are just about everywhere, it is nice to know you have a local COOP but how many people go there in preference to the out of town superstore?

--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The CoE can't even manage social cohesion within itself!

I would say that the CoE position on Dead Horses is actively harming its impact on social cohesion, as well as the bishops in the House of Lords failing to use their power to criticise the government's work in harming social cohesion.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Welby seems to be seriously deluded and grandiose about his/our role.

As for food banks - they allow the government to do more evil cuts without their conscience pricking the - someone else will pick up the tab.

Welby seriously disillusions me for his naivete.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398

 - Posted      Profile for The Midge   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know Leo. I think this government would cut away regardless.

There is an opportunity to show love with food banks but also a calling to challenge the society that allows the situation. I don't think the government is solely to blame. We need to look at the greed of companies and individuals too.

--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

 - Posted      Profile for Trisagion   Email Trisagion   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There's some interesting data in the IEA's recent report that suggests the ABC isn't entirely off target.

quote:
The Church already promotes social action: 79 per cent of Anglican congregations formally volunteer, compared with only 49 per cent of the general public. 90 per cent of church congregations informally volunteer, compared to 54 per cent of the general public. The Church is already a hyper-local institution: 90 per cent of Anglican volunteers are participating in social action within 2 miles of their home – and 88 per cent travel under 2 miles to attend church. Belief drives volunteering, but volunteers don’t proselytise: 61 per cent of Anglican volunteers strongly agreed they were motivated by their faith – but 88 per cent are strongly comfortable with helping those with different beliefs or values.


--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Welby seems to be seriously deluded and grandiose about his/our role.

I agree. I think it is a pity, because from the information I heard about him beforehand, I did wonder whether he might be a bit more up to date in his thinking.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
geroff
Shipmate
# 3882

 - Posted      Profile for geroff   Email geroff   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The C of E is, geographically, everywhere. Its just not very good at showing it.
We in the church should be working out ways that we can become that powerful force rather than saying 'we have not been very good at it so far so why should we try now.'

--------------------
"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990

Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems an odd thing for the ABC to say when one considers that that CofE's very existence owes itself to the most ignominious and violent divisions Christianity has ever suffered -- namely the Reformation.

The social cohesion I see going on in this day and age seems to be completely independant from any religious doctrine . It simply occurs from people's natural willingness to co-exist and be reasonably congenial one to another on a daily basis .

As a somewhat faltering church-goer myself, I do sympathise with the ABC . Yes, he's got to try and come up with something , ISTM though that his job is little more than a straw clutching exercise in the face decline.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Trisagion (ay up). Lies, damn lies etc. 79% of less than 2% is about 1%. 49% of 95% is about half. It's all nonsense. Like the claim I just saw that 15% the UK population 'go to church' and that 90% of Poles do. No they don't. Not in any meaningful way. Half of the secular British volunteer? What for? Going to get a takeaway?

There are 6500 in my village. 1.5% of them go to the main Anglican church across the road. There was a wedding yesterday. Hundreds turn up for Remembrance Sunday. So yeah, it's marginally socially cohesive. And the margins are important.

Of the 750 strong city centre church I go to less and less to 'worship', 2% represent the pool of people who volunteer for the Friday night Triangle soup kitchen. I'm told that there are many, many other ministries doing many greater works ... I don't know what they are.

I'm going tonight (voluntarily!) because 5 guys from Triangle might show up. One for a hand out. Another for his birthday present. So that's 2 for sure!

This isn't power. It's pathetic. Islam is a far more powerful force for social cohesion in Britain. Internally and externally during Ramadan.

Oh Jerusalem!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Speaking as an interested outsider here(non-Anglican, non-British), if you think that Welby IS wrong, then shouldn't that prompt some pretty serious soul-searching about continued Establishment?

Because how on earth can you justify having a state church if it can't even provide social cohesion? That would seem to me to be one of the principal rationales for such an institution.

