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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Christians criticize Mormonism?
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BWSmith
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# 2981
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Posted
It seems to me that if (orthodox) Christianity means anything distinct at all (theologically, intellectually, historically), then Mormonism cannot be legitimate (theologically, intellectually, or whatever).
As such, one would anticipate the desire for Christians to "oppose" it at some level, at least within the church (if not in the wider world).
And yet, in my experience, any open discussion of 'cults' in general (and Mormons in particular) is either low-priority or outright frowned upon, even among Christians. There seem to be three reasons for this:
a) Polemics/apologetics in general are "out of style".
The practical "point" of day-to-day modern Christianity is to fellowship, have prayerful/musical spiritual experiences, and fund missions that "fight poverty". As a bonus, one might possibly learn a Bible story or two and gain insight on the coming of the End Times.
But "fighting" over one's theological distinctives is "that thing the Reformers used to do hundreds of years ago". Since history has deemed that to be bad, then running in the opposite direction (never disagreeing with someone else's theology) is assumed to be good.
b) If there is a "battle" that Christians need to wage, it is against the larger secular world, and not against any religious groups.
The worry today is not that our children will run off with some cult leader, but that our children will stop coming to church and never come back. Hence, the movement for the "relevant, hip church" that ditches any tradition if it keeps one more young adult coming on Sundays.
(I brought up Mormonism in a Sunday School lesson, and to my surprise, one couple mentioned that their son had married a Mormon, and it was their opinion that the Mormons "lived better lives" than most Christians they knew. I experienced the same resistance when I attempted to criticize the Amish, who were regarded as "very faithful people". If the only standard for a good life is one that is "not secular", how can you argue against that?)
c) If Christians say anything derogatory against Mormons, it opens us up to ridicule from secularists about the "irrationality" of our own faith.
I have experienced this directly on other message boards. The split second someone derisively mentions "Joseph Smith, golden tablets, or holy underwear", the atheists immediately pounce to laugh at "6-day creation, the virgin birth or resurrection of Jesus, and the second coming". Rather than attempt to defend Christianity against the secular arguments, most Christians choose instead not to "cast rocks at glass houses" and leave the Mormons alone.
Christians will, however, join in the attack on cults that are led by secularists. Take the example of TV news specials on the Colorado City FLDS church. The stories focus on the "underground railroad" escapees, and their discovery of the wonderful secular world outside the oppressive, backwards compound. Watching these stories, I can't help but think that this narrative is ultimately an attack on us mainstream Christians, whom (atheists would say) need to likewise "leave our compound" and discover the secular world outside our church.
So I wonder, while it is unpopular and can be painful, do Christians have a responsibility to engage in polemical argument (against Mormons in particular), or are we content to let the secularists hold the monopoly on religious ridicule (and pray that God works everything out for us)?
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Presumably, there are pond differences here. Mormonism in the UK is a very minor faith group and just not on the radar for most UK Christians.
Personally, while I think there is some dodgy stuff in Mormonism, I would just regard it as a religion like any other and don't see the need for any special polemics against it from Christians. What would be your attitude towards polemics against Islam or Hinduism, both far larger faith groups in the UK?
Edited to add that the FLDS cult is really no longer related to mainstream Mormonism and it is unfair to compare the two.
[ 25. July 2013, 19:26: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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BWSmith
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# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What would be your attitude towards polemics against Islam or Hinduism, both far larger faith groups in the UK?
I would argue that the big difference in attitudes between Mormonism and Islam/Hinduism lies in (a) relative evangelism and (b) ethnic/cultural barriers.
Muslims and Hindus (for the most part) do not spend a lot of energy attempting to attract "new converts" the way that the Mormons do, and if an ex-Christian (of Caucasian descent) did attempt to change faiths, the language and cultural barriers that accompany fellowship with those bodies of believers are significant.
Many moons ago in high school, I did a comparative Christian denominations project, where I visited different churches to compare worship experiences. Of all the churches I visited, the Pentecostals and the Mormons were the most virulent in trying to keep me coming back (for months afterward).
As such, I can understand how people who feel alone or isolated in their mainstream churches can gain instant "family" by joining one of these groups. That "ease of transition" that they offer is what makes me consider them to be relatively "dangerous".
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Unlike Islam or Hinduism, Mormonism pretends to be the one true Church, whereas it is in fact not the historic Christian Church at all. This makes it imperative for orthodox Christians who confess the historic Creeds and Christology of the Church to actively oppose Mormonism.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun. sentences apostates to death, and believes the world must accept the Islamic way. However, Mormons are a much easier target - you won't get a fatwa against you if you say Brigham Young or Joseph smith were charlatans.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun. sentences apostates to death, and believes the world must accept the Islamic way. However, Mormons are a much easier target - you won't get a fatwa against you if you say Brigham Young or Joseph smith were charlatans.
