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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: They don't need no public education...
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Aaron Osmond, Utah state senator (and yes, related to *those* Osmonds) thinks mandatory education is past its sell-by date.
Thoughts?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Any thoughts?
Sure. State Sen. Aaron Osmond (R-South Jordan) is an anti-American toad.
This line of attack on Education is all of a piece with the starve-the-beast approach some folk take to the size and scope of American government at all levels.
They can't advocate for their proposed changes in reasoned political discourse, so they propose to tear the entire edifice down.
Political impotents turned vandals.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
There are days I think maybe getting mandatory education is a good idea. However
if you look at the needed capacity to deal with things, well like this computer well education is still needed.
To think that education, public or otherwise is uneeded sounds like an idea of a person who wants to move back to the rural
early 19th century. Sorry that would not work.
I think that governments must be ready to lay
out cash to support public education.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Quite apart from anything else, the most cursory glance through the newspapers of the time would probably disabuse him of the notion that there was a lost "golden age" when education was "an opportunity," parents were more engaged and teachers were more respected.
Certainly here, where education became compulsory in 1872, parents then were like parents now - some were keen, some would rather their children were out earning money, some were engaged, some were indifferent.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
Parents who do not care? I would bet the vast majority of parents care when their children are in elementary school. However, by the time their children reach high school the amount of parents that care seem to drop significantly. Instead of doing away with public education I would think one would want to find a way to keep the parents interest and involvement all the way through graduation of high school.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The article struck me as a further step to separate the haves from the have naughts. Shifting "responsibility" to the local level includes funding? Poorer areas will have less money and fewer resources. All making it more difficult to cross income lines.
Like his photo, the devil smiles most when doing evil.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
The most that can ever be pulled off is mandatory showing up on a somewhat regular basis until a kid is old enough to drop out. While most kids appear to want to learn, it seems some wouldn't be interested in learning unless they faced severe punishment for learning and they want to be rebels.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Osmond wrote about his proposal on his Senate Site page.
Even scarier than his ideas are the enthusiastically supportive comments on that page!
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I know people think California is a strange world of its own--and to some extent, that's true. But, reading those comments, Utah is much, much stranger.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
I pretty much agree with what he has written except that there may be diamonds left in the rough if some lousy parent who doesn't have a problem with ignorance isn't getting what could be a bright kid to school. Because of complaints similar to his I do know that some kids are homeschooled or sent to private schools. My wife retired after 30 years of teaching and, while testing would always put her classes at the top of the state, there would always be the kid or two she wished were homeschooled or otherwise not there because they were disruptive.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I pretty much agree with what he has written except that there may be diamonds left in the rough if some lousy parent who doesn't have a problem with ignorance isn't getting what could be a bright kid to school. Because of complaints similar to his I do know that some kids are homeschooled or sent to private schools. My wife retired after 30 years of teaching and, while testing would always put her classes at the top of the state, there would always be the kid or two she wished were homeschooled or otherwise not there because they were disruptive.
Yes things are always better if we can somehow get rid of socially problematic minorities.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
One of the founding principles of a civilised society is that we try to set minimum standards for the welfare of children, because even if their parents make spectacularly bad choices it's not the kids' fault. This principle gets eroded a fair amount - just now in the UK there are mumbles about reforming (removing) council house provision for teenage mothers, because apparently girls are getting pregnant in order to get a flat. Whether or not that's true (I think it's a pretty dubious hypothesis myself) the kids still need a place to live even if we don't like their parents. They still need to eat. They still need the opportunity to have an education. We still need some understanding that children are people in their own right, and it's unacceptable to punish them for having rubbish parents (as if having rubbish parents wasn't enough of a punishment already).
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
It is arguable that a public school system is more Christian than most churches, in that the school system takes in all kids in order to work with them, while the churches prefer to deal with only those who fit their requirements.
That may be why so many Christians decided to home-school, once the presence of blacks in the public schools became mandatory. Christianity is obviously the home of discrimination.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
It is arguable that a public school system is more Christian than most churches, in that the school system takes in all kids in order to work with them, while the churches prefer to deal with only those who fit their requirements.
