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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oprah, a handbag and racism claim
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
You're right, we're not in a court of law, which means that we don't have to pass judgement either way. It's the dynamic that says that we have to come to a conclusion about what happened that I find interesting. I'm quite happy to sit on the fence. If more information were to come to light, that might sway me on one direction or the other.

As a general rule, I don't particularly care for people rushing to condemn stuff on the basis of press reports, but nobody is going to get sacked on the basis of what you or I think. Therefore there's no harm in saying, 'This looks like racism' (OK, it might not be, but that's certainly what it looks like) - and there is a gain to be had IMHO in reaching that degree of clarity.

Edited to clarify to what and to whom I was replying, as at top of new page.

[ 12. August 2013, 12:02: Message edited by: QLib ]

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Liopleurodon

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# 4836

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The trouble is, with much of this kind of prejudice, you can't know for certain what's going on in a specific case. That's just the way that it is. So someone might feel unable to say "I didn't get this specific job because of XYZ" even though we know that studies have been done where CVs are presented to recruiters - identical except for gender or a "foreign" sounding name - and the recruiters have shown a strong selection bias. Or you don't know for certain that you're getting more attention from a security guard because of your race, or perhaps even if you are getting more attention, or just imagining it. I mean, we can get some objective statistics on general trends if we look at the right data, but we can't say for certain that this specific guard on this specific day was doing this for this reason. You don't know if the person you're talking to would take a man more seriously. You don't know if your care in the hospital would be better if you were younger, or thinner, or richer. Something in your brain says that something in this situation isn't right. Something says that you're being perceived as not a member of the desirable group, and treated accordingly.

But then of course you can't prove it. You know someone's going to say "Oh come on, prove that this person is racist. It's not as though there's a WHITES ONLY sign there" or "Just what, exactly, did he say that was specifically sexist? Come on - direct quotes only." And of course you can't prove it, because you can't go back and experience the exact same situation as a different person and find out if you would have been treated differently. You may even have got it wrong - sometimes people do. But this is the face of modern prejudice. This is exactly what it looks like. Racist people don't wear a big hat with RACIST on it. In fact, they themselves probably think they aren't racist.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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tclune
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# 7959

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Let's see: a megastar goes to a store to buy an obscenely priced piece of fluff, and the thing that is sick in our society is that a sales clerk fails to wait on her with the proper obsequiousness, presumably because the multi-billionaire is black. Yup. that seems about right...

--Tom Clune

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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tclune

Yes, Oprah might have been hoping to be recognised and fawned over a little - many celebrities would be the same. But even if that didn't happen, all the assistant had to do was politely let a prospective customer inspect a handbag. I don't see what would have been obsequious about that. That's her job.

Maybe they could have lower-grade inspection copies on display if they're worried about thefts. Or a buzzer system whereby customers have to be both let in and out of the shop by the assistant.

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Let's see: a megastar goes to a store to buy an obscenely priced piece of fluff, and the thing that is sick in our society is that a sales clerk fails to wait on her with the proper obsequiousness, presumably because the multi-billionaire is black. Yup. that seems about right...

--Tom Clune

Oprah is exceptionally generous and has donated millions to charities, besides promoting other charities on her shows leading them to post huge boosts in fundraising. Why can't she have a handbag or two while she's at it.

I don't see anyone calling society "sick" over this incident. She was asked in an interview if she experiences racism and she gave this as an example.

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ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The only way for them to emerge with any credit is to apologise: profusely and at length.

Not sure about that. This is Switzerland. The people who count probably don't care what US TV viewers think of them. Or even the US government much. They assume the customers will keep on coming. Think canonical Canadian lighthouse joke.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Liopleurodon

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# 4836

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Let's see: a megastar goes to a store to buy an obscenely priced piece of fluff, and the thing that is sick in our society is that a sales clerk fails to wait on her with the proper obsequiousness, presumably because the multi-billionaire is black. Yup. that seems about right...

--Tom Clune

To be honest, I'm deeply uncomfortable myself about something like a handbag costing that much. But in a society in which the super rich can and do buy these things, race shouldn't come into it. And when it does it's a symptom of a disease that affects society as a whole and which is extremely damaging. It's the same basic attitude which leads to black people being stopped by the police because they "couldn't possibly" have got that nice car by legitimate means. So even if most people are unable to identify with having a five figure sum for a handbag, I bet this is a situation that a great many people can identify with and feel anger about. They'll never go to this particular shop, but they know what it's like to be in a situation where someone takes one look at them, makes an instant and completely wrong judgement on the basis of their skin colour, and treats them differently as a result.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Let's see: a megastar goes to a store to buy an obscenely priced piece of fluff, and the thing that is sick in our society is that a sales clerk fails to wait on her with the proper obsequiousness, presumably because the multi-billionaire is black. Yup. that seems about right...

--Tom Clune



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The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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It's so easy for folk to default to clucking about expensive fashion accessories.

Let's get back to racism, shall we?

An excellent friend regaled us this past Sunday at the after mass coffee hour with an appalling customer service story, one that had no possible explanation, none whatsoever—to the white people who heard it.

There was no mention of race, color, nor discrimination.

But throughout the retelling, those sensitive to racism exchanged knowing glances, while the whites among the audience resorted to hypotheses of mental illness to account for the otherwise unaccountable behavior of the sales clerk in my friend's tale.

It was only when my friend casually, off-handedly, made mention of Oprah Winfrey that the penny really dropped for the whites.

[ 12. August 2013, 15:13: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Missed the time to edit and Liopleurodon said it better, and more calmly, than I would have.

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Laurelin
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# 17211

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I am not an Oprah-groupie.

But no sales assistant has any damn business telling a customer what they can or can't afford.