That depends on which part of Arizona you live in.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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trouty
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# 13497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun. sentences apostates to death, and believes the world must accept the Islamic way. However, Mormons are a much easier target - you won't get a fatwa against you if you say Brigham Young or Joseph smith were charlatans.
That depends on which part of Arizona you live in.
Possibly, but I'd feel a lot safer slagging JS in and part of Arizona than I would criticising Mohammed in Bradford. I really do think that a lot of the anti-Mormons attack them because they feel safe in doing so.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun. sentences apostates to death, and believes the world must accept the Islamic way. However, Mormons are a much easier target - you won't get a fatwa against you if you say Brigham Young or Joseph smith were charlatans.
Islam is not a monolith, it is incredibly diverse. What you say about 'Islam' is only true of particular Muslim groups - even in Bradford.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
Nowadays we are more likely to join in a 'conversation' with Mormons the invite them to share our spiritual journeys and hope they feel as though they 'belong before believing'.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
Muslims and Hindus (for the most part) do not spend a lot of energy attempting to attract "new converts" the way that the Mormons do, and if an ex-Christian (of Caucasian descent) did attempt to change faiths, the language and cultural barriers that accompany fellowship with those bodies of believers are significant.
In Britain conversion to Islam is likely to be much more of a phenomenon than conversion to Mormonism. In my city there is only one Mormon church, but there are many mosques. Most of the Muslims are from immigrant Muslim families, but their presence probably makes more of an impact on the people who work and live near them than the fleeting presence of a mere handful of Mormon missionaries. A few months ago I was approached by two American Mormon missionaries; I haven't knowingly met any other Mormon missionaries for maybe 15-odd years. But I meet Muslims all the time. I've seen more Muslim material, and I certainly know, or know of, more converts to Islam.
I recently heard a local Baptist minister express his disapproval regarding a church member who'd said how much she enjoyed praying with her Mormon daughter. But I think that's the only time I've personally heard a Christian minister mention Mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses are far more visible here. The Jehovah's Witness door-knocking habits are mocked in British culture, but far fewer people will have had the contact with Mormons to be able to mock them in the same way.
Mind you, that recent musical about Mormons was very popular in London, contrary to some expectations. The review in 'The Economist' said that was because it played to a British sense of cultural superiority over these 'Americans'. I don't think the interest has much to do with theology, but most British people just see Mormonism as one especially weird example of a more generally weird American religiosity.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
Mormons convert you after you are dead. Hard to avoid that. Doing this to Jews has caused a bit of a ruckus.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Christians should only criticize themselves.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Mormonism received a fairly heavy duty makeover from the right-wing media in the US in order to make Mitt Romney palatable to conservative evangelicals as a Presidential candidates. 10 years ago most evangelicals would have said Mormons weren't Christians and that they wouldn't vote for anyone who wasn't a Christian. The second is too useful for the right wing machine to let go of so they went to work on the first.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun.
You really need to get out more.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Mormonism received a fairly heavy duty makeover from the right-wing media in the US in order to make Mitt Romney palatable to conservative evangelicals as a Presidential candidates. 10 years ago most evangelicals would have said Mormons weren't Christians and that they wouldn't vote for anyone who wasn't a Christian. The second is too useful for the right wing machine to let go of so they went to work on the first.
Interestingly, wherever Mormons lie on the heterodoxy scale, they are sufficiently secure in their beliefs vis-a-vis the larger U.S. society that by no means all Mormons supported Romney in 2012. John Huntsman, a former ambassador in Pres. Obama's first term and the most moderate candidate in the 2012 Republican primary, is a Mormon. (Of course as a moderate in extreme party he didn't do well.) And there were Mormons for Obama and an LDS caucus at the Democratic convention.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The Mormon's are having their own problems.
The rise of the internet is causing a number of Mormons to consider history and facts that aren't mentioned by the church.
some Mormons search the web and find doubt.
(NYTimes article, partial paywall)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Unlike Mormonism Islam makes converts at the point of a gun. sentences apostates to death, and believes the world must accept the Islamic way.
Inflammatory generalisations about Islam may derail this thread which is primarily about Christianity and Mormonism. If you want to have a serious discussion about militant tendencies in Islam, please start a separate thread.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians should only criticize themselves.
We aren't talking about presuming to judge individuals here, but rather critiquing the aspects of Mormonism that make it not Christian, not part of the historic Church by any stretch of definition. If the LDS "church" didn't present themselves as The Church,I think we could be more circumspect.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians should only criticize themselves.