That may be why so many Christians decided to home-school, once the presence of blacks in the public schools became mandatory. Christianity is obviously the home of discrimination.
In Britain our state schools are becoming increasingly socially segregated, and so are American ones, I hear. Everyone has the right to an education, but some get a far better one than others.
On the other hand, almost everyone is obliged to go to school; homeschooling is much rarer, especially in the UK. But churchgoing is a choice, which means that the people who go are self-selecting. Unsurprisingly, this means that churches tend to develop a certain homogeneity.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I pretty much agree with what he has written except that there may be diamonds left in the rough if some lousy parent who doesn't have a problem with ignorance isn't getting what could be a bright kid to school. Because of complaints similar to his I do know that some kids are homeschooled or sent to private schools. My wife retired after 30 years of teaching and, while testing would always put her classes at the top of the state, there would always be the kid or two she wished were homeschooled or otherwise not there because they were disruptive.
Yes things are always better if we can somehow get rid of socially problematic minorities.
For the most part it seems that the parents were just as flummoxed as the people at the school were.
"socially problematic minorities" what do you mean by that?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I particularly love this bit:
quote:
Some parents completely disengage themselves from their obligation to oversee and ensure the successful education of their children.
How conveniently he glosses over the necessity many parents have of working 2-3 (or more!) low-wage &/or part-time jobs simply in order to keep those same kids clothed, fed, and housed.
quote:
Some parents act as if the responsibility to educate, and even care for their child, is primarily the responsibility of the public school system.
Say whut?
If it isn't the responsibility of a parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system to teach the young how to read, write, and reason, while interfering with their regrettable tendency to maim and harass one another in the process, what responsibilities DO belong to the parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system? Did We-the-People set up public education simply to satisfy some urgent, yet mysteriously invisible, desire to spend tax dollars?
I'd say more, but this thread is out-of-place for that. Why aren't we in Hell?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I pretty much agree with what he has written except that there may be diamonds left in the rough if some lousy parent who doesn't have a problem with ignorance isn't getting what could be a bright kid to school. Because of complaints similar to his I do know that some kids are homeschooled or sent to private schools. My wife retired after 30 years of teaching and, while testing would always put her classes at the top of the state, there would always be the kid or two she wished were homeschooled or otherwise not there because they were disruptive.
Yes things are always better if we can somehow get rid of socially problematic minorities.
When you speak of 'socially problematic minorities', are you speaking of racial groups?
My schoolteacher friends have given me the impression that disruptive kids can belong to any racial group, and some of them are from well-to-do families.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My schoolteacher friends have given me the impression that disruptive kids can belong to any racial group, and some of them are from well-to-do families.
I'm pretty sure that's all Mere Nick was talking about. Strange that so many people seem to have assumed he meant ethnic minorities, isn't it?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
In Britain our state schools are becoming increasingly socially segregated, and so are American ones, I hear.
I don't know if that's true for all parts of Britain. There is social segregation here in that some schools clearly have a more affluent catchment area than others, but that's always been true. It's not "increasingly" true. I live in an area, Aberdeenshire, which has 16 comprehensive state secondaries, one state comprehensive with a specialist competitive entry music section attached and two fee-paying schools. One of the fee-paying schools is a Montesorri which doesn't present pupils for enough exams for University entrance, and is therefore of limited appeal, and the other is geared towards oil industry families who are here for a limited period and don't want to follow the Scottish curriculum.
Some children commute into Aberdeen City to attend a fee paying school there, but the vast majority (I'd assume over 95%) of children are state comprehensive educated and it works fine.
(There are almost 16,000 children in state comprehensive secondaries in Aberdeenshire; I don't know what number are none-state educated.)
[ 18. July 2013, 13:03: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think it's unlikely Hawk was talking about race/ethnicity when he made that comment. He's reacting to Mere Nick's suggestion that teaching would be so much better and easier if you could just get rid of the one or two disruptive kids from the class. I must admit that made me blink too.
