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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Churchiness' as a compensation for inadequacy
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
One of the the enduring impressions one gets from depictions of the Church in popular culture over at least the past 100 years or so is that the local church is attended largely or exclusively by those who are compensating for some sort of inadequacy in other parts of their lives. Miss Prism in 'The Importance of Being Earnest', pretty much every character in every one of Barbara Pym's books, several in the works Alan Bennett, and in Rev.
The general model is either a single or widowed woman 'of a certain age' (which doesn't have to be that old) or else an unmarried man of any age. In the case of the male example but usually not of the female counterpart, there will be a suggestion that he is probably gay and in the closet. Generally, these characters are not shown to be unintelligent (often quite the opposite), but they may or may not lack basic social skills. They seldom if ever work in high-status and occupations and they are never more than comfortably middle class in lifestyle, more showing a sort of 'genteel poverty'. The great unifying factor, though, is that romantic love plays little if any role (or at least any positive role) in their lives. I thin I remember some literary critic saying that the narrative arc of every Barba Pym novel leads to the protagonist's realization that she will never be loved.
Recently, I've come to recognize a funny thing about these portrayals: they're all true. Well, okay, maybe there's a bit of exaggeration here and there, but not that much. And the 'churchier' one is, the more likely one is to fit into it: . the people who make coffee and arrange the flowers are more likely to fit into this mold than those who only sit in the pews, and those who come to the evening mass on red letter days are more likely to fit into it than those who come only on Sundays and Holy Week (and as for the daily communicants!).
I've realized that I am one of the people I'm talking about: a professionally unsuccessful, at real danger of being single for the rest of my life, who attends church at least a couple of times a week (going through periods where I attended Mattins, Mass, and Evensong every Sunday, and others when I was a daily communicant).
I know we all fall short in the eye's of God, but I'm talking specifically about people who are, very much failures according to society's view.
I'm certainly very happy that the Church provides a refuge for these people (by which I mean people like me), but I'm interested in the communal pathology of it all. Do you think most churchgoers are using church to fill the, often quite substantial, gaps in other areas of their life?
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
They are caricatures. There are plenty of people in churches (and there are churches in the UK other than the CoE, which these depictions almost universally concern themselves with) who are nothing like those stereotypes.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mili
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# 3254
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Posted
I really don't think you can generalise like that. I pretty much fit your mold except for age, but so do many non-Christians and Christian non-church attenders. All the churches I have attended have had people from all walks of life. That included the church I attended while living in London and the churches I visited. My childhood church had a major split and the congregration are mostly elderly now, but many are married or widowed and have grown up children and grandchildren.
Perhaps some small churches attract people who fit your stereotype who do not feel comfortable in a larger church, or find they don't fit in among all the married people and families at other churches.
As to society's views on who is a 'failure', I find most people, if you dig a bit, feel somewhat inadequate compared to other people, no matter what their life circumstances. People can be rich and famous, but still insecure because other people are richer or more successful or they fear losing all they have gained.
Most people probably struggle to accept themselves for who they are and be happy with what they have. Church can help people in this or can encourage a competition over who is the churchiest, best evangelist, rules the church kitchen, best singer, most popular single person, best husband/wife or parent etc.
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TomOfTarsus
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# 3053
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Posted
Welcome to the ship! You know, I've often wondered just such a thing about myself. Though I'm not a frequent churchgoer (long story), I am certainly socially unsuccessful, and while I earn a good salary and am happily married, I'd be quick to say that Christianity (and my self-perceived understanding thereof) may well be a self-compensation for my painful lackings in other areas. I wonder, because prior to my great crisis, I had thoroughly deceived myself, and the last thing that I want to do is wander down some other overgrown path of thorns and trouble.
We all look for value and self-worth somewhere, and if all else fails we'll try and get it from God (yes, that's served up with a wink...). And that's how lost we are because he's the only source of worth that there is. So maybe these "unsuccessful" people that you self-describe as, are more successful than you realize - "for the first shall be last, and the last shall be first..." Unless, of course, you are hiding from God in Church, I've seen that done too!
Blessings,
Tom
ETA: cp'd with those between me and the OP.