That eliminates a lazy but convenient way to identify Christians on the hoof; they are the ones who are busy saying that other groups who call themselves Christians aren't real Christians.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
There are plenty Christians who can handle historical sources to academic standards to do church history or history of religions, and in historical terms Mormonism is about as credible as Dan Brown. But if you support literal-interpretation approaches to the Bible and all the historiographical failings that go with that, and regard the ability to do scholarly history as something for 'secularists' then yes indeed, it makes criticising hilariously awful pseudohistory and bonkers beliefs in other denominations a tad hypocritical.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Should Christians criticize Mormonism? Maybe not, but we should make it clear that it is not Christianity.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
After we´ve made clear how unChristian we are? Or is that implicit, especially in us criticizing, sorry, making clear?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Louise had it right, Martin. It seems perfectly proper to use critical methods in assessing the worth and doctrines of any religion, provided you accept the same fingers being pointed at your own.
I think the same criteria apply more generally to human interraction. I'ts a dimension of speaking the truth with love. Collusion with sincerity can be very tempting, but it's still collusion.
Timing matters, of course. There's a time to speak and a time to keep silent. The place matters as well.
If we have disagreements with friends which we know need resolving somehow or other, we choose our words carefully, look for the right time, and try to find the right place. People's religious affiliations are important to them. So, whether they are friends or not, it's a good idea to proceed with some caution. That doesn't mean you shouldn't proceed at all, just for the sake of peace and quiet. There's an art in effective confrontation over differences.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I had quite a few Mormon kids in my RE classes so we included their religion - I had to mug most of it up but I was very, very impressed in the hardships encountered by the early Mormons in their trek across the US - reads like Paul's missionary journeys and the stories of the martyrs.
I am also impressed by the sacrifice (though I know it's also an exciting rite of passage) of their young missionaries - I always try to engage in civil conversation when they knock on my door, though joking about offering them tea or coffee.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We don't have much for Mormons here. But we do get white shirt, black pant, tie wearing "missionaries" from the USA ringing doorbells and trying to present their views. Except that it is always 2 young men looking rather like a stereotype of Jugend military than a mixed gender, all ages group, they could be Jehovah Witnesses. On hot days, we've had a habit of asking if they'd like a glass of water, and send them off after that. They never come in the winter so we don't have to ask if they need to warm up for a few minutes. A statement that "I'd rather not talk about that" is sufficient to shut down discussion of their religious beliefs. This is a generalisation, but they seem more friendly than the JWs. I suspect it is because the Mormons have travelled and the JWs are local.
Incidently, brief conversation on more than one occasional appears to indicate that they don't call themselves "Mormon". They use the term LDS, though using the term Mormon means that everyone understands whom we're talking about. Not sure if the term Mormon is simply not their preferred term or if there is something else about it. We're led to understand that it is actually growing quite quickly as a religion.
Is it Christian? I would think it is sort of a hybrid and combination with some local ideas. The larger issue is that they like to consider themselves Christian, unlike others, such as Jews and Muslims. I don't think TV series about men with 4 or 5 wives and 17 children help their cause well, even if this is a fringe element. It is about as helpful as narrow-minded avaricious fundamentalist televangelists. I'm not sure if these TV people are exactly Christian either.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Islam is not a monolith, it is incredibly diverse. What you say about 'Islam' is only true of particular Muslim groups - even in Bradford.
"What you say about the XYZ folk is only true of particular XYZ groups - even in Bradford."
This is the most common truism when someone criticizes Islam. But the fact there are different trees does not mean nothing meaningful can be said about the forest.
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Mormonism received a fairly heavy duty makeover from the right-wing media in the US in order to make Mitt Romney palatable to conservative evangelicals as a Presidential candidates. 10 years ago most evangelicals would have said Mormons weren't Christians and that they wouldn't vote for anyone who wasn't a Christian. The second is too useful for the right wing machine to let go of so they went to work on the first.
Yeah, strange that. Personally I'd no sooner vote for a Mormon than I would a Scientologist, in other words, never.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
What I do not understand is:
On the one hand we say Mormons are not Christian but another religion (in German we'd call them "Neuoffenbarungsreligion" a "religion with new revelations" because of their 3 holy books apart from the Bible). Nothing wrong with having another religion per se, is there? Why should that be a reason for criticizing them? Let alone be polemical?
On the other hand we complain when they do mission work among our "flock".
But you can't eat your cake and have it. Only Christian churches seek agreements against "sheep-stealing", anybody else must have the right to seek to persuade others. So if they are another religion they can try and win over Christians to their own faith, don't they?