Mind you, I suppose my snark would only apply to people who a) think that Welby is wrong, but b) still support continued Establishment. Not sure how many of those there are on the Ship, or among British Anglicans generally.

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
argona
Shipmate
# 14037

 - Posted      Profile for argona   Email argona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
There's some interesting data in the IEA's recent report that suggests the ABC isn't entirely off target.

quote:
The Church already promotes social action: 79 per cent of Anglican congregations formally volunteer, compared with only 49 per cent of the general public. 90 per cent of church congregations informally volunteer, compared to 54 per cent of the general public. The Church is already a hyper-local institution: 90 per cent of Anglican volunteers are participating in social action within 2 miles of their home – and 88 per cent travel under 2 miles to attend church. Belief drives volunteering, but volunteers don’t proselytise: 61 per cent of Anglican volunteers strongly agreed they were motivated by their faith – but 88 per cent are strongly comfortable with helping those with different beliefs or values.

Indeed. I'm in the Citizens UK group at my South London parish, working around issues of affordable housing, street safety, immigrant healthcare. Not a lot of noise made, but it's happening.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The thing is, Solly, by claiming that the CofE is a force for social cohesion, Welby isn't saying that the Salvation Army, Baptists, other Free Churches or the RCs aren't also forces for social cohesion.

Neither is he implying that other, non-Christian religious groups aren't also forces for social cohesion.

My own 'take' on this is that he has to find SOMETHING to say so this is a something he can find to say ...

The issue then, is whether it's true or not.

Not very, I would suggest.

On the Establishment thing, I don't know how representative the Ship's UK Anglicans are but I don't see many of them banging the drum for continued Establishment.

I suspect that Establishment continues for the most part because no-one can be arsed doing that much about it. It's not really that much of an issue to all practical intents and purposes. Sure, the Anglican Church in Wales was Dis-Established back in the 1920s but I doubt if that many Welsh people have even noticed ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The trouble here is that the Anglican Church has always been more about ‘social cohesion’ than about the Christian gospel. In early years this was achieved by the Church being totalitarian and persecuting dissenters and non-conformists. Not only Roman Catholics were persecuted, as might be expected after the acrimonious break with Rome; in Henry VIII’s time a group of Dutch Anabaptists were executed in London, and Elizabeth and the Stuarts persecuted the various Puritan dissenters; Charles II in 1662 passed an Act of Uniformity which led among other things to the imprisonment of Baptist John Bunyan. The logic was the same as the Roman Emperor in the late 300s AD who finally made Christianity compulsory because he wasn’t willing to have his subjects disagreeing with him about religion

Over the years that original totalitarianism has been steadily eroded, most notably with the Act of Toleration following the 1688 ‘Glorious Revolution’ which set William and Mary on the throne; though even now Anglicanism does have some privileges above other religions, including other forms of Christianity. In the new plural democratic climate the Church needs to find new justifications for that privileged established position; one of the arguments used is this idea of ‘socialal cohesion’. Another argument, ironic in view of the original totalitarianism, has been for Anglicans to pose as defenders of everybody else’s religious liberty.

I’m more than happy to give credit to the Anglicans for their efforts for society – but as other contributors to this strand have pointed out, there isn’t anything very specially Anglican about it. A disestablished Episcopalian Free Church could perfectly well continue to do such work.

The important issue is whether ‘social cohesion’ of earthly states like England is a proper priority for the Church in the first place? Cohesion of the Church itself as “God’s holy nation”, yes; though that can be severely compromised by being attached to earthly nations. That the state be benefited by the efforts of the Christians who live in it, yes. But if anything the church’s job as defined by the New Testament is to call people out of their nation of birth to be ‘born again’ as Christians, a calling which can only be confused by the attempt to have a national Christian faith. A Church which is selling itself as an agent of ‘social cohesion’ has lost the plot, bigtime!

Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, Stephen Langton ... your interpretation and appreciation of these things is 'good in parts' but isn't the full story ... the full story, as ever, is a lot more complex and nuanced than that. It's more complex and nuanced in terms of the way the CofE has developed over the years and also more complex and nuanced in terms of what happened in the Roman Empire under Constantine. You give a broadly accurate but very 2-Dimensional description.

