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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UKIP MEP embarrasses party (sort of)
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Shame we didn't get a deadpan statement from DFID saying that Bongo Bongo Land is not on the list of countries that are recipients of the British overseas aid budget.
There are better ways of dealing with silly people than accusing them of evil.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I was actually being rather more specific about those who hold the view that the simple redistribution of wealth overseas is the answer to the alleviation of poverty.
Calling that method of attempting to assist racist is ignorant. Many people who fund, or support funding, by sending aid money are unaware of the actual process. They are doing what they are able, what they think will help. For some it is laziness, to be sure. Drop a tenner into the box and your done. But many cannot do more than this and are not better informed by the agencies and NGOs.
Accusing people without thinking things through? Now who was accusing people of doing so just now?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
those who seem to think that using a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land" equates to racism.
I'm pretty sure I've never heard 'bongo bongo land' used in a respectful way.
If you have, do tell us where ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There's a huge difference between two people using such a phrase informally as a joke in a chat between friends (be honest, who has never done that?) and someone who uses them in public in an official capacity.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
Foreign Aid is a tool of the state, used as a way of giving us diplomatic influence. In other words, bribery and corruption. Sometimes it also benefits 'our' industries. If anyone thinks it's primarily about feeding starving children, they are kidding themselves. If that was the state's objective, they could save a lot of paperwork by just making giant donations to Oxfam and Save the Children. Funny thing is, they leave these charities to the mercy of private individuals. Fancy that!
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Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/
Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's a huge difference between two people using such a phrase informally as a joke in a chat between friends (be honest, who has never done that?) and someone who uses them in public in an official capacity.
Not sure there is, to be honest. (I think everyone has been assuming that "Bongo-Bongo Land" has nothing to do with the nepotistic Gabonese Bongo pere et fils.)
If, as I suspect, "bongo-bongo" is an imitation of the sound of African languages then its use has exactly the same racist content as if you were telling a story about some Chinese people, and rendered their speech "ching chong".
As racism goes, it's not the greatest sin, but it's still racist, and it's just as racist whether you use it in private conversation with your friends, or you broadcast it on national TV.
Certainly speech that you make in an official capacity is more heavily scrutinized, whereas mild racism might be socially acceptable amongst your friends, but that just means that you'll get away with it amongst your friends, not that it is less bad.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
Oops, didn't mean to post and run, real life got in my way!
I think everything I would want to say has already been said, most succinctly by Liopleurodon. The debate about foreign aid is clearly one that needs to be had, but I don't think the likes of Mr Bloom have anything useful to add to it - it's hard to believe that what was in his mind was whether foreign aid was the best thing for the receiving countries when he couldn't even be bothered to recognise them as real places.
When I wondered if he might be dealing with some personal issues, it was more this incident I had in mind. Added to the fact that he has said he sees himself as part of the 'maquis' against the 'Vichy' coalition government (although there might have been a bit of leading on in that interview, he started it!), I get a kind of "Europe = Germany = Nazi" feel from him. In that sense I feel kind of sorry for him, although that doesn't excuse insulting fellow MEPs (and ISTM that 'Nazi' is an order of magnitude worse as an insult than a more general term like 'fascist').
Messed up the attempt to quote, but I want to visit that drum shop! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
I am probably being a bit lawyer-y here (and for the record I do not agree with his opinions re aid). I just think, if one dislikes (rather virulent) nationalism, one should say so. What I dislike is using the word racist, which is of course a curse word, whereas if you called Mr Blooom a nationalist or xenophobe, he would say 'Yup..whats your point', which might lead to an actual discussion. I think its generally accepted that (at least a part) of the growth of the current anti-immigrant climate is people's resentment at being labelled racist every time they voice a right-wing opinion.
Incredible.
In your view the current anti-immigrant climate is the fault of minorities who call racists racist.
You seem terribly concerned with the imprecise use of the word "racist" but only mildly bothered by an elected official referring to large parts of the world (and former British colonies, by the way) as "Bongo Bongo Land."
