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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cursillo-bane or blessing?
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
In my experience, Cursillo has been a difficult and even painful thing. I have seen Cursillistas in parishes form their own groups to the exclusion of others. They often regard the Cursillo community as more valid and important than the parish community and they pressure people to become like them by attending Cursillo or face a from of shunning. They judge and criticize the worship and music in their parishes by comparing it unfavourably to their Cursillo experience. No doubt there are good people who are part of Cursillo, but sadly there are many who don't understand that it is to enhance and enable their faith and participation in the parish and wider church. Instead, they confuse the message with the packaging and see Cursillo as the solution to every personal and church problem and its worship as a template for all valid liturgy. Their cult-like devotion and sense of superiority (they know the "secrets") makes unhealthy people even more unhealthy. How have people experienced Cursillo and how has it affected you or your congregation?
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
My parents were into it in the 80s and 90s, as part of quite a big group in the parish. I didn't like what I thought was an unnnecessary air of secrecy around the whole thing. That said, it did very good things for their spiritual lives and for their marriage- after years in which they bickered a lot, they pretty much stopped and when I remarked on it to my mum, she said that it was the Cursillo that they had to thank for it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I "made" my Cursillo about twenty-five years ago. It was a very intense experience for me. On the whole I think it was a good and energizing experience, but intensity in many forms makes me uncomfortable, so I didn't join the Ultreya (after Cursillo) movement.
Twenty years later I was asked by a friend who was in charge of organizing a weekend to volunteer to work in the kitchen. I did, and it was a good experience. I even got a chance to sit in on a few of the participant seminars and it was a good refresher in aspects of Christianity. But it still did not persuade me to become active in the movement.
I'm sorry this has happened in your church. I don't think it is necessarily a usual thing. But given a certain chemistry in a group of people, it doesn't surprise me that it happens sometimes. Some people do love their tribes and forming pecking orders with themselves at the top.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I made my cursillo a long time ago, and got involved enough to be on several teams and to be diocesan lay director. Then it was right for me to move on to other things, and I did. Some people I know made their weekends, were heavily involved in parish and diocesan affairs for 10-12 years and then decided it was time for them to be more involved.
It's like any other tool that can be used -- you can use it well, and some do, and you can use it badly, and others do.
As for considering the cursillo movement more "your church" than your parish, I'd think that usually a bad thing, but...
I've known people (Anglican) who have no choice but to attend the local parish on SUnday, but who find the music dead, the worship appalling, the preaching pointless and the whole thing only worthwhile because the eucharist is their. For them, cursillo can (depending on the circulstances) provide refreshment in a way the local church does not.
And I've also known people (PC this time) who went to their local parish church because that's the rule. THis was a place where there were 2 masses on Saturday night and 5 masses on SUnday morning, just to handle the people (5,000+ families, one priest). Mass was 45 minutes, max -- leaving 7.5 minutes to clear the parking lot from the first service and 7.5 minutes to fill it for the nest. The people I know found that cursillo (and some other non-parish activities) really was their true parish. In their circumstances, I can see it.
I found a long time ago that for cursillo, and most other church things, that what you can say in general about them is not generally true or useful.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I did a cursillo in my adolescence and appreciated what it could do-- however, it was not for me. Over the years I had a number of friends and acquaintances pass through it and, while I sometimes found them annoying in their enthusiasm, it seems to have been a good thing for them overall.
Certainly, in most Anglican parishes where I knew it had operated, it was important in keeping people going through the interminable meetings and bickerings of being active in parish life. Perhaps there were in-groups but, as I saw so many in-groups, another one did not bother me.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I attended Cursillo in 1996. I really needed it; I was going through a rough divorce, and I really did feel loved and affirmed. It was like balm on a raw wound. I know there are others who think it's manipulative or emotional fluff or whatever. For me it was healing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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anglocatholic
Apprentice
# 13804
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Posted
I made my Cursillo in 1999. I found it weird and I actually walked out mid way through it.Very cult like IMHO.
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An Anglican from Sydney but not a Sydney Anglican.
Posts: 34 | From: Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
My only exposure came when we moved to another church. The Cursillistas of this anecdote were strongly motivated to bring people in and share the experience, but, with the various busynesses we had, the time was not right. Eventually the (former) Cursillistas became the center of a very damaging, negative group that basically destroyed that church. They continue to whine about how nobody but them does anything.
I am glad that other people had better experience and results.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'm pretty sure we had this debate last September.
The upshot was that the organisation is very homophobic but that it has a high view of lay ministry in secular.