[ 05. August 2013, 19:39: Message edited by: TomOfTarsus ]
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
there are churches in the UK other than the CoE, which these depictions almost universally concern themselves with
My own experience is pretty heavily Anglican-centric, but my limited experience would suggest that the local Friends are not wildly different (but a bit older on average). And, although I'd agree that the versions in television sit-coms are caricatures, those in the more serious works I mentioned aren't. They're at one end of a continuum, perhaps, but that end of the continuum is very heavily represented in real life. At least in my experience.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
The main difference between the sort of people who go to church and the rest of society is that churchgoers go to church.
That is all.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Not much point going to church, then?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
There are a number of reasons why people go to church. A deep and abiding Christian faith is only one of those reasons.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
So church is pretty much irrelevant?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Do you think most churchgoers are using church to fill the, often quite substantial, gaps in other areas of their life?
Ha! Your post was a bit close to the bone! It rang a bell with me, kind of, but don't expect most of the churchgoers here to be too quick to declare themselves misfits and losers!
Sociologically speaking, there are certain groups who are said to get validation from church life that might be denied to them elsewhere. But it's not simply a question of experiencing a validation deficit, because the most deprived people in a society rarely if ever attend church. Churchgoers in the UK statistically have a higher level of education than the population at large.
As for the culture, I'm currently quite interested in representations of low church Protestant Christians and church life in contemporary British literature. There's not a lot of writing about that these days, but what there is is fascinating because it offers a different take on the stereotypes.
[ 05. August 2013, 20:13: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sociologically speaking, there are certain groups who are said to get validation from church life that might be denied to them elsewhere.
Could you expand on that? It really goes to the heart of my question.
[ 05. August 2013, 20:16: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So church is pretty much irrelevant?
No, but your questions are.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Fine. Enjoy your little hermetically sealed life.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I'm certainly very happy that the Church provides a refuge for these people (by which I mean people like me), but I'm interested in the communal pathology of it all. Do you think most churchgoers are using church to fill the, often quite substantial, gaps in other areas of their life?
I suppose that is a true observation. Unfortunately the churches I tend to go to keep going on about this Jesus fellow, who exposes yet more substantial gaps in my life I would have preferred to remain unaware of.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
While there are people who fit some of these stereotypes, they are not the majority. That's why writers like to use stereotypes-more ordinary people don't make a good story. I have realized that most people have problems and issues in their lives whether or not they go to church. There are quirky people in churches, but there are quirky people who do almost anything.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sociologically speaking, there are certain groups who are said to get validation from church life that might be denied to them elsewhere.
Could you expand on that? It really goes to the heart of my question.
Some work has been done on the apparent appeal of Christianity for women, and on why churchgoing attracts certain kinds of women more than others. To put it very simply, there are aspects of Christianity and church life that seem to align with women's traditional role as caregivers, nurturers and sacrificial beings, as well as providing a palliative response to the anxiety that women experience in their greater closeness to birth, sickness and death. The church offers social and material support that women may value in the care of their families.
Immigrants are another group whose levels of religiosity are said to be quite high. Church life offers opportunities for status and social validation that may be absent in the menial work they usually have to do, and in some western Christian countries churchgoing serves as a way of integrating them into the wider culture.
The overrepresentation in pew and pulpit of gay men and other men with characteristics that challenge cultural masculinity has been noted as well, and various reasons are given.
In the past I've posted some interesting links on these subjects.
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Ahleal V
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# 8404
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Posted
I remember a rather hideous comment on the Grauniad Comment is Free boards a good few years ago which said something like quote:
I've never been to a church, but I imagine it has the same feeling of people who just haven't quite made it in life, the same feeling as you get on an online-dating site.
I remember being quite offended by that comment, and when I think about it, most of the people I know at church are not failures, but just about somewhere in the middle of things. Of course, to go to church as an under-35 person marks you out as a bit weird anyway, so maybe there's something self-selecting in this. If we were all happy and content with our lot, the world and the flesh, would we be seeking the Gospel message that we do?
I'm not sure.
What I'm growing increasingly sure of though, is the fragility of success, and those who have the outward signs of it. The shift from happy, contented, and successful can be destroyed (forever in this life?) by, say, an accident, a redundancy, a divorce, a bereavement. Any and all of the above.