Now, I'd come to a similar conclusion as yourself, that we don't want a form of Caesaro-Papism nor the kind of Erastianism that was very apparent in the Anglicanism of the 18th century. This tendency did continue until well into the 19th when it was gradually eroded as Parliament first passed the Catholic Emancipation Act and as reforms and greater equity was gradually introduced for other forms of Protestant Christianity.

That said, there were 'non-conformist' pressures against bastions of Anglican privilege right up until the years before WW1 - and some notable examples of civil disobedience re tithes and so on.

So, yes, whilst the CofE used to be the 'Tory Party at Prayer' and you had to be Anglican to study at Oxford and so on, that isn't the whole story. It's often overlooked that in some parts of Wales, for instance, there was sometimes a cold-shouldering and sometimes even violence directed towards Anglicans by members of the more virulent non-conformist groups.

So, whilst I'd agree that the CofE has had a case to answer in terms of its support for the squirearchy and the status quo and so on, it's not always been as clear cut as that.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462

 - Posted      Profile for Sergius-Melli   Email Sergius-Melli   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
[Snip] Charles II in 1662 passed an Act of Uniformity which led among other things to the imprisonment of Baptist John Bunyan. The logic was the same as the Roman Emperor in the late 300s AD who finally made Christianity compulsory because he wasn’t willing to have his subjects disagreeing with him about religion [Snip]

Sorry but this is a big steaming pile of smelly stuff.

The 'tyranny' which you lay at the feet of Charles II should actually lye at the feet of those voted into parliament who, time after time kept Charles II at near bankruptcy unless he acceded to their demands for religious intolerance, if anything the Monarchs from Elizabeth I were the more 'ecumenical' with their parliaments being the more totalitarian.

Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012  |  IP: Logged
Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

 - Posted      Profile for Oscar the Grouch     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Archbishop Welby's comments simply confirm what I have already suspected about him - namely that he comes from the fairly typical evangelical (HTB) circles where it is taken for granted that you can say general guff and expect people to accept it without any serious questioning. He has already shown an alarming tendency to shoot off bland platitudes with very little beef behind them. This is just another.

But I can see now why TPTB decided he was such a Good Idea for becoming Archbishop of Canterbury. Not as challenging intellectually (or as impenetrable) as Rowan. Able to spout off a dozen nice sounding quotes before breakfast without actually MEANING anything.

--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks, Gamaliel. Actually I've been studying this kind of stuff since I was at Uni in the late 60s and I know I'm giving a pretty sketchy version.

Also thanks to Sergius-Melli. Again I know I was oversimplifying. It should be pointed out that there are two kinds of non-conformists - those who really believe Church and State should be separate (eg Anabaptists) and those who would like to be the state church themselves (eg, Presbyterians who are the state church in Scotland).

I would repeat - is 'social cohesion' a proper church priority? Those who favour various kinds of 'Christian state' often act as if the Church existed for social cohesion, ie for the state rather than for God's purposes. It seems to me the New Testament says otherwise!!

Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I would repeat - is 'social cohesion' a proper church priority? Those who favour various kinds of 'Christian state' often act as if the Church existed for social cohesion, ie for the state rather than for God's purposes. It seems to me the New Testament says otherwise!!

I think churches and Christians should work to increase social cohesion, in the sense of bringing about reconciliation and being peacemakers. Just by way of example, it seems to me a thoroughly godly thing for Christians to get involved in mentoring young offenders, thus helping them play a more active part in society.

But social cohesion in the sense of social conformity and even nationalism; like Steve Langton, I think that's absolutely not what churches and Christians should be about.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps it's a case of both/and rather than either/or, Steven Langton?