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Mormonism received a fairly heavy duty makeover from the right-wing media in the US in order to make Mitt Romney palatable to conservative evangelicals as a Presidential candidates. 10 years ago most evangelicals would have said Mormons weren't Christians and that they wouldn't vote for anyone who wasn't a Christian. The second is too useful for the right wing machine to let go of so they went to work on the first.
Yeah, strange that. Personally I'd no sooner vote for a Mormon than I would a Scientologist, in other words, never.
The trouble with that stance is that people can apply it to any religion.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
They look more like 1960s IBM salesmen than what I assume you mean by "Jugend". And a little weird, sort of alien, you don't see people like them in real life.
Round here JWs come over as much more normal. Women more often than not, often black or both black and white, also typically an older and a younger person in each pair. They look far more like a random selection from local population than the Mormons do.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Mormonism received a fairly heavy duty makeover from the right-wing media in the US in order to make Mitt Romney palatable to conservative evangelicals as a Presidential candidates. 10 years ago most evangelicals would have said Mormons weren't Christians and that they wouldn't vote for anyone who wasn't a Christian. The second is too useful for the right wing machine to let go of so they went to work on the first.
Yeah, strange that. Personally I'd no sooner vote for a Mormon than I would a Scientologist, in other words, never.
The trouble with that stance is that people can apply it to any religion.
Of course.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
What I do not understand is:
On the one hand we say Mormons are not Christian but another religion... Nothing wrong with having another religion per se, is there? Why should that be a reason for criticizing them? Let alone be polemical?
On the other hand we complain when they do mission work among our "flock".
But you can't eat your cake and have it. Only Christian churches seek agreements against "sheep-stealing", anybody else must have the right to seek to persuade others. So if they are another religion they can try and win over Christians to their own faith, don't they?
I think (from the perspective of our side) it's a question of being evasive about religious differences.
Christians would be happy to treat the Mormons as "another religion". Unfortunately, to the extent that they don't advertise their unorthodoxy, they benefit from squeezing under the "Protestant umbrella" and saying "we're Christians too".
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
There seems to be some sort of tacit understanding among most of the clergy with whom I am familiar that it is unseemly to criticize other flavors of Christianity no matter how off-the-wall their teachings. This certainly seems to be the case with Mormonism, assorted types of fundamentalism and pentecostalism. I have had private conversations with several Lutheran clergy persons who have said that in their personal opinion Mormonism is a long way from orthodox Christianity but they have avoided saying so in a public forum.
On a recent Sunday our congregation professed belief in the Athanasian Creed.(Thank goodness we do that only once a year!) If one accepts that as a definitive understanding of orthodox Christianity then the Mormon teaching regarding the Trinity puts Mormonism outside of traditional Christianity.
I've read both criticisms and defenses of the historicity of the Book of Mormon and to my mind it seems to be an amalgam of late 18th and early 19th cent. beliefs that are entirely unsupported by modern historians and/or scientists;i.e. the native people of North America are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel. Would it be unkind of me to point that out to any of the young men in white shirts and ties that I occasionally see knocking on doors in my neighborhood?
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Having been the object of sustained and energetic conversion attempts (long story) some years ago, I was driven to actually look up a fair bit on Mormonism.
When they come around (and they do), I have no trouble politely but clearly calling them out on the nonsensical aspects of their religion-- the Book of Abraham totally undermines the claims of divine origin of their works. And we will not even get into church authorities and their pronouncements (e.g., that the US constitution is divinely inspired). The young (and very sincere) representatives get uneasy when you go offscript and doubly so when you are able to demonstrate that you actually know something about their stuff.
Their claims of authority are absolute. Their theology disallows Trinitarian thought and baptism and they cannot honestly expect orthodox trinitarian Christians to recognize their beliefs and sacraments as acceptable. That some try suggests to me that they either do not believe their own narratives, or that they are lacking in intellectual integrity. And I will not even touch the question of those trinitarian Christian churches and bishops (TEC???) accepting their baptisms.
While they are parallel to Muslims in basing their beliefs on additional scriptures, they do not yet have a body of art and poetry which attracts me. Still, I like to chat with them on Mormon traces in the Battlestar Galactica narrative.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
To what extent does this discussion apply equally well to "should Christians criticize Christian Scientists" or to "should Christians criticize Seventh-Day Adventists"?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I criticise everyone. Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, pagan, atheist, Scientologist, Belieber, Lutheran, whatevs.
Although I spend the most time criticizing Episcopalians, as that's the group I've hitched my theological pony to.