And if the Gospel speaks to those people, and not to the happy and the good, then maybe that's what our founder would want (and still wants) in the end?
x
[ 05. August 2013, 21:28: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
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would love to belong
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# 16747
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Posted
I'm inadequate and want to be part of a church, so guess I fit the stereotype. Mind you, admitting inadequacy anonymously is one thing, this thread kind of puts me off going to church and thereby putting my inadequacy on public display as it were.
[ 05. August 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: would love to belong ]
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
One of the the enduring impressions one gets from depictions of the Church in popular culture over at least the past 100 years or so is that the local church is attended largely or exclusively by those who are compensating for some sort of inadequacy in other parts of their lives.
Doesn't everyone have some sort of inadequacy in some part of their life?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
quote:
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.”
There are plenty of places in modern society for people to feel lonely and inadequate. You don't have to pick a stereotype. However many churches often have traditional/stereotypical roles for people to take should they chose. This is probably in part because churches are often shrinking so there's no competition for the roles. It's probably different in a church that is growing rapidly. I suspect these might have the usual struggles for control of the power.
The other thing you might be noticing is the number of desexualized roles that were traditionally filled by spinsters, widows, closeted gay men and lesbians. This might push people into the background.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
I'm inadequate and want to be part of a church, so guess I fit the stereotype. Mind you, admitting inadequacy anonymously is one thing, this thread kind of puts me off going to church and thereby putting my inadequacy on public display as it were.
You have to remember that those impressive people you meet in church are just hiding their inadequacy. You'll be fine - they won't notice because they're too busy hiding their own inadequacies!.
But 'inadequacy' is an unfortunate word. Who defines adequacy? Some people deal with their short comings by drinking or beating their partners, some by going to church and/or trying to be a useful member of society. The former makes you feel better short term, the latter may make you realise that your inadequacies aren't that important (or, in meeting others, that you aren't doing too badly).
Don't think of it as a compensation, it's more an alternative adequacy.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
The church is made up of wounded people. Sometimes, the church is the only place for them.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I knew there was a reason why I have been putting off reading Barbara Pym.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The church is made up of wounded people. Sometimes, the church is the only place for them.
This. I found it profoundly distasteful on the Alpha TV programme where one of the members said something like 'I was afraid that the church would be full of uncool people, and that wouldn't do at all'.
Ideally, a church should be a mixture of people for whom life has dealt a bad deal and also people for whom life has been a success. And I have noted, time and time again, that the ones who help and enrich the lives of the others aren't always the way round that you would expect.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
The heart of the gospel (good news) is the reversing of social convention. Those thought (by society) to be unfortunate or poor (in a variety of ways) are exalted, esteemed and blessed (beatitudes, magnificat, Isaiah proclamation in Luke 4 etc etc.) by Jesus.
For those of us that feel like losers in some way or another, this is very good news indeed. Even if society does not esteem us, God does.
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a theological scrapbook
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Fine. Enjoy your little hermetically sealed life.
Enough with the personal sniping. Either put a cork in it or take it to Hell.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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This space left blank intentionally.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The church is made up of wounded people. Sometimes, the church is the only place for them.
This. I found it profoundly distasteful on the Alpha TV programme where one of the members said something like 'I was afraid that the church would be full of uncool people, and that wouldn't do at all'.
Ideally, a church should be a mixture of people for whom life has dealt a bad deal and also people for whom life has been a success. And I have noted, time and time again, that the ones who help and enrich the lives of the others aren't always the way round that you would expect.
Yes. A church where the wounded, damaged and uncool (ugh, glad I never saw that Alpha TV thing!) aren't welcome is no church of Christ's.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ideally, a church should be a mixture of people for whom life has dealt a bad deal and also people for whom life has been a success. And I have noted, time and time again, that the ones who help and enrich the lives of the others aren't always the way round that you would expect.
This exactly!
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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argona
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# 14037
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Posted
At the churches I attend, I find pretty much the same mix of people as I meet anywhere else. And yet, anywhere else, that similar mix of people is almost entirely - as far as I can tell - atheist, or at least not at all interested in church. Does that say anything? Maybe not.
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ideally, a church should be a mixture of people for whom life has dealt a bad deal and also people for whom life has been a success. And I have noted, time and time again, that the ones who help and enrich the lives of the others aren't always the way round that you would expect.
We tend to take turns at being successful and failing. Or maybe some of us are better than others but still get dealt a whammy at times. I console myself it is about finishing well. Hopefully I have several decades left before I need to on an sprint finish.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Cara
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# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I knew there was a reason why I have been putting off reading Barbara Pym.