I know what you're saying about the Anabaptist position and I have a lot of sympathy with that, it's just that Anabaptists haven't been any more tolerant or enlightened than anyone else whenever they've been in a position of power - not necessarily at a state level, of course, but at a local one. Sure, the whole Munster thing was an aberration with some pretty extreme dudes ... but in terms of an Anabaptist hegemony - if you look at Amish and Mennonite communities in the US and elsewhere you'll find things to admire, certainly, but also a kind of strait-jacketing and constriction.

I've a lot of time for Bunyan but I'm not sure I'd have been so keen if the Fifth Monarchists had been in charge. What can look quaint and cuddly to us 300 years on would have looked rather Talibanical at the time.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Leslie Newbiggin, the late, great URC missiologist, used to say that any attempt to bring heaven down from above inevitably brings hell up from below.

He was saying that any attempt at theocracy was doomed to failure.

You can understand the impetus towards it, though. Arguably Christendom in its post-Constantinian form kept the faith alive during the Dark Ages and so on. Of course, the Byzantine Empire and its 'successors' in the form of Holy Russia and what-have-you were rather too Caesaro-papist and Erastian - but you did get a 'Christianisation' of society which is still apparent - even if in a somewhat superstitious form at times - in rural Greece and Romania etc.

My own view is that the CofE, like anything else, has been a 'mixed blessing'. In many ways it has served this country well and helped maintain a level of 'Christianised' culture. Sure, it's not the only player and the various non-conformist groups have also played their part - and many of them have a detectable 'Anglican' strain in their spiritual DNA - certainly when compared to evangelical and fundamentalist movements in the USA.

Of course Anglicanism has its problems. No-one is saying otherwise. But I don't think Welby has 'lost the plot' simply by stating that he believes his church has a role to play in social cohesion.

I agree that he isn't a deep thinker like Rowan Williams but it's easy to be cynical. What he's trying to say is that the Christian faith, embodied in its Anglican form - but by no means excluding other forms - can be a force for social cohesion.

Whether he's right or wrong about that is the moot point, but the suggestion that faith, any faith, can have a cohesive effect on society isn't contentious, surely?

The downside with the Anabaptist position is that it can become highly individualist and pietistic ... with little regard for societal issues at all.

Heck, I encountered the Plymouth Brethren early on in my Christian pilgrimage and they had absolutely no interest in 'society' and wider issues at all ... none whatsoever. All they appeared to be concerned about was the 6.30pm Gospel Meeting and exotic interpretations of Revelation and overly literal views about Israel and the End-Times.

Ok, I'm caricaturing, there have been very public-spirited Brethren who have done a lot of good for their communities.

But whilst close links between Church and State may represent one extreme then surely a kind of holy huddle, 'we're-all-separated-from-the-world-despite-our-colour-tellies-expensive-holidays-and-nice-houses-and-we're-waiting-for-the-R apture' approach is the equal and opposite danger.

In my experience those who trumpet the loudest about being 'in the world but not of it' are neither - they're living in a fantasy pietistic cloud-cuckoo land.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I agree that he isn't a deep thinker like Rowan Williams but it's easy to be cynical.

Indeed, Gamaliel. Rowan was criticised just because he was a deep thinker, so it's unfair to criticise Justin for not being. He is in the position of having to be 'rent-a-quote' for every situation so it's not surprising that platitudes sometimes result. I think his address to General Synod, and in particular his remarks about homophobia, suggest that he has already travelled a fair distance from fundamentalism (if indeed he ever was really that) and is prepared to keep travelling with his eyes open.

On the subject of the OP, there is a particularly unpleasant form of Anglican superiority-consciousness which exaggerates the 'benefits' of establishment and marginalises other Christians. I want no part of that. However, in many places (villages and some inner-city areas) to all intents and purposes the C of E is the Church,

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, I would agree with all of that, Angloid.

I've been involved with 'new churches' and with the Baptists in the past - as well as with the Methodists and Brethren to a lesser extent - and my own experience has been that none of the Anglicans I've ever encountered have been particularly 'sniffy' towards anyone else. Perhaps the closest to that I've come across was an instance of a bloke who made a big deal about Anglicanism being the state-church etc etc and yet who never darkened the door of his local parish church from one year to the next ...