Education is more important now than it ever has been. In a modern society you need to be literate and numerate just to deal with government bureaucracy, hold down a fairly basic job and try to stay out of debt. If you want to be a success you are more or less obliged to go to university and get a degree, because most professional-level jobs require it nowadays (this may change in the near future as higher education gets more expensive). Children who are entering school now may have to retrain several times during their working life and they will have to compete in the jobs market with people from all over the world.
We need everybody, not just the nice well-mannered kids from supportive families. We need to educate them because they may have talents that will enhance our society (how are you going to know they don't if you never give them a chance?), but even if we don't we should educate them because it's not their fault if their parents don't value education.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
We need everybody, not just the nice well-mannered kids from supportive families. We need to educate them because they may have talents that will enhance our society (how are you going to know they don't if you never give them a chance?), but even if we don't we should educate them because it's not their fault if their parents don't value education.
The problem is that one very disruptive kid can seriously detract from the education of all the other children. The disruptive kid doesn't learn much either.
Many schools seem to have no idea how to deal with disruptive kids.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My schoolteacher friends have given me the impression that disruptive kids can belong to any racial group, and some of them are from well-to-do families.
I'm pretty sure that's all Mere Nick was talking about. Strange that so many people seem to have assumed he meant ethnic minorities, isn't it?
My wife taught about the first half of her career at a city school with a significant number of black kids. The most trouble she ever told me about was that one black girl stole some canned biscuits and some dishwashing liquid. When my wife talked to her about it she found out that the girl's mother was too busy partying to worry about the dirty dishes and that the doughnuts she would make from the biscuits, like my wife taught them to make, would be the only chance of her little brother getting anything like a birthday cake. To work things out the girl did work after school from time to time for my wife and would keep her informed of what was needed so she could earn it instead of steal it.
It was after my wife transferred to a virtually all white school out in the county that she had to deal with the occasional disruptive kid who was lazy, disruptive and seemingly just plain nuts. The main minority in that school would probably be kids from Mexico. When my mother-in-law died it was the Mexican kids who loaded up my wife with all sorts of gifts such as plants, money, and the like.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
[QB] I think it's unlikely Hawk was talking about race/ethnicity when he made that comment. He's reacting to Mere Nick's suggestion that teaching would be so much better and easier if you could just get rid of the one or two disruptive kids from the class. I must admit that made me blink too.
Why would it make you blink? In my wife's school the kid would either have to stop being a disruption or be sent to ISS (in school suspension). Kids who are serious about learning and teachers serious about teaching don't have to put up with that crap.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
(to Moo) That's true. But refusing to have them in public education at all is not the answer. Severely disruptive children with parents who don't care about education won't be homeschooled; they will be left unsupervised to watch the telly or play computer games or vandalise the local shopping mall. That makes them a danger to themselves and to other people.
The London riots happened in the middle of the school holidays...
[ 18. July 2013, 13:20: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Mere Nick: quote:
In my wife's school the kid would either have to stop being a disruption or be sent to ISS (in school suspension).
Oh, I see. It sounded like you were advocating refusing to have them in school at all.
Being sent out of class for causing a disturbance is a reasonable punishment; being deprived of any chance of an education is not. The second is what the senator seems to be advocating...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Just one question. When parents start exercising their right not to send their children to school, who will pay the children's welfare, when they grow up and can't get jobs because they're not literate or numerate?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Mere Nick: quote:
In my wife's school the kid would either have to stop being a disruption or be sent to ISS (in school suspension).
Oh, I see. It sounded like you were advocating refusing to have them in school at all.
Being sent out of class for causing a disturbance is a reasonable punishment; being deprived of any chance of an education is not. The second is what the senator seems to be advocating...
If you were sufficiently bad you could be kicked out of school for a few days, too, as a last resort. The ones that really don't want to be in school will probably go ahead and drop out when they turn 16. I'm sure there are some things a student can do that would get them permanently expelled.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Just one question. When parents start exercising their right not to send their children to school, who will pay the children's welfare, when they grow up and can't get jobs because they're not literate or numerate?
Don't be silly, Adeodatus, All the little girls, when grown, will be supported by thejr husbands while pumping out new "arrows" for their "quivers" annually.