NO!! Don't let this put you off, please! Barbara Pym's novels are brilliantly written, deeper than at first they may seem, very funny indeed--though with an underlying sadness, yes--and full of wonderful things. I have every single one of her books and re-read them on occasion for sustenance and a kind of comfort difficult to convey. I'd suggest starting with Excellent Women.
As to the OP: a church is a place where you can go and are welcome even if you don't know anyone, and don't know much about what is going on there. Very few other places, no pubs or clubs for example, are easy for a person to just walk into, and either stay in the background, or find out more, or become involved, as they choose.
And then of course, as has been said above, especially by Evensong, the gospel turns social conventions upside-down. Those least esteemed in life may be the most esteemed in Heaven.
And wounded people find sustenance in Christ. If they also find a role for themselves, a way of being involved in something and being a part of something that they haven't found elsewhere in life, so much the better.
Whether there are more "misfits" and "loners" etc in church than in other areas of life--I don't know, I think it would vary from congregation to congregation, and where a church--eg a Roman Catholic one--enjoins weekly churchgoing on every member (I think it is still a sin not to go every Sunday???) the congregation will just be a cross-section of the parish...or the more conscientious members thereof! And as has also been said, today's happy successful person could be tomorrow's devastated, lonely, close-to-breakdown one.
Re literature, I wonder if there are any other portrayals of church people that don't fit the stereotype/caricature? Well, there are--IIRC, the excellent novels of Gail Godwin which have for protagonist a woman Episcopal priest; and...well, none other come to mind immediately, but there must be some in mainstream (not specifically Christian) literature...
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Pondering.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I knew there was a reason why I have been putting off reading Barbara Pym.
NO!! Don't let this put you off, please! Barbara Pym's novels are brilliantly written, deeper than at first they may seem, very funny indeed--though with an underlying sadness, yes--and full of wonderful things. .... I'd suggest starting with Excellent Women.
Seconded.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Look at the kinds of people who hung out with Jesus! And like he said, "The healthy don't need a physician."
On a more basic level, people who are lonely, or "misfits," are likely to seek out community somewhere. I suspect, though, that there are many community commitments people make that would be portrayed in the same way by television - e.g., various special-interest clubs, like a birdwatching society, or cooking classes. The only commitments the culture really tolerates are one's own family, and those that (1) are essentially "masculine" in nature, and (2) further the individual's physical, financial, or social competitiveness. So you could join an athletic group without being typecast, for example.
In other words, if you seek out community (outside your own family, defined as your spouse and kids) for its own sake, something must be wrong with you.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Look at the kinds of people who hung out with Jesus! And like he said, "The healthy don't need a physician."
On a more basic level, people who are lonely, or "misfits," are likely to seek out community somewhere. I suspect, though, that there are many community commitments people make that would be portrayed in the same way by television - e.g., various special-interest clubs, like a birdwatching society, or cooking classes. The only commitments the culture really tolerates are one's own family, and those that (1) are essentially "masculine" in nature, and (2) further the individual's physical, financial, or social competitiveness. So you could join an athletic group without being typecast, for example.
In other words, if you seek out community (outside your own family, defined as your spouse and kids) for its own sake, something must be wrong with you.
So very true.
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Interesting OP.
I think there's some truth behind a lot of caricatures - which is what can make them funny.
If 'churchiness' is a compensation for inadequacy, does that make clergy the most inadequate people in church? Bishops must be total losers.
I don't think it matters much, not to Christ anyway. What does matter is honesty, and integrity. The problems come when churchiness is used as a protective shield or as a weapon against other people. What really matters is faith and I've found that sometimes the people judged inadequate by our society's standards have the deepest faith.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
You know, I was a very involved churchgoer for several years. I was then and am now very involved in my field of work (which takes in a rather larger range of human being than the church did).
Range issues aside, I can't see there's much difference between the church-people and the work-people. Either way, we're all just a bunch of simians racketing around trying to manage the best we can with whatever do-lally we've got.
The church people I've known are neither more nor less tickety-boo than the folks at work, or the ones volunteering at political campaigns, or the ones I encountered during my stint at teaching.
Frankly, it's amazing we all cope as well as we do, given how weird we all are, and what nobodies we manage to remain.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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