You obviously read a different thread than I did. I've never seen a suggestion that Cursillo is homophobic -- I've never seen evidence that Cursillo (=individual diocesan movements) has ever asked a question about or taken a stand on things like sexual orientation. The movement in my diocese, for example, has nothing homophobic about either its teaching or its practice. If it tried to, our bishop would sort it out very quicly.
Individual cursillistas, like all individual Christians, of course may be homophobic.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
I found a very right-wing, anti-intellectual, evangelical, rather fundamentalist group of people. Cursillo may ot have made them that way, but it certainly appealed to them. The rather rigid programme (everything scripted) appeals to people who like rules and structure. When I went, I felt definite pressure to think and react in specific ways. I tried to comply (raising my hand during the singing-something I don't do) and was told afterward how relieved they were that I finally seemed to have met their expectations. In other words, I wasn't a good enough Christian until I got my Cursillo credentials.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The upshot was that the organisation is very homophobic but that it has a high view of lay ministry in secular.
In our cursillo movement in the early 80's the weekends were so effective in communicating God's love for each of us as we are that more than once a gay person at the end of a weekend expressed how much it meant to them to that God loved them as a gay person and accepted them as such. The local Cursillo community as a whole reflected the divisions on this subject along the same fault lines in the Church as a whole. The acceptability, or not, of gays never came up on the weekends themselves. The conflict came afterward when sides were taken as to what was an acceptable role for a gay person working the weekends (one side, all roles open, the other side, not allowed to give one of the talks). Almost split the community in two, just like the greater church.
Otherwise, my experience and our community resembles John Holding's description of his. My "weekend" and my deep involvement in Cursillo for a few years were very important to my spiritual development and I am very grateful for it. I have not been involved in it in anyway for the last 25 years though my spiritual journey carries on.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hazeldean:
I found a very right-wing, anti-intellectual, evangelical, rather fundamentalist group of people. ... The rather rigid programme (everything scripted) appeals to people who like rules and structure. When I went, I felt definite pressure to think and react in specific ways.
I have friends who have gone and loved it, I have friends who have gone and said it was OK (with a shrug), and I have a friend who loved it but says I would not like it because of the rigidity. You are the only other person who has mentioned rigidity to me.
Someone said to me with a smirk "you don't want to go because you can't stand the idea of taking off your watch for a weekend." I pointed out I was not wearing a watch at that moment, in fact had not worn one in ten years, and don't carry a cell phone either.
It's great that some people love it so much they can't imagine anyone not wanting to go. And I expect some hang together because of having that experience in common.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I went on one, and it made a powerful impression at that time. I have been on team as a SD, and on the state board, for a certain period of my life.
Then I decided I had moved on. There is none where I am now, and I do not miss it at all.
It opened me up to some new directions. I found God there in a different way. I loved the friendship and the support, and put up with the structure. I wanted others to find it meaningful, which was why I then went on team
We were urged not to make it a group of holier-than-thou, and I never found it so.
It was right at that time in my life.
Now I think I would go insane with the structure, but now I am 10 years older.
It was a blessing for me back then.
Now I don't need it or want it at all.
The Protestant group here is called the Emmaus Walk, btw.
[ 02. August 2013, 02:05: Message edited by: Rowen ]
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Just who invented this name 'cursillo'?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
Rigidity can be a problem in the weekend. People have a moving experience and think it is that rigid structure that makes it happen (plus I think when newly a true believer in something we develop fascist tendencies for awhile). We made a concerted effort to be more flexible, let people have some space. I forget some of the terms now but the weekend that I was the Lay Rector (head guy) I remember one person was getting upset because she did not know what the schedule was. I gave her the schedule, asked her to keep it to herself. She could barely contain herself waiting in the front of the line for the surprise party she now knew was about to happen.
When I became the Lay Director of the community one of my jobs was to address the new cursillistas (sp?) at the end of their weekend. The first thing I did was apologize for anything we did that got in the way of their experience with God, that we and our structure had little to do with it. I also emphasized that there was no right response from our point of view. Who were we to decide what was good and what was not good in their personal encounter with God. I know from experience that that is not always the message and I was certainly reacting to my on negative feelings about some aspects of Cursillo when I said those things.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'm pretty sure we had this debate last September.
The upshot was that the organisation is very homophobic but that it has a high view of lay ministry in secular.
You obviously read a different thread than I did. I've never seen a suggestion that Cursillo is homophobic -- I've never seen evidence that Cursillo (=individual diocesan movements) has ever asked a question about or taken a stand on things like sexual orientation. The movement in my diocese, for example, has nothing homophobic about either its teaching or its practice. If it tried to, our bishop would sort it out very quicly.