All the little boys, when grown, will hit their daddies up for quarter-million-dollar loans to get their start-ups going. Honestly, some people just have no idea how to run their lives.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The problem is that one very disruptive kid can seriously detract from the education of all the other children. The disruptive kid doesn't learn much either.
Many schools seem to have no idea how to deal with disruptive kids.
There's an issue there with what to do with disruptive kids, and what point at which they should be removed from a classroom. But the issue of what to do with kids whose parents can't be bothered to educate them is completely separate. There seems to be an assumption that the disruptive kids are the same kids who wouldn't be sent to school. I can't see that there's any evidence for that. There's a very obvious difference between excluding a child from school because of the child's own behaviour, and excluding him/her because s/he has rubbish, neglectful parents. Because the kids who will stop going are the ones that have rubbish, neglectful parents - at the moment, mandatory schooling is a godsend to these particular kids because it means they have to have contact with the world outside their dysfunctional family home, so there's a greater chance of someone noticing that something is wrong.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
If it isn't the responsibility of a parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system to teach the young how to read, write, and reason, while interfering with their regrettable tendency to maim and harass one another in the process, what responsibilities DO belong to the parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system?
It is the responsibility of the school, but it is also the responsibility of the parents.
One of the many jobs that a parent has is to ensure that his or her children are educated appropriately. Most parents choose to use the state education system to obtain this education (and in the case of the majority of parents, it's not much of a choice, because there's no charge for the state system, but private schools are expensive and homeschooling pretty much means one parent not working).
This doesn't relieve parents of their obligation to ensure that their child is educated, though. If your child's school is not providing an appropriate education for your child, it is your obligation as a parent to do everything you can to fix that.
I also think that access to a decent education, just like basic healthcare, housing and food, is something that we, the taxpaying people, should guarantee. This doesn't mean that the state has to run the schools, or run the healthcare system. There is much, to my mind, to be said for a system of education vouchers.
Plenty of the things that Mr. Osmond says are correct - some parents are inept and dysfunctional, and there are plenty of parents who actively interfere with a school's attempt to impose order and discipline. It is also the case that one disruptive child can make a huge difference to the education received by the rest of the class.
But the response of society cannot be to say to those children "you have sucky parents, so you're on your own."
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There seems to be an assumption that the disruptive kids are the same kids who wouldn't be sent to school. I can't see that there's any evidence for that.
True that. Some parents will make sure their little holy terrors are at school every time the doors are open just for the free day care aspect of it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There's a very obvious difference between excluding a child from school because of the child's own behaviour, and excluding him/her because s/he has rubbish, neglectful parents.
In the experience of Mrs. Cniht, who taught in inner-city schools, there was a strong correlation between a child being disruptive in class, and his mother coming in to school and yelling things like "you can't fucking do anything to my fucking child, I know my fucking rights."
There were other children who were normally-behaved, but had inept parents who wouldn't manage to get out of bed in time to bring them to school on time in the morning, would give them a packet of biscuits as a meal because they couldn't manage to produce an actual meal, and would keep their children off school because "I wanted to take them shopping".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There's a very obvious difference between excluding a child from school because of the child's own behaviour, and excluding him/her because s/he has rubbish, neglectful parents.
In the experience of Mrs. Cniht, who taught in inner-city schools, there was a strong correlation between a child being disruptive in class, and his mother coming in to school and yelling things like "you can't fucking do anything to my fucking child, I know my fucking rights."
Not to mention that things like hunger often make children act up more.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Not to mention that things like hunger often make children act up more.
Which is why they thought free lunches in India would be such a wonderful thing...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
In Britain our state schools are becoming increasingly socially segregated, and so are American ones, I hear.
I don't know if that's true for all parts of Britain. There is social segregation here in that some schools clearly have a more affluent catchment area than others, but that's always been true. It's not "increasingly" true. I live in an area, Aberdeenshire, which has 16 comprehensive state secondaries, one state comprehensive with a specialist competitive entry music section attached and two fee-paying schools. One of the fee-paying schools is a Montesorri which doesn't present pupils for enough exams for University entrance, and is therefore of limited appeal, and the other is geared towards oil industry families who are here for a limited period and don't want to follow the Scottish curriculum.