The offense was meant for Africans and Asians, and that's where it's been felt. For you to tangentially be upset that the offended parties dared to say so, shows a startling lack of empathy.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound
Foreign Aid is a tool of the state, used as a way of giving us diplomatic influence. In other words, bribery and corruption. Sometimes it also benefits 'our' industries. If anyone thinks it's primarily about feeding starving children, they are kidding themselves. If that was the state's objective, they could save a lot of paperwork by just making giant donations to Oxfam and Save the Children. Funny thing is, they leave these charities to the mercy of private individuals. Fancy that!
I agree with you.
What I find rather remarkable is that many of the contributors to this thread are obsessed about the 'sin' of Godfrey Bloom using a phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land" and how - possibly - perhaps - by implication - it could hurt the feelings of a mass of humanity (of course, without actually consulting the members of that mass of humanity to find out what they really think about this), but I don't see any denunciations of the vile corruption and craven greed of elites in large parts of the developing world, who often benefit from governmental aid.
If we really care about the feelings of the downtrodden and oppressed overseas, then perhaps we should listen to THEIR concerns, instead of patronising them by assuming that they could really give a shit about the use of a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land". Certainly if I were living in the slums of Nairobi or Calcutta, I would be more concerned about issues of justice in my own society, and concerned that foreign governments do not encourage corruption among the elites under whom I am forced to live, than with a stupid phrase used by someone who was, after all, making quite a good point about the foolishness of foreign aid. And I would be particularly angry with those in the West, who delude themselves into thinking they are the ones who care about me (by obsessing about how I would feel about the use of loose phraseology), when in fact, as far as I am concerned, they're just a bunch of hypocrites, who are more concerned about upholding their own politically correct ideological agenda than about my well being (and in fact, who are exploiting my plight in order to score political points in their own country.)
I have visited various sub-Saharan African countries quite a number of times (Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Nigeria and Ghana), and I have spoken to Africans, none of whom have ever had reason to criticise the West and every reason to criticise their own elites. Perhaps the PC brigade could listen to them, or perhaps these people are just to be regarded as little children, whose views are not worth considering "because we are the ones who know best!"
The moment the patronising, perpetually indignant PC brigade show some genuine concern for the well being of the poor in Africa and denounce the real perpetrators of evil, is the moment I will take them seriously. Otherwise I will continue to regard their spineless utterances as the craven bullshit they certainly are.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
If we really care about the feelings of the downtrodden and oppressed overseas, then perhaps we should listen to THEIR concerns, instead of patronising them by assuming that they could really give a shit about the use of a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land".
As an African with family living in Africa and with personal knowledge of many individuals who benefit from foreign aid programs, I do give a sh*t, thank you very much.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
From the fool's own mouth:
"At a public speech in the West Midlands in early July I used a term which I subsequently gather under certain circumstances could be interpreted as pejorative to individuals and possibly cause offence.
Although quite clearly no such personal usage was intended, I understand from UKIP party chairman Steve Crowther and leader Nigel Farage that I must not use the terminology in the future, nor will I and sincerely regret any genuine offence which might have been caused or embarrassment to my colleagues." BBC - UKIP MEP Apologises
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
<snip> I don't see any denunciations of the vile corruption and craven greed of elites in large parts of the developing world, who often benefit from governmental aid. <snip>
Perhaps if Godfrey Bloom had done this himself, with specific examples, rather than a generalised accusation that the aid budget is wasted. The implication of his remarks is that (a) we shouldn't be spending money on overseas aid to "Bongo bong land", a phrase widely perceived as a dismissive and derogatory reference to sub Saharan Africa; (b) the money is misused by 'them' when it gets 'there', and (c) it was used to supply F18s to Pakistan.
He's fairly clearly wrong about (c). Since he hasn't specified either country or individuals in (a) and (b), it looks much more like generalised mud-slinging against overseas aid than any real attempt to critique it either on grounds that aid doesn't help but just leads to dependency, or criticisms of specific examples of corruption. ISTM that he hasn't done any actual work on it at all - he's just taking a politically convenient pot shot at an easy target.