Of course, I don't criticise because I believe I have the ONE TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD AND ALL OF HER CREATION like the OP seems to think one needs to have an opinion on faith. I criticise because I'm testing to see what is good.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
To what extent does this discussion apply equally well to "should Christians criticize Christian Scientists" or to "should Christians criticize Seventh-Day Adventists"?
Probably to the same extent, assuming the teachings of Mrs. Eddy and Mrs. White are as heterodox as those of Mr. Smith.
But I think Mormonism makes a juicier target for the inquisitors, since it actually has a whole set of extra-biblical stories that it presents as on par with the Bible. Whereas Christian Science and SDAism present shadow-cabinet explanations of how everything is supposed to work, but for the most part leave the Bible itself unrivalled for authority.
That said, I do recall reading something somewhere about a trend toward deification of Mrs. Eddy among the Christian Scientists at one time. Still don't think they were outright adding books to the Bible, however.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well said HCH. Barnabas62, I´m sure you´re right mate but I was responding to Mousethief. And yes Louise preempted (or presaged? or even presciented!) what I said and I would have been senile(r) to say what I said if Mousethief hadn´t said what they said in between.
Which looked nicely (and therefore can´t be, because this is Mousethief (sorry! what Mousethief said) we´re talking about here, well I am) like unintended irony.
On Friday evenings Christadelphians come and serve the poorest of Leicester, should I stop them from joing in the prayer groups?
One Mormon lady came once. I made her most welcome. Perhaps if I´d persecuted her she´d have come back?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
To what extent does this discussion apply equally well to "should Christians criticize Christian Scientists" or to "should Christians criticize Seventh-Day Adventists"?
Perhaps the reason for reticence in some cases is that although some groups have an unorthodox theology, their members' daily lives and church commitments seem very similar to everyone else's. If we're talking about seriously strange behaviour then yes, everyone piles on. But otherwise it can come across as uncharitable or tasteless to criticise, except within the pages of theological journals. The Mormons have gradually toned down their strange behaviour over the decades, even though their beliefs may remain exotic. This might be why the criticism has declined.
Re the SDAs, I have many of them in my extended family, and they'd be seriously shocked to be described as non-Christians. I understand vaguely that they used to be a problem because of the status accorded to Ellen G. White's writings. But didn't they formally clarify later that these writings were in no way on a level with the Bible? I don't know. I've been given some of the books but never been sufficiently interested to read them.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
To what extent does this discussion apply equally well to "should Christians criticize Christian Scientists" or to "should Christians criticize Seventh-Day Adventists"?
Well, Adventists are recognizably Christian despite their Sabbatarian peculiarities. As far as Christian Scientists go, I'm always tempted to whip out my Linda Richman imitation and say, "I'll give you a topic : Christian Science is neither Christian nor scientific. Discuss."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
What I do not understand is:
On the one hand we say Mormons are not Christian but another religion (in German we'd call them "Neuoffenbarungsreligion" a "religion with new revelations" because of their 3 holy books apart from the Bible). Nothing wrong with having another religion per se, is there?
Only when they claim to be a subset of Christianity. Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and Baha'is don't claim to be Christian.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
...they do not yet have a body of art and poetry which attracts me.
Does Napoleon Dynamite count?
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Augustine, While the Mormons don't seem to created any artistic or poetic masterpieces, they do seem to be very much interested in dance....which strikes me as very odd.
As the recent US Presidential Elections have demonstrated, at least some Mormons also excel in historical fiction.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
...they do not yet have a body of art and poetry which attracts me.
Does Napoleon Dynamite count?
Or Orson Scott Card, if you happen to like SF.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
While the Mormons don't seem to created any artistic or poetic masterpieces
Whether it qualifies as "masterpiece" is another question, but I would say that their temple architecture is quite distinctive.
They seem to have a few standard genres in use, but even then, all manage to look rather distinct from other buildings in that style, and similar to each other.
The San Diego Temple
I mean, I guess it's neo-Gothic, in a somewhat overworked, excessively ornate sort of way. Like it or dislike it, it does cut it's own path.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I did note that I referred to artistic expression which attracted me-- it may be that the context in which things were presented to me may not have helped.
And in any case one should perhaps pay some attention to Anthony Trollope's comment about Mormons-- that he would not judge a man for being a Mormon, but he would if he were a bad one.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Their temple architecture is certainly striking. The temple in DC makes a very distinct addition to the skyline. Too bad I will never be permitted to see the interior.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
The Mormons are big in my town and, interestingly enough, not particularly Caucasian.
I even work with a couple of Mormons. They remind me of old-fashioned Puritans - very thrifty, family-orientated, assiduously avoid any talk that is off-colour, and don't make too many jokes.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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