Individual cursillistas, like all individual Christians, of course may be homophobic.
John
I copied various comments from last year including quote:
”While there is nothing at all in the Cursillo creed per se that would preclude Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered (GLBT) people from participating, in practice the types of people who run Cursillo tend to be pretty homophobic. And while I think it could be terrific if there could be a GLBT Cursillo in some broad-minded Diocese, I would be pleasantly stunned if the Cursillo secretariat in the said Diocese would allow it.”
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
John Holding said "I've known people (Anglican) who have no choice but to attend the local parish on SUnday, but who find the music dead, the worship appalling, the preaching pointless and the whole thing only worthwhile because the eucharist is their. For them, cursillo can (depending on the circulstances) provide refreshment in a way the local church does not."
I find this most telling and troubling. Were these parishes really a barren wilderness, or did they seem so when compared to a Cursillo weekend/Ultreya, etc? Did these Cursillistas see themselves in a position to judge? Did they support or agitate within the parish? Did they prefer fellow Cursillistas to other parishioners? Did they work with or undermine the clergy? Did they complain about the organist and music? It seems arrogant and unChristian to go around bad-mouthing their parish and clergy to others, especially within the Cursillo community. This is certainly not the purpose of Cursillo-to sew division and create a spiritual "elite".
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
leo: "Cursillos" - short courses - Eduardo Bonnin.
I'm well aware of what cursillo means, but I didn't see why they'd choose a Spanish name. Now I understand that its creator was Spanish.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Why would you assume they were bad-mouthing their parish? I have in the past regularly attended a church that did little for me. I attended it for my family. I did not complain to them or to the rest of the church. However, I sometimes attended small group worship that did much more for me. I doubt anyone in that small group cared, but if they had, they might have easily guessed that I found the larger church a barren wasteland as far as my worship experience was concerned. That doesn't mean the small group took me away from the church. In fact, that small group made me less likely to just give up on church.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
I did not say thatbthey bad-mouthed their parish-I asked if they had done so. But to be honest, I have heard Cursillistas do that, but they're not alone. On the issue of homophobia, the Cursillistas I have encountered are a mixed bag, but the majority were "social conservatives" who wanted a parish like that. Like many movements, people are drawn to groups whose worldview suits them and Cursillo seemed to fit their conservatism. Why wouldn't it? It began is fascist Spain.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
without typos:
I did not say that they bad-mouthed their parish-I asked if they had done so. To be honest, I have heard Cursillistas do that, although they're not alone. On the issue of homophobia, the Cursillistas I have encountered are a mixed bag, but the majority were "social conservatives" who wanted a parish like that. Like many movements, people are drawn to groups whose worldview suits them and Cursillo seemed to fit their conservatism. Why wouldn't it? It began in fascist Spain.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hazeldean:
John Holding said "I've known people (Anglican) who have no choice but to attend the local parish on SUnday, but who find the music dead, the worship appalling, the preaching pointless and the whole thing only worthwhile because the eucharist is their. For them, cursillo can (depending on the circulstances) provide refreshment in a way the local church does not."
I find this most telling and troubling. Were these parishes really a barren wilderness, or did they seem so when compared to a Cursillo weekend/Ultreya, etc? Did these Cursillistas see themselves in a position to judge? Did they support or agitate within the parish? Did they prefer fellow Cursillistas to other parishioners? Did they work with or undermine the clergy? Did they complain about the organist and music? It seems arrogant and unChristian to go around bad-mouthing their parish and clergy to others, especially within the Cursillo community. This is certainly not the purpose of Cursillo-to sew division and create a spiritual "elite".
Let me first say that I don't have a clue as to who you are in real life. But from your avatar and location, I know the cursillo movement you experienced, and was, indeed, both its lay director (decades ago) and a weekend rector (again, 15 years ago or more). You obviously know (or could know) who I am, from my avatar and location.
Having said that, I was going to reply at length to your two posts -- but I realize that's not appropriate on this forum. TO the first point, I'll just say I believe your experience of cursillo in this diocese was not true of its first 15 years, and was stamped on by the bishop when he realized how badly things had gone wrong. I'd agree with many of your comments on that score, but that's not the whole truth or -- I hope -- the truth today.