Period.

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Cara
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# 16966

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Indeed, no sales assistant should suggest or imply that a customer might not be able to afford something.

But I take the account of the store owner Tracy Goetz as seriously as Oprah's account, because when people are speaking in a language not native to them, there is huge scope for misunderstanding. The assistant is "mostly Italian-speaking" apparently and while obviously having some English, as an assistant in a top Zurich boutique, it may not be at all capable of nuance or subtlety. the whole thing sounds to me like a misunderstanding. In which case I feel very sorry for this poor assistant now maligned all over the place!

But this discussion is useful in reminding those of us who don't have to contend with white-on-black racism what it can feel like...

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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Of course, we don't know in this particular case. We'll never know for certain. The trouble is that whenever something which may be about racism hits the news, there are a whole bunch of people thinking "Yup. That's happened to me, or something very like it. I could have been in that shop" and the picture becomes more complicated. And then it's no longer just about this one case which may or may not be racist. It's about thousands of people who've experienced this kind of crap before. And then, when you get a load of white people saying "Oh this probably wasn't racist - just a misunderstanding. Who would even do that? I don't believe it" it sounds awfully like they're suggesting that all the people who've experienced this themselves are being hysterical and overreacting.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Indeed, no sales assistant should suggest or imply that a customer might not be able to afford something.

But I take the account of the store owner Tracy Goetz as seriously as Oprah's account, because when people are speaking in a language not native to them, there is huge scope for misunderstanding. The assistant is "mostly Italian-speaking" apparently and while obviously having some English, as an assistant in a top Zurich boutique, it may not be at all capable of nuance or subtlety. the whole thing sounds to me like a misunderstanding. In which case I feel very sorry for this poor assistant now maligned all over the place!

But this discussion is useful in reminding those of us who don't have to contend with white-on-black racism what it can feel like...

I don't trust Tracy Goetz' version because she is friends with Tina Turner (who lives in Switzerland) and having a racist employee would probably nip that relationship in the bud. She also knows that lots of wealthy black people travel through Switzerland - African oil billionaires, foreign dignitaries, entertainers - and is terrified that her shop will be shunned by those people.

Oprah travels around the world regularly, she is not some American tourist who thinks the rest of the world speaks English. She has shopped at plenty of places where English is not the main language. And I'm sure 99% of the time, she doesn't have any problems. There is no version of the story where a language barrier leads an Italian woman to say "that is too expensive" or "let me show you something less expensive" if she meant anything other than that. Unless she was trying to say "let me know you something more expensive" - hah.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I don't trust Tracy Goetz' version because she is friends with Tina Turner (who lives in Switzerland) and having a racist employee would probably nip that relationship in the bud.

I don't understand why you think this would completely undermine Goetz's arguments. It would be presumably more expedient for her to say 'I didn't know this shop assistant was racist when I hired her, I abhor racism (some of my best friends are black) and I've now fired her'. That would close the issue. By sticking by the shop assistant, the story continues to run.
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BWSmith
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quote:

The Trois Pommes sales assistant said over the weekend that she felt 'powerless' and in the grip of a 'cyclone' after Winfrey went on TV in America to make the claim.

"I wasn't sure what I should present to her when she came in on the afternoon of Saturday, July 20, so I showed her some bags from the Jennifer Aniston collection. I explained to her the bags came in different sizes and materials, like I always do.


"She looked at a frame behind me. Far above there was the 35,000 Swiss franc crocodile leather bag. I simply told her that it was like the one I held in my hand, only much more expensive, and that I could show her similar bags.

"It is absolutely not true that I declined to show her the bag on racist grounds. I even asked her if she wanted to look at the bag.

"She looked around the store again but didn't say anything else. Then she went with her companion to the lower floor. My colleague saw them to the door. They were not even in the store for five minutes."

She emphatically denied ever saying to Winfrey: 'You don't want to see this bag. It is too expensive. You cannot afford it.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2391313/Oprah-Winfrey-says-regrets-mentioning-handbag-racism-incident-Zurich.html

Sounds like she was just trying to warn Oprah that the less-expensive bag was a better deal for the money.

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Beautiful Dreamer
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# 10880

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quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:


Sounds like she was just trying to warn Oprah that the less-expensive bag was a better deal for the money.

...which is what a lot of people in the customer service industry would do. I've worked in retail and restaurants quite a bit and, while there is something to be said for 'upselling' items on a restaurant bill for a better tip, some people seriously do want the customer to get a good deal because good customer service can make or break many establishments. Treat customers well, they'll come back. Perhaps it's different in 'high-end' shops, but I don't see how.

I'm not saying that there wasn't racism behind it, because I don't know. I don't know how the woman spoke to Oprah, what tone she used, etc...but a language barrier very well could have caused hard feelings when none were needed.

I just think it's sad to be living in 2013 with racist ideas still out there. I'd have hoped we'd be beyond this crap by now. [Mad]

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More where that came from
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ExclamationMark
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How about a copy of the shop camera footage?
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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I don't trust Tracy Goetz' version because she is friends with Tina Turner (who lives in Switzerland) and having a racist employee would probably nip that relationship in the bud.

I don't understand why you think this would completely undermine Goetz's arguments. It would be presumably more expedient for her to say 'I didn't know this shop assistant was racist when I hired her, I abhor racism (some of my best friends are black) and I've now fired her'. That would close the issue. By sticking by the shop assistant, the story continues to run.
That only makes sense if Goetz intends to fire the assistant, which apparently she does not. Perhaps the woman is one of her best sellers.

You can't say that you're shocked to discover the assistant is racist and then keep her on as an employee. So to keep her, the only thing to do is say it's a misunderstanding.

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