Some children commute into Aberdeen City to attend a fee paying school there, but the vast majority (I'd assume over 95%) of children are state comprehensive educated and it works fine.
(There are almost 16,000 children in state comprehensive secondaries in Aberdeenshire; I don't know what number are none-state educated.)
I do accept that every area is different. In my large English city many schools have become more racially segregated, which translates into greater social segregation, I would say.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Mere Nick: quote:
In my wife's school the kid would either have to stop being a disruption or be sent to ISS (in school suspension).
Oh, I see. It sounded like you were advocating refusing to have them in school at all.
Being sent out of class for causing a disturbance is a reasonable punishment; being deprived of any chance of an education is not. The second is what the senator seems to be advocating...
Then you get the kids who are disruptive not just for the fun or whatever of it, nor because the parents are neglectful, but who are frustrated and feeling left out because of learning disabilities.
As school budgets are slashed, there are fewer and fewer resources to deal with kids who have special needs, particularly those with what are considered milder disabilities, who don't qualify for full-on special education programs. So these kids have to try to cope in a regular classroom where the teacher just doesn't have the time to give them the extra support they need to succeed.
For example, my adult son has a mild auditory processing disorder that interferes with both his ability to understand spoken instructions and his organizational skills. He struggled for his entire school career. Most of the time, his teachers just didn't have the time to work with him individually to make sure he understood what was going on. He would become bored and his attention would wander as he lost track of the lesson. Then he would distract other students. And he got labelled as a disruptive student.
Other than implementing a few insufficient and ineffective remedial measures after he was clinically diagnosed, the best advice the school could offer was to put him on medication for ADHD, which was entirely unacceptable for several reasons. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Ideally he should have been in a smaller class or one with a full-time assistant. But the resources just weren't there.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Back to the politician. He has a nice smile just like the rellies. But he is silly, very silly, except that apparently he has some power. That's dangerous, but many politicians are idiots in the real sense.
I would like to see if he has the competence to teach: poetry, algerbra, history, geotrig, evolutionary biology, and perhaps the most important thing that schools teach: how to be part of a larger social entity and to get along with peers. Utah appears to be a pretty weird place.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Friends who are teachers say most of their time is just maintaining order, not teaching.
The solution is not to shut down schools, but to give school authorities a right to effectively discipline disruptive students.
"The Canadian Teachers Federation conducted a study in 2005 that found one-third of teachers in Ontario had been bullied by students" teachers are bullied
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Back to the politician. He has a nice smile just like the rellies. But he is silly, very silly, except that apparently he has some power. That's dangerous, but many politicians are idiots in the real sense.
I would like to see if he has the competence to teach: poetry, algerbra, history, geotrig, evolutionary biology, and perhaps the most important thing that schools teach: how to be part of a larger social entity and to get along with peers. Utah appears to be a pretty weird place.
I pretty much agree with what is on his webpage. It seems that to sum it up he saying that learning is important, teachers and students deserve respect, and if you can't understand that, then, no, you don't have to be here.
When I think of mandatory showing up at school, I think of something else that used to be a mandatory show up thing, the military draft. What would happen to complete screw ups there?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My schoolteacher friends have given me the impression that disruptive kids can belong to any racial group, and some of them are from well-to-do families.
I'm pretty sure that's all Mere Nick was talking about. Strange that so many people seem to have assumed he meant ethnic minorities, isn't it?
But then there are those parents/vocal social groups who are racist, even if they speak softly about their actual desire. This, at least, is/was the practice in the Old Confederacy after Brown, and it certainly was the practice in relation to native populations and some coloured groups in Canada/US/Oz
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My schoolteacher friends have given me the impression that disruptive kids can belong to any racial group, and some of them are from well-to-do families.
I'm pretty sure that's all Mere Nick was talking about. Strange that so many people seem to have assumed he meant ethnic minorities, isn't it?