Perhaps we need a thread devoted to the question whether/ how aid is used to fund lavish/ inappropriate expenditure by some in aid recipient countries, with examples, and what might be done about it. It's an important question. Let's get it away from this silly man with his sloppy thinking and sloppy (at best) use of language.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What I find rather remarkable is that many of the contributors to this thread are obsessed about the 'sin' of Godfrey Bloom using a phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land" and how - possibly - perhaps - by implication - it could hurt the feelings of a mass of humanity (of course, without actually consulting the members of that mass of humanity to find out what they really think about this), but I don't see any denunciations of the vile corruption and craven greed of elites in large parts of the developing world, who often benefit from governmental aid.
If we really care about the feelings of the downtrodden and oppressed overseas, then perhaps we should listen to THEIR concerns, instead of patronising them by assuming that they could really give a shit about the use of a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land". Certainly if I were living in the slums of Nairobi or Calcutta, I would be more concerned about issues of justice in my own society, and concerned that foreign governments do not encourage corruption among the elites under whom I am forced to live, than with a stupid phrase used by someone who was, after all, making quite a good point about the foolishness of foreign aid. And I would be particularly angry with those in the West, who delude themselves into thinking they are the ones who care about me (by obsessing about how I would feel about the use of loose phraseology), when in fact, as far as I am concerned, they're just a bunch of hypocrites, who are more concerned about upholding their own politically correct ideological agenda than about my well being (and in fact, who are exploiting my plight in order to score political points in their own country.)
I have visited various sub-Saharan African countries quite a number of times (Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Nigeria and Ghana), and I have spoken to Africans, none of whom have ever had reason to criticise the West and every reason to criticise their own elites. Perhaps the PC brigade could listen to them, or perhaps these people are just to be regarded as little children, whose views are not worth considering "because we are the ones who know best!"
Let's have a look at some of the fallacies here. First up there's the "but what about -?" one. It's possible to care about more than one thing. It's possible to be pissed off that someone used racist and dismissive language about a huge segment of the world's population, AND see that there are problems with the way in which aid is administered, and that there are greedy elites everywhere who grab stuff that's not intended for them. It's even possible to think that the whole aid system is rubbish and doesn't work, and STILL be pissed off at this guy's attitude. If someone says something offensive it's possible to confront that and at the same time be aware that he was criticising a system that is not perfect.
Then we have the "if I were a completely different person I would think -" yeah. You don't know what you would think if you were a different person with a completely different set of experiences. Nobody does. You might very well be primarily concerned with issues immediately affecting you. Foreign aid might or might not be a part of that. Again, it's possible to be concerned about immediate issues and still - if you happened to find out that some distant politician in a foreign land effectively doesn't even consider your country important enough to name in its own right - it's still possible to think that guy's a racist wanker. But this message of "if I were one of the people being dismissed as a BongoBongolian I'd be fine about being dismissed" - yeah, you don't know how you'd feel in that situation, because you're not there.
Next fallacy: ignoring the fact that it's possible to be pissed off that someone insulted people who aren't you. Some would say that's a matter of basic decency. I care when people suggest that millions of people don't matter because of the country they were born in. So it's not actually about whether the BongoBongolians hear his words and have their feelings hurt. It's that that is an unacceptable attitude to have to other members of the human species.
What in the world makes you think that the "PC Brigade" (I suppose I'm a member of said brigade in your book) DON'T listen to the concerns of people in these countries? Why are you assuming that we think we know better than them? Oh, right - because we think that something is offensive that you think you wouldn't care about if you were a completely different person who lived in a Nairobi slum. Not that you've been that person, but you're pretty sure you know what it'd be like.
And let's not kid ourselves that his main point is that the system as is doesn't help people. He's trying to say that the people it's trying to help are not important - certainly not as important as British people. Africans in particular have suffered a long history of being considered less important than white people, of being less valuable and more expendable. These particular comments are not the cause of this attitude, obviously - they're a symptom of it as an ongoing problem. They are a symptom of a disease that kills, because it's far too easy for many people to hear about an appeal regarding a drought or a civil war or some other problem and think some version of: "Ah, yet more troubles in Bongo Bongo Land" and switch over.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If we really care about the feelings of the downtrodden and oppressed overseas, then perhaps we should listen to THEIR concerns, instead of patronising them by assuming that they could really give a shit about the use of a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land".