And to the second point, you've asked some valid questions -- raised some obvious and well known issues. I know the people to whom I referred, and I hope you will be comforted to know that their motives and actions passed the tests you set for appropriate christian behaviour. Others, of course, whether cursillistas or not, do not pass those tests, but I was not referring to such.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I went 20 years ago. I found it more about the surprises and less about faith. I remember thinking, " Would they just leave me alone for 5 minutes." Please deliver me Baby Jesus was my reaction to the week-end That said, I know a number of people who have found it very helpful in their spiritual journey. I would guess the experience depends a lot on your own personality type and the people running it. I also found a number of people who wanted to go again and again rather then moving on. They were into building a booth and staying on the mountain with Jesus it seemed. I have never been where Cursillo was a problem in a church but I have indeed heard it happens. I think one fault may be when the original Cursillo guide lines don't get followed, and it changes into who can do bigger and better surprises. .
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
To John Holding: I have an idea who you are and you were not part of my weekend. I liked many of the people at my table and those who ran the weekend and I respected their commitment. I think the parish where I encountered some of the things I have mentioned was a bit of an anomaly-maybe a "bad batch". Or maybe it was other factors within the parish itself.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
Still very involved in the Ottawa Anglican Cursillo, and overall, it's been good for me. I don't believe I am homophobic particularly nor right-wing.
In Ottawa, about three-quarters of the Synod members have made a Cursillo, fwiw. And about 10 % of the Diocese.
[ 03. August 2013, 01:38: Message edited by: HenryT ]
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I went 20 years ago. I found it more about the surprises and less about faith.
Oh yes, mum and dad talked about the surprises. That all sounded horribly cheesy and group-huggy to me. But as I said above, Cursillo did some very good things for them.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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womanspeak
Shipmate
# 15394
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Posted
I'm just back from an Emmaus Walk ( think ecumenical Cursillo) and it was made very clear that it was not a secret group but we were encouraged to talk about our experience to others.
I expected a "retreat" and was surprised by the pace and rigour of 15 presentations etc. But I too loved the worship, so different from my former parish or any parish I can access regularly. And I loved the care and comfort of all participants.
I arrived at a very, very difficult, but particularly apt time in my life. I left with a sense of clarity about future paths and feeling blessed despite a week of major challenges to come.
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from the bush
Posts: 62 | From: rural australia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
I still think it became something of a fad and people were attracted to the exlusivity of knowing the secrets and belonging to an "in" group. I was once told that I couldn't be hugged unless I went to Cursillo. I sense that the Cursillo phenomenon has largely waned and in some Dioceses has faded out. You don't hear much about it any more. It seems to be people of a certain age who have gone. I still think that it is a kind of "Christianity lite" that uses surprises and gives people extraordinary attention to draw them in. As I said, I hear little about the teaching, but a lot about the personal touches.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
I've been on one and staffed one one, although I'm not involved in the Ultreyas and organisational side. I think it has good things about it and things that are perhaps less positive.
I'll start with the things that I think are positive. In my diocese, probably through happenstance, Cursillo has spread mostly through Evangelical churches (though this doesn't represent the tradition that most of the clergy involved come from). Because you have to be sponsored to go on a weekend, it spreads mostly by word of mouth. My feeling is that it does something interesting for the evangelicals who go on it, which is allow them a worship holiday in a more sacramental and liturgical tradition than they can get, or enjoy, in their home churches. Stations of the cross, for example, may be part of the regular diet at some churches, but my guess is that it is novel if all your experience has been in evangelical churches.
Having heard the sequence of talks and meditations twice, I do think there is something very powerful in the way it takes participants through the elements of the spiritual life. I think the 'three legged stool' it builds of study, piety and action is a good foundation for Christian discipleship, and the lay talks are -- in my experience -- a good witness of how those are lived out in individual Christian lives. I found the meditations (done by the clergy) prayerful and thought-provoking and in some cases moving.
As for the surprises, of course one remembers them. But -- and I say this not knowing at all what the situation is in other dioceses -- it seems to me that the ones I have attended haven't emphasised the surprises over the more fundamental aspects of the weekend. And the surprises are, of course (and are intended to be) a powerful witness of how a loving Christian community might work and follow through from the sacramental emphasis of the movement.
Finally, the other thing that seems to me valuable is the way the weekend is supposed to work not as an end in itself but to a reinvigoration of one's life as a Christian, through the 'fourth day' groups (fourth day of Cursillo = the rest of your life), which are supposed to encourage you in your piety, study and action. So, ideally, it's not just a whizz bang weekend, but something that supports you in the longer term.
For me, once I'd seen it twice, I could see that the scriptedness of the weekend was restrictive. But I also see that that could help to keep it from going off in all sorts if weird and particularly not very healthy directions. I don't myself go in for all the rainbow clothing and butterfly jewellery stuff -- and I think there is a tendency for a certain sort of people to get into all that. I think I would set against the potential for clubbiness the possibility that for some people, in difficult church situations, it may be a source of spiritual renewal and support that they are not getting at church.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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