[Biased]

That said, I certainly know Baptist and other non-conformist ministers who have encountered genuine sniffiness towards them on the part of the Anglican establishment. But it's never been anything I've encountered myself - although I'm certainly not pretending that it doesn't exist.

On the CofE as the default option in some rural and indeed some inner-city areas too, then yes, absolutely. Although here on the fringes of rural Cheshire some rural parishes have Sunday attendances boosted by those fleeing drum'n-bass or modernising tendencies in the towns.

That applies within easy striking distance of the main towns, but the further out you go into the countryside then you're talking about no option other than the CofE and parishes with regular congregations numbering in the 20s or less with an average age of 60+.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I would agree with all of that, Angloid.


That applies within easy striking distance of the main towns, but the further out you go into the countryside then you're talking about no option other than the CofE and parishes with regular congregations numbering in the 20s or less with an average age of 60+.

You just described our local shack.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
There's some interesting data in the IEA's recent report that suggests the ABC isn't entirely off target.

quote:
The Church already promotes social action: 79 per cent of Anglican congregations formally volunteer, compared with only 49 per cent of the general public. 90 per cent of church congregations informally volunteer, compared to 54 per cent of the general public. The Church is already a hyper-local institution: 90 per cent of Anglican volunteers are participating in social action within 2 miles of their home – and 88 per cent travel under 2 miles to attend church. Belief drives volunteering, but volunteers don’t proselytise: 61 per cent of Anglican volunteers strongly agreed they were motivated by their faith – but 88 per cent are strongly comfortable with helping those with different beliefs or values.

OK. Putting this in context.

1: You mean ResPublica, not the IEA. A far less prestigeous body.

2: The sampling method was skewed. The survey was given out on "The fieldwork day" - i.e. people who were in church on a specific Sunday. This massively over-represents the most committed and under-represents those who turn up only occasionally.

3: The single most common form of formal voluntary work in the report was "Promoting Church (e.g. coffee mornings)" (66%). In second place were "Christian Charities" (60%), and in third was "Choral/musical, cultural activities, hobbies" (31%). You'll notice two things about these top three examples. The first is the stark drop off after the first two. (The fifth is 24%). The second is that all of these are centered around the Church itself and helping the church (singing in the Church Choir counts as formal voluntary work in category 3). Most formal voluntary work from those surveyed is directly to support the church.

4: Only 41% of formal voluntary work is done other than directly through the church. 41% of 79% is 32%. Which is far lower than the 49% of the general population that does formal voluntary work outside the framework of the Church. Implying that far from being a force for social cohesion, the CofE is another subgroup - and people deeply involved in the CofE are actively less likely to be involved in things outside the CofE than people who aren't.

Despite the spin in the executive summary, that report to me says one thing. People who go to church a lot do a lot of things for the Church they go to. I also note that there was no subgroup analysis in the report to try to weed this effect out. I am unclear whether it was not done because the dataset wasn't big enough to support it, they didn't think of it, or because the result would conflict with the narrative they wished to present.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


That said, I certainly know Baptist and other non-conformist ministers who have encountered genuine sniffiness towards them on the part of the Anglican establishment. But it's never been anything I've encountered myself - although I'm certainly not pretending that it doesn't exist.

You are fortunate. I was (many years ago) a member of a large team ministry in a strongly RC town (the Catholics had more churches and immeasurably more people than we did). The team rector made a big thing about being 'rector of X' and used to make condescending comments about the Catholic priests who couldn't understand real life because they were not married; despite the fact that the RC priests were mostly local, working-class, and understood deeply what it was like to live the sort of life most people in the town did; whereas the Anglican team was very largely middle-class, 'posh', and lived in their own world largely consisting of regular sherry parties in one another's vicarages.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
...The single most common form of formal voluntary work in the report was "Promoting Church (e.g. coffee mornings)" (66%). In second place were "Christian Charities" (60%), and in third was "Choral/musical, cultural activities, hobbies" (31%). You'll notice two things about these top three examples. The first is the stark drop off after the first two. (The fifth is 24%). The second is that all of these are centered around the Church itself and helping the church (singing in the Church Choir counts as formal voluntary work in category 3). Most formal voluntary work from those surveyed is directly to support the church.