Yeah, they're too hungry to care if we're rude and dismissive.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
It seems to me that there are several factors all intertwined in this unfortunate situation:
Firstly communication. Why, oh why do politicians, church leaders etc let loose in public dialogue people who cannot be trusted to express themselves appropriately? Before he died, my dad worked with Cardinal Hume in the public affairs office at Westminster Cathedral and nothing was ever said in the public arena that had not be carefully crafted and prayed about beforehand.
Secondly there is definitely a debate, preferably a dialogue to be had (and probably on an on-going basis)about Aid in general: how/ when/ where/ for how long/ if at all....I'm living and working in Africa and have spent considerable time in several countries and there's a whole host of things we could discuss.
But here's the thing: our underlying attitudes to other people will always need checking and challenging. Our reasons for being pro/ anti Aid need to be based on valid information and not on our blind spots. We need healthy dialogue sometimes to tease these out.
Finally, something I've noticed is that entrenched positions result in an inability to listen and express ourselves graciously. Having served one term of office in local government, I clearly remember debates which degenerated unwittingly into territory of insulting vocabulary.....what's inside us comes out under pressure especially when the cameras are rolling and it's often quite ugly.
And sadly, this man and many others in UKIP are no exception!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What I find rather remarkable is that many of the contributors to this thread are obsessed about the 'sin' of Godfrey Bloom using a phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land"...
Oh what bollocks. No-one thinks him going on about "Bongo-Bongo Land" is causing grievious pain to millions of poor Africans. They've mostly got better things to do. The fuss is abotu British politics. And the reason for the fuss is because that sort of language shows him up for what he is. And its also quite funny to see people like him slip up.
To put it plainly the man's a xenophobic cunt. We know he's a xenophobic cunt because he's a UKIP MEP, which is proof enough. His stupid bongo-bongo language just shows who he is. He's letting bits of his his inner nature leak out through the fake shiny surface.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
Ken, whilst I find that I pretty much agree with everything you say on these boards, I'm very disappointed that a decent chap like you uses parts of the female body as an insult.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Have the debate about Aid - I read some interesting views on the issue a few years ago when I was in Zambia about dynamics in receiving economies etc and think their is a space to discuss.
But that needs to be informed discussion and throw away comments using offensive slang for communities have no place in that or any other debate.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's pointless to quibble about the definition of the word racist while ignoring the fact that Bloom dismissed, contemptuously, whole groups of people in the same way that racists do.
I'm reminded of a spoof news item, (NTN O'clock news), where the reporter of a plane crash , or some such, made a graduated dismissal of the people groups killed according to their race .
The point being that our daily diet of World News is routinely dismissive of whole groups of people according to their race, or place on the Planet in which they happen to live .
No shouts of racism there.
Also you have Australia with it's tightly regulated immigration policy , or Norway happily co-existing with Europe while not being a member . Neither of which seem to be regarded as neo-fascist, racist low-life.
Trying to catch UKIP out on the racist thing, and attempting to brand their entire membership as bad eggs has already been tried . If the By-Elections were anything to go by it had the opposite effect.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trying to catch UKIP out on the racist thing, and attempting to brand their entire membership as bad eggs has already been tried . If the By-Elections were anything to go by it had the opposite effect.
Nobody has suggested that the entire membership of UKIP are 'bad eggs'. This thread is about one particular senior member and spokesman for that party. I would have thought UKIP themselves would be worried (and to be fair there are indications that they are) about allowing such unreconstructed drivel free range.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Perhaps the PC brigade could listen to them, or perhaps these people are just to be regarded as little children, whose views are not worth considering "because we are the ones who know best!"
The moment the patronising, perpetually indignant PC brigade show some genuine concern for the well being of the poor in Africa and denounce the real perpetrators of evil, is the moment I will take them seriously. Otherwise I will continue to regard their spineless utterances as the craven bullshit they certainly are.
Which of the posters on this thread do you imagine you are addressing with these words?
Or are you just shadow-boxing again?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trying to catch UKIP out on the racist thing, and attempting to brand their entire membership as bad eggs has already been tried . If the By-Elections were anything to go by it had the opposite effect.