But then there are those parents/vocal social groups who are racist, even if they speak softly about their actual desire. This, at least, is/was the practice in the Old Confederacy after Brown, and it certainly was the practice in relation to native populations and some coloured groups in Canada/US/Oz
What does that have to do with this thread, though?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Just one question. When parents start exercising their right not to send their children to school, who will pay the children's welfare, when they grow up and can't get jobs because they're not literate or numerate?
Don't worry. They'll join the army.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Mere Nick: quote:
In my wife's school the kid would either have to stop being a disruption or be sent to ISS (in school suspension).
Oh, I see. It sounded like you were advocating refusing to have them in school at all.
Being sent out of class for causing a disturbance is a reasonable punishment; being deprived of any chance of an education is not. The second is what the senator seems to be advocating...
I read Nick's statement the same way Jane did. It sounded like, "Some kids are too stupid for school; some too ill-behaved; worthless, no-account parents usually mean worthless, no-account kids; and they should all be grateful, or get out the door!"
Even if all of that were true, can you imagine what would happen if all those kids were turned loose? We're past the days when kids generally had an adult at home during the day. Child labor laws keep them out of most work. Many kids' only meals are what they get at school. So, worst case scenario: mobs of aimless, underfed, angry-at-adults (rightly) kids with nothing to do.
Yeah, that would be better than mandatory schooling.
Is that what you meant, Nick? Sure seems to be what Osmond meant.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Even if all of that were true, can you imagine what would happen if all those kids were turned loose? We're past the days when kids generally had an adult at home during the day. Child labor laws keep them out of most work. Many kids' only meals are what they get at school. So, worst case scenario: mobs of aimless, underfed, angry-at-adults (rightly) kids with nothing to do.
Does this mean (and I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying) that we have to fundamentally change what we mean by public education?
Is now as much about social services as it is teaching? Do schools now have the responsibility to check whether a child's had breakfast, a good night's sleep, wearing washed clothes, has something for lunch, hasn't been beaten/abused at home, doesn't have some underlying medical problem and needs to be taken to a doctor - before any actual lessons start?
Because if that's the case - and it's pretty much happening by default - then we're simply too under-resourced to do anything like that effectively. Lots of things would need to happen, the most profound of which would be the notion of parental responsibility, so that exchanges like this:
quote:
In the experience of Mrs. Cniht, who taught in inner-city schools, there was a strong correlation between a child being disruptive in class, and his mother coming in to school and yelling things like "you can't fucking do anything to my fucking child, I know my fucking rights."
Would end with "you've just lost the right to screw your child up any further. I'll see you in front of a judge tomorrow morning to get that formalised."
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
In the experience of Mrs. Cniht, who taught in inner-city schools, there was a strong correlation between a child being disruptive in class, and his mother coming in to school and yelling things like "you can't fucking do anything to my fucking child, I know my fucking rights."
There were other children who were normally-behaved, but had inept parents who wouldn't manage to get out of bed in time to bring them to school on time in the morning, would give them a packet of biscuits as a meal because they couldn't manage to produce an actual meal, and would keep their children off school because "I wanted to take them shopping". [/QB]
Yeah I've no doubt that many kids become disruptive at school because of poor parenting at home and a lack of boundaries. I think what I'm getting at here is that the kids with the very worst parents - ie those who tend to end up being taken and placed in foster care eventually - often suffer from being written off by others because they have bad parents, not because there's anything wrong with the kids themselves. It's not unusual for kids in foster care to discover that teachers have pretty much written off any likelihood of academic success for them.
My suspicion is that many of the worst behaved kids (excluding those with disabilities etc) are spoilt at home, or have parents who are simply unable or unwilling to say no - they learn as toddlers that tantrums work, and they're still using them to get their way many years later. If you make education optional, these children will likely still be at school.
The children who won't make it to school are the ones who've got parents who are too caught up in their own problems to bother much with their kids. These are the parents who are drunk and/or high in the middle of the day, or have severe mental health problems which are preventing them from functioning as parents. The kids are already in a bad place which isn't their fault. By saying that these parents don't have to bother sending their kids to school (general you), you're letting them do even more damage to their kids' future. You're also reducing the chance that responsible adults will discover how bad things are at home in time to do something about it.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Politicians LOVE the uneducated: its so much easier to pull the wool over their eyes. Don't give people the tools to have any sort of critical response, etc., etc.