Good analysis, IMO. I'd just note that, of those 60% who volunteer for 'Christian charities', many might be involved in 'outward-facing' work, i.e. work with those who are not involved in their church. That could represent a lot of time given to help those in need of one sort or other.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Justinian is right.

Thinking about the 2 Anglican parishes in our town, the evangelical one has far more people involved in keeping the show on the road and does do things of wider worth and significance - a well attended Friday night 'yoof' group and a Job Club and various groups for pensioners, mums-and-tots and so on ...

It also has quite a lot going on with local schools.

The liberal parish has a largely - but not exclusively - older congregation but many more of its regulars appear to be involved in other things - Rotary, the local council, various Fair Trade, peace & justice and other issues.

I'm involved to some extent with both. What I do notice is that fewer of the evangelicals turn up to community events or to arts initiatives and so on unless they think there's going to be some kind of overt platform in it for them ...

That's a sweeping generalisation, I know, but it ain't that far off the mark ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Good analysis, IMO. I'd just note that, of those 60% who volunteer for 'Christian charities', many might be involved in 'outward-facing' work, i.e. work with those who are not involved in their church. That could represent a lot of time given to help those in need of one sort or other.

Thanks.

Unfortunately the actual question was whether someone had volunteered for Christian charities in the last year. This is intensely cynical of me (one reason it wasn't included in my last comment) but any such question should normally be seen though a lens that the most common answers will be to just make the minimum required for the question.

And with specific knowledge of British churches, Christian Aid Week comes once a year. One evening of delivering envelopes and one evening of collecting them is more than enough to fit into the proportion that volunteered for Christian charities in the last year.

So yes it could represent a lot of work, as you say. But the question is broad enough that all it can really estimate is an upper bound for engagement.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Welby seems to be seriously deluded and grandiose about his/our role.

Welby seriously disillusions me for his naivete.

I kind of agree - except for the deluded part. AFAICT Welby is a bag carrier for the moneyed parts of the Establishment (it's no surprise that he came into the ministry via HTB).

Politically, he's probably more or less where IDS is - so his talking up of food banks is probably 'appropriate'.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
So yes it could represent a lot of work, as you say. But the question is broad enough that all it can really estimate is an upper bound for engagement.

True...

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Welby seems to be seriously deluded and grandiose about his/our role.

Welby seriously disillusions me for his naivete.

I kind of agree - except for the deluded part. AFAICT Welby is a bag carrier for the moneyed parts of the Establishment (it's no surprise that he came into the ministry via HTB).

Politically, he's probably more or less where IDS is - so his talking up of food banks is probably 'appropriate'.

Heh. We (as in our church) run a food bank. We differ from the ambitions of some in that we hope to have zero food banks in the UK in the future. They want lots.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Agreed. I donate to a food bank as an act of solidarity. But I think that every food bank should have a huge sign on the wall saying "In a decent society, places like this wouldn't exist".
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

Politically, he's probably more or less where IDS is

Evidence??

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

Politically, he's probably more or less where IDS is

Evidence??
What would constitute evidence in your book? He says things that could have been drafted by the former Centre for Social Justice - while simultaneously not really being willing to take on TPTB.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[qb]
On the subject of the OP, there is a particularly unpleasant form of Anglican superiority-consciousness which exaggerates the 'benefits' of establishment and marginalises other Christians. I want no part of that. However, in many places (villages and some inner-city areas) to all intents and purposes the C of E is the Church,

Yes, well - some of us in the non Anglican churches are well aware of this on the ground. At the recent installation of a new priest to the local group the new incumbent referred to "his" parish in language that left everyone who wasn't an Anglican, seething at the arrogance of it all. The irony is that his own 3 churches had been doing very little in the communities they represented. It wasn't easy to follow such rubbish with a few gracious words of welcome on behalf of the ecumenical scene, I can tell you - but I managed it.