That's a very fair point which illustrates a kind of racism that is very common within British society. It isn't the overt BNP brand, but something not too distant, which finds its main outlet in being rude, disparaging and derogatory about anyone who isn't Quite Like Us. As such it doesn't end at race and Bloom, stated in the European Assembly that "no self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age" while Geoffrey Clark, a UKIP council candidate, asserted that disabled children are merely a burden and should be aborted.
That should tell anyone where UKIP's heart is.
eta: Ricardus: if EtymologicalEvangelical means me, I really don't mind!
[ 08. August 2013, 21:01: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Incredible...
...You seem terribly concerned with the imprecise use of the word "racist" but only mildly bothered by an elected official referring to large parts of the world (and former British colonies, by the way) as "Bongo Bongo Land."
The offense was meant for Africans and Asians, and that's where it's been felt...
...a startling lack of empathy.
Seems to me that threads relating to the R-word always generate a lot of heat.
The underlying issue is one of what restrictions on our freedom of speech we allow. And in the long run that's vastly more important than politicians slagging off groups of people who'll never vote for them anyway in the hope of impressing people who might vote for them.
Freedom of speech is not absolute. We are not free to slander others, and if "racism" means the collective slander that dark-skinned people are racially inferior to fair-skinned people, then I imagine most people here are content with the idea that this is a speech-crime, a poisonous idea that we are not free to put forward in public.
As well as free speech, we prize the principal of equality under the law. So if it's not OK for Peter to slander Paul's race, it's equally wrong for Paul to slander Peter's race. Regardless of the history.
This doesn't mean that any statement that is disrespectful of others is similarly disallowed. You can't legislate that everyone must express esteem for every person and every nation in the world.
Using the same word for morally and legally objectionable slander and simple expression of disrespect or lack of esteem sounds like a totalitarian point of view that wants to make it a crime to disagree with one's own view as to who or what is worthy of respect or sympathy.
You haven't said why you feel offended. I guess you may think that the use of "Bongo bongo land" carries an underlying message that "black African governments shouldn't be taken seriously because black Africans are racially incapable of responsible civilised behaviour". I'd agree that such a statement would be racist (that is, an objectionable slander against a race of people). But he didn't actually say that. He'd probably claim he meant by it no more than "somewhere very foreign, very unBritish".
If racism is a crime, then just like people accused of any other crime, the accused is innocent until proven guilty.
Some of us want to live in a world where people are free to say anything except certain well-defined categories of thing that are by common consent prohibited, where all people are equal under the law, and all people are innocent until proven guilty. And consider these important things worth defending.
And if the choice is between "effectively tackling racism" or retaining those common-law freedoms - and no-one has yet made the case that that is indeed the choice - then I for one would rather see for my children a society which retains those freedoms.
Nothing incredible here....
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Bloom stated in the European Assembly that "no self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age"
If the small businessman was a dispassionate rational economic actor with a pool of equally-talented candidates of both sexes to choose from, Bloom is correct here - a purely rational actor would not hire the young woman, because she is more likely to get pregnant and require maternity leave than her male counterpart, and more likely to want to stop working to raise the child than her male counterpart.
It is, of course illegal to discriminate on such grounds, but it's really difficult to prove a discrimination case in a small business hiring decision.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Incredible...
...You seem terribly concerned with the imprecise use of the word "racist" but only mildly bothered by an elected official referring to large parts of the world (and former British colonies, by the way) as "Bongo Bongo Land."
The offense was meant for Africans and Asians, and that's where it's been felt...
...a startling lack of empathy.
Seems to me that threads relating to the R-word always generate a lot of heat.
The underlying issue is one of what restrictions on our freedom of speech we allow. And in the long run that's vastly more important than politicians slagging off groups of people who'll never vote for them anyway in the hope of impressing people who might vote for them.
Freedom of speech is not absolute. We are not free to slander others, and if "racism" means the collective slander that dark-skinned people are racially inferior to fair-skinned people, then I imagine most people here are content with the idea that this is a speech-crime, a poisonous idea that we are not free to put forward in public.
As well as free speech, we prize the principal of equality under the law. So if it's not OK for Peter to slander Paul's race, it's equally wrong for Paul to slander Peter's race. Regardless of the history.
This doesn't mean that any statement that is disrespectful of others is similarly disallowed. You can't legislate that everyone must express esteem for every person and every nation in the world.
Using the same word for morally and legally objectionable slander and simple expression of disrespect or lack of esteem sounds like a totalitarian point of view that wants to make it a crime to disagree with one's own view as to who or what is worthy of respect or sympathy.
You haven't said why you feel offended. I guess you may think that the use of "Bongo bongo land" carries an underlying message that "black African governments shouldn't be taken seriously because black Africans are racially incapable of responsible civilised behaviour". I'd agree that such a statement would be racist (that is, an objectionable slander against a race of people). But he didn't actually say that. He'd probably claim he meant by it no more than "somewhere very foreign, very unBritish".
If racism is a crime, then just like people accused of any other crime, the accused is innocent until proven guilty.
Some of us want to live in a world where people are free to say anything except certain well-defined categories of thing that are by common consent prohibited, where all people are equal under the law, and all people are innocent until proven guilty. And consider these important things worth defending.
And if the choice is between "effectively tackling racism" or retaining those common-law freedoms - and no-one has yet made the case that that is indeed the choice - then I for one would rather see for my children a society which retains those freedoms.
Nothing incredible here....
Best wishes,
Russ
All I've done is express my dissatisfaction with Bloom's comments. Never suggested that racism is a crime, or that he should face legal action.
I am offended because my ethnic origins are in a former British colony in Africa that received aid from the UK. Corruption in those countries has nothing to do with aid but rather with natural resource extraction and backroom deals between Western corporations like Shell and Rio Tinto, and a handful of politicians that they bribe to get their oil or gold.
Putting aside the fact of his racist language, Bloom is wrong. Many journalists have already pointed out the inaccuracy of his position.
So I think he is a racist fool. And I'm as free to say that as he is free to call me a "Bongo Bongo."
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Ken, whilst I find that I pretty much agree with everything you say on these boards, I'm very disappointed that a decent chap like you uses parts of the female body as an insult.
Oh, I don't know - he's been pretty even-handed: 'bollocks' in the same post, so male and female anatomical parts used equally to insult.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's pointless to quibble about the definition of the word racist while ignoring the fact that Bloom dismissed, contemptuously, whole groups of people in the same way that racists do.
I'm reminded of a spoof news item, (NTN O'clock news), where the reporter of a plane crash , or some such, made a graduated dismissal of the people groups killed according to their race .
Ah, yes, the 'Briton hurt' skit.
It seems appropriate (or possibly highly inappropriate) to also remind viewers of Spitting Image's Tory Atlas of the World from the same era; this presumably forms part of the welcome pack for new UKIP members...
[ 09. August 2013, 08:51: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Mr Bloom is still digging...
Antelopes
Yeah, I know, I have just come out as a Guradianista with an ethnic print skirt and hand knitted lentilburgers....
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Hmm. So "bongo" means "antelope".
I guess what he was saying was "Antelope Antelope Land"?
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Hmm. So "bongo" means "antelope".
I'd have gone with Gabon - it's much more believable.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Bloom stated in the European Assembly that "no self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age"
If the small businessman was a dispassionate rational economic actor with a pool of equally-talented candidates of both sexes to choose from, Bloom is correct here - a purely rational actor would not hire the young woman, because she is more likely to get pregnant and require maternity leave than her male counterpart, and more likely to want to stop working to raise the child than her male counterpart.
Yes, to be fair to Godfrey Bloom, IIRC the comments came during a debate on maternity rights, and he was trying to say that if pregnancy in a female employee creates too many obligations on an employer, then the employer has a strong incentive against hiring women, which is counterproductive from the POV of women's rights. He expressed himself in a phenomenally stupid way but I don't think it was an inherently invalid point.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That should tell anyone where UKIP's heart is.
There is no doubt that UKIP does contain some undesirables , whether this mr bloom is one of them I wouldn't like to say.
As with most Middle Englanders I don't normally wish to align myself towards extremist politics . Maybe talk the talk occasionally but not overly keen to walk the walk . However, I do get the feeling that if UKIP stay on message over their 'freeze on immigration' then they are going to gain ground.
I don't claim to know whether being in the EU is a good or a bad thing , or indeed how much worse off the UK would be if it exited . If exiting is the only way we regain control over immigration then I, for one, may be tempted to vote that way.
Not rational I know , because immigration doesn't affect me directly , it is though some a kind of underlying feeling that probably does derive from a base instinct that some might want to call the 'R' word .
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
He expressed himself in a phenomenally stupid way but I don't think it was an inherently invalid point.
Well, as he seems to have a track record of being phenomenally stupid, perhaps he would be better off out of public life. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I agree, I just felt the urge to be generous.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
A cynical way to get coverage for drudge work that wouldn't be a newsstory otherwise. UKIP are all about publicity. Also, the slur is ripped off from Alan Clark, of whom this person is presumably a fan.
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
all I've done is express my dissatisfaction with Bloom's comments.
No, you went beyond disagreement and expression of your feelings; you specifically accused him of racism. Using the word three times.
Now if there's nothing legally or morally wrong with being racist, if it's an ill-defined whinge word used whenever the person you're unhappy with happens to be a little bit whiter-skinned than you, then that's just part of the inevitable give-and-take when two people don't see eye to eye.
But just suppose for a moment that "racism" referred to a serious social evil, something vile and contemptible, a despicable prejudice beyond the pale of acceptable public discourse.
In that case, then whatever the niceties of the legal code in any particular state, it would be possible to falsely accuse someone of holding this despicable prejudice. Possible, and morally wrong, to slander them - blacken their reputation, besmirch their good name - by publically saying that they are this socially-unacceptable thing when you have no evidence that this is the case.
If your remarks were in a more public forum (and the legal status of the internet is something of a grey area) you might find yourself sued for damages, be required to compensate the victim of your slander for the promising political career you took from him when you destroyed his good name.
And the idea that the fact of your taking offence is sufficient to establish his guilt would be literally laughed out of court.
Good job you're only whingeing, then.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
You bumped this thread just to fantasise about how you'd like to ruin non-bigots?
[ 15. August 2013, 19:41: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
all I've done is express my dissatisfaction with Bloom's comments.
No, you went beyond disagreement and expression of your feelings; you specifically accused him of racism. Using the word three times.
Now if there's nothing legally or morally wrong with being racist, if it's an ill-defined whinge word used whenever the person you're unhappy with happens to be a little bit whiter-skinned than you, then that's just part of the inevitable give-and-take when two people don't see eye to eye.
But just suppose for a moment that "racism" referred to a serious social evil, something vile and contemptible, a despicable prejudice beyond the pale of acceptable public discourse.
In that case, then whatever the niceties of the legal code in any particular state, it would be possible to falsely accuse someone of holding this despicable prejudice. Possible, and morally wrong, to slander them - blacken their reputation, besmirch their good name - by publically saying that they are this socially-unacceptable thing when you have no evidence that this is the case.
If your remarks were in a more public forum (and the legal status of the internet is something of a grey area) you might find yourself sued for damages, be required to compensate the victim of your slander for the promising political career you took from him when you destroyed his good name.
And the idea that the fact of your taking offence is sufficient to establish his guilt would be literally laughed out of court.
Good job you're only whingeing, then.
Best wishes,
Russ
I'll be waiting for the old racist to take me to court then. He can explain why he thinks I'm from Bongo Bongo land to my face.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Meanwhile....
Where do they get these people from?
Largely the Conservative Party it seems...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'd like to hear Victoria Coren's* response to this guy and we may be lucky enough to get an Observer column giving it.
* interesting that she's not changed her website, but she's changed her name to Victoria Coren-Mitchell for Only Connect.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
It was also reported, by The Times, that UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom told the same event he and party leader leader Nigel Farage wanted an invitation to a "bunga bunga" party hosted by former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
I suppose they wanted to experience at first hand what Bunga-bunga-land was like. Though it strikes me that UKIP is most at home in such territory: sprawling suburbs of neat lawns and bungalows.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
You bumped this thread just to fantasise about how you'd like to ruin non-bigots?
No, I don't want to ruin anyone.
I do want to see the law be colourblind, to protect the bad guys from the excesses of the good guys as well as vice versa.
I do want to see words used honestly, and not describe a subjective feeling one minute and a serious moral crime the next minute.
Apologies if my slow response spoiled the flow - some days I don't get much time for this.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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