I've been reading Scottish history recently, and the thing that strikes me most strongly was the fact that the Scots were miles ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of education by the early 19th century. It made them very restless and unwilling to follow blindly: not easy to govern (and a pain in the proverbial to the English). It made them adventurous and innovative - and the reason I'm reading about Scottish history is that all but 2 sets of my great great grandparents came to NZ from Scotland in the mid-19th century. Tracking them and their forebears down has been relatively easy, as they were literate, and lived in a society that valued record keeping.
I work with the parents of challenging kids, the kids teachers struggle with, who are generally not getting much of an education. Often their parents have also struggled with education. The government takes advantage of the fact that people like these don't understand how the world works. We hear a lot about benefit bludgers, but most of the poorer families I work with aren't getting the benefits they're entitled to because they don't know they exist. When I take them to meet with welfare, they're visibly terrified because they assume they'll be treated badly (and unfortunately, they're often right) so they become aggressive, and the cycle continues.
When I have the opportunity to talk with the kids about education, I always frame it as learning what they need to so no one can take advantage of them - you need to read to understand contracts (for rent, jobs, hire purchase etc.) and you need maths so that you don't get short changed or underpaid. Sadly, not many schools teach the skills that bluntly, which is a pity.
My other understanding of the value of education came during the 18 months I volunteered as a reading tutor at a high security prison. I did teach the practical stuff, looking at housing, benefits and other forms. It made me realise how much I take for granted the ability to plow my way through legalspeak - a skill none of my students had. So we looked at key words and their meanings and practised filling out forms (every alternate lesson we did from the Bible, as several of my students were Pacific Islanders who wanted to learn to read to their kids).
You'll have to excuse me saying this, but I read about the Taliban letter to Malala, and then this from Mr Osmond, and I wonder what the difference is.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
If it isn't the responsibility of a parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system to teach the young how to read, write, and reason, while interfering with their regrettable tendency to maim and harass one another in the process, what responsibilities DO belong to the parent-voter-established, parent-voter-funded public education system?
It is the responsibility of the school, but it is also the responsibility of the parents.
One of the many jobs that a parent has is to ensure that his or her children are educated appropriately. Most parents choose to use the state education system to obtain this education (and in the case of the majority of parents, it's not much of a choice, because there's no charge for the state system, but private schools are expensive and homeschooling pretty much means one parent not working).
Way to miss the point. The "state" education system is the creature of the electorate -- IOW, parents-voters-taxpayers. It was set up originally, back in an agricultural society, for several reasons:
1. to relieve those same parents, who were working hard to make their farms meet the household's material needs, of the duty of also trying to teach their children skills the parents themselves often lacked.
2. to ensure that the next generation had the advantages of basic reading, writing, and arithmetic (which originally pretty much fulfilled the educational needs of most citizens, though this is no longer the case, and the system has adjusted accordingly, or so we hope).
3. To instill some sense of a local, regional, national, community's history, ideals, values, and strictures in members of those communities.
That's what it was established for; those were or are its responsibilities. The Senator seems to me to be claiming the "state" (i.e., voter-created, taxpayer-funded, parent-overseen) system isn't, or shouldn't be, responsible for these things.
If those are not the responsibilities of the voter-created, taxpayer-funded, parent-overseen system, then what ARE its responsibilities?
[ 19. July 2013, 12:09: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I'm also pretty sure that education is only free of charge because it's mandatory. Those two aspects tend to be brought in together, and those campaigning for the "mandatory" part to be removed are not, of course, saying that they don't want their own children to be educated - just that they don't want them to have to be in the same room as children they don't like.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The "state" education system is the creature of the electorate
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Oh wait, you're serious? Well in that case:
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A little googling about education in the USA comes up with a statement by John Adams, 2nd President of the United States:
quote:
The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves.
Seems to me that Mr Adams knew a thing or two. But then, he was never President of Utah.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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