As for Justin's comments, well to a certain extent non Anglicans have got used to that kind of stuff. We don't welcome it, nor agree with it, we just accept it's there and get on with what we are doing.

It's a pity though we can't all recognise what the other is doing and work together to do it much better. It doesn't exactly help trying to work with churches at war with themselves nor those with such lengthy chains of command and decision making that by the time they've responded the need is over.

[ 16. July 2013, 06:16: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
EM - I think it's a bit like the way some of the "new churches" view the older establishment. I've heard a leader of such a place go on about there being "no Christian witness for miles and miles" having just driven through a number of Peak District villages with rather obvious church spires, chapels, etc. passing him by.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think the CofE is one force for social cohesion among others. As a national institution that should be taken as read. To an extent, other churches and even other faith groups seem to want it to speak on their behalf, and less religious folk still value it as one of several guardians of the national heritage.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
EM - I think it's a bit like the way some of the "new churches" view the older establishment. I've heard a leader of such a place go on about there being "no Christian witness for miles and miles" having just driven through a number of Peak District villages with rather obvious church spires, chapels, etc. passing him by.

I take your point entirely but Christian witness IMHO is a bit more than just being part of the scenery.

Fewer and fewer people are aware of the church and what it stands for unless the church itself makes that clear. Simply seeing a spire or a chapel doesn't resonate with most people - they have no idea that there's a listening ear or a warm welcome available. That's always subject to the latter being available - IME that's not always the case: it isn't just Anglican churches that give off the aura of a cosy club of like minded mates when you get close to it.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007

 - Posted      Profile for Merchant Trader     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
ometimes a church can be a force/witness for good by just being. Where else do you find a body of people 1/3 African, 1/3 Caribbean and 1/3 white and mixed background meeting peacefully and regularly with common purpose in poor areas with known community tensions? There are all sorts of tensions in S London but relatively high levels of church going. Not all churches have the same degree of ethnic mixture as the one I am thinking about and many of the new churches seem to draw from mainly a single community. But the CofE church I am describing is not unique amongst Anglican churches in the area. There are some similar e.g. methodist churches and some Anglican churches are not as mixed but I do sense that particularly many of the CofE churches in the area are generally likely to be a force for social cohesion through the very act of coming together. Even better when it extends to church members doing things socially together.

--------------------
... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

Posts: 1328 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Plus ca change ...

Didn't good old Richard Baxter have some interesting things to say about all this back in the 17th century?

From memory, and without looking it up, he observed that the 'Papists' of his time effectively 'damned everyone else' by insisting that you had to be RC in order to be saved, that the episcopal or 'state' churches had their own particular besetting sins that were commensurate with their status and position and that the independent and Anabaptist groups were guilty of having a rather 'holier-than-thou' attitude towards anyone else.

We can none of us always see the plank in our own eye.

Certainly the CofE can be guilty of a kind of ecclesiastical snobbery at times, but the same thing happens in reverse - there can be a kind of inverted snobbery about some Baptist and other non-conformist churches which they are often unable to detect themselves.

For all the times I've heard a Baptist or 'new church' type leader or minister complain at snooty treatment from CofE clergy I can think of occasions when Anglican clergy have been made to feel that they aren't 'proper' Christians or aren't 'kosher' or that their church isn't really a church in the true sense of the word yadda yadda yadda ...

It cuts both ways, I find.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Merchant Trader:
Where else do you find a body of people 1/3 African, 1/3 Caribbean and 1/3 white and mixed background meeting peacefully and regularly with common purpose in poor areas with known community tensions?

On the pitch at Arsenal? [Smile]


(Actualluy but the area they play in doesn't really count as poor any more - so substitute Charlton or Millwall.)

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools