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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doing theology in church ...
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Sighthound
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# 15185
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Posted
Do most people who attend church actually worry about theology?
I suspect much of what is said in sermons and similar addresses, and the implications of some of the stuff in the liturgy, flies over many people's heads. Or at least, that they don't go away and analyse it and say - oh, that was a bit Calvinist! (or whatever).
Of course, I freely grant that some people do. The ones who take this stuff very seriously and read theology, as well as partaking in Bible study. But I suspect such persons are a minority of the minority who attend church.
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Chamois
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# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Sighthound:
quote:
I suspect much of what is said in sermons and similar addresses, and the implications of some of the stuff in the liturgy, flies over many people's heads.
That's true in my own case. In spite of attending church for over 50 years I still find things in the liturgy, and in the Bible readings, that I've never noticed. A couple of weeks ago I noticed a link between the Eucharist and Revelation which I'd never seen before - although it had been there all the time.
It's interesting spotting things for yourself, and that's certainly the best way to learn, but I would find it very helpful if occasionally someone took the trouble to EXPLAIN a few things about God, or the liturgy, or Biblical interpretation. Otherwise it's bound to go over people's heads, isn't it? If nobody tells them, how will they ever hear about it?
I was one of the last generation who went to old-fashioned Sunday school classes as a child, so at least I know the definition of a sacrament and a few other useful concepts. But some sort of adult-level update would be extremely welcome. The younger generations don't even have that basic knowledge to start from.
I rarely learn anything from the sermon. I seem to have been subjected to the same small selection of sermons for at least the last 30 years.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
That's one of the things I wanted to include in the Sundays@6 strand for a very long time - a described Eucharist explaining what is happening and why. Particularly near a confirmation service.
Along those lines I've seen an annotated Eucharistic prayer with the Bible references written in the weekly pew sheet for people to read and take home.
The other thing I always wanted to do with the Sundays@6 was to give the teenagers who are involved in the church to produce their own quarterly service with support and some of the material from Roots, so they got to look at how services are put together, what goes into it and why. But I'm not evangelical enough and don't follow the YEC line so I'm not part of the youth work.
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Talking from a C/E standpoint, but i guess this could transfer over to other denominations/ groupings
At parish (or church) level, it would need to be a fairly large church that would lay on a group for the % of lay people who want to study theology.
+
Factor in Vicars having escaped from theological college and out there Doing The Real Thing. Heavens, they've not long escaped from it! We can't blame 'em for not wanting to go back to it again.
At deanery level there realy is scope for some lively and practically obtainable theological action.
Only thing is, the Area Dean is also a parish priest. So they've got their own show to keep on the road, as well as sorting their deaneries out. (Think parochial re organisations/ parish share/ women bishops/ whose church is falling down this year/ however many .5 clergy posts to be lost before next April...et flippin' c)
In the dear ole C/E, it's really for the Diocesan staff to grasp this nettle and provide Something for folk who want to go a bit further theologically, but don't necessarily feel led into leadership and down the whole Collar Route.
Some "sectors" of Christendom do provide theological trainng for ordinary folk...but it's pricey. I mean, it really Is pricey.
So:
Can ordinary people study theology in the UK?
It seems like we can if we live in Chelmsford!
[ 18. August 2013, 18:57: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
At parish (or church) level, it would need to be a fairly large church that would lay on a group for the % of lay people who want to study theology.
I agree, but in areas where the churches have good relationships with each other this could be done ecumenically. Some of us here have known ecumenical Lent courses to work well; why not have short ecumenical courses at other times of the year?
Also, your assumption that these courses have to be led by the clergy is itself an indictment of the current system. The clergy are already very busy, and they're likely to be unenthusiastic if they're given this job as well. Why doesn't the CofE make use of readers in leading the groups? The Methodists could use local preachers. All churches could try to recognise and encourage individuals who would benefit from formal theological education for themselves, and then guide others in more informal settings.
[ 18. August 2013, 19:07: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Chamois
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# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Curiosity killed.....
quote:
That's one of the things I wanted to include in the Sundays@6 strand for a very long time - a described Eucharist explaining what is happening and why. Particularly near a confirmation service.
This sounds great. We had something similar in our confirmation classes back in the 1970s.
quote:
But I'm not evangelical enough and don't follow the YEC line so I'm not part of the youth work.
I'm sorry to hear this but not surprised. I think this sort of attitude (very common on the part of church hierarchies) is the source of much of the problem. They can't see that their congregation needs anything other than frequent re-stating of the basic party line.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
The clergy are already very busy, and they're likely to be unenthusiastic if they're given this job as well. Why doesn't the CofE make use of readers in leading the groups?
Same attitude again - this isn't important so let's palm it off on our readers (as if they're not busy people as well!). We've got 3 readers in my church but none of them is an enthusiast for theology, any more than the vicar.
What's needed here is someone who WANTS to lead a group doing this. Like Curiosity killed. Oh no, silly me, not evangelical enough. The laity only need evangelising, don't they, not feeding for spiritual growth? You only need to know about God if you're going to be in a leadership position. And you can only be in a leadership position if you tow the party line - which includes believing that the ordinary person in the pew doesn't need to know about God.
no wonder I've been hearing the same sermon for 30 years.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
The clergy are already very busy, and they're likely to be unenthusiastic if they're given this job as well. Why doesn't the CofE make use of readers in leading the groups?
Same attitude again - this isn't important so let's palm it off on our readers (as if they're not busy people as well!). We've got 3 readers in my church but none of them is an enthusiast for theology, any more than the vicar.
What's needed here is someone who WANTS to lead a group doing this. Like Curiosity killed. Oh no, silly me, not evangelical enough. The laity only need evangelising, don't they, not feeding for spiritual growth? You only need to know about God if you're going to be in a leadership position. And you can only be in a leadership position if you tow the party line - which includes believing that the ordinary person in the pew doesn't need to know about God.
no wonder I've been hearing the same sermon for 30 years.
This problem seems to be faced by a number of people who use these message boards: the problem of attending an evangelical church but not being an evangelical. I wonder if it's a growing phenomenon? I've never really come across it in real life. The simple answer is to find a more tolerant church, but of course nothing is simple.
Coming from the Methodist tradition I'm not used to the idea that anything important in the church has to be led by the minister, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I do agree that theological education should be led by someone who's enthusiastic about it. It's sad that an evangelical church should seek to dismiss the importance of education: evangelicalism was once a promoter of education. Maybe it's the influence of revivalism that created the gap.
Ultimately, Christians in our secularised society surely need to be better informed about their faith, not less. How can Christians evangelise if they don't know how to talk about their faith intelligently, and can't respond to the objections put forward by a very influential group of atheists? But perhaps the feeling in some churches is that there's really no point in engaging theologically with what's happening in the outside world. That's a shame.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ultimately, Christians in our secularised society surely need to be better informed about their faith, not less. How can Christians evangelise if they don't know how to talk about their faith intelligently, and can't respond to the objections put forward by a very influential group of atheists? But perhaps the feeling in some churches is that there's really no point in engaging theologically with what's happening in the outside world. That's a shame.
As well as the influential atheists I think plenty of non-famous people who are atheists have pondered the issues of life, death, evil, suffering and so on, and decided Christianity doesn't have any good answers. If we Christians can't give a reasoned defence of our faith when people raise these issues, then I think we doing God a disservice.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That's one of the things I wanted to include in the Sundays@6 strand for a very long time - a described Eucharist explaining what is happening and why. Particularly near a confirmation service.
This sounds like a great idea to me, along with those other things you mentioned. Sorry your church doesn't see fit to involve you in the youth work there... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
What's the solution? I can only think that it's up to leaders and seasoned Christians in each church to set a good example, unashamedly engaging with God and the Bible on an ongoing basis.
With modern technology as it is, why do we spend so much of our time gathered together in our congregations on sermons which could be delivered online, on CD, or in printed form? We could then use the time in our gathered community actually taking advantage of the fact that we're gathered together; i.e. discussing, praying, encouraging, challenging one another. Maybe that would help more people see theology as something relevant to their lives and thus worth spending time on...
Churches are conservative places, and traditional churches with ageing congregations are especially so when it comes to church practice. People attend these churches partly because they value these traditions, not because they long to deconstruct them. IMO focusing on traditional mainstream church settings for the innovations you've mentioned here is unlikely to be fruitful.
In terms of 'online church', that's already been tried, hasn't it? We don't hear so much about it these days. Maybe it was a bit before it's time; it's today's youth, growing up in front of interactive screens, that might really take to that kind of thing.
I don't know to what extent Fresh Expressions has engaged with social media. I haven't been tracking FE, but I get the feeling that it needs to enter a new phase soon, in order to maintain momentum and to generate real interest. Maybe it could begin to think about Christian education. We've had 'godly play' - how about 'godly learning', or learning as worship?
'Godly learning' sounds wonderful!
Speaking as a Gen Y/Millenial and having grown up in front of a computer screen, online church sounds awful to me - but then I want my church to not be like the stuff I see every day.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
This problem seems to be faced by a number of people who use these message boards: the problem of attending an evangelical church but not being an evangelical. I wonder if it's a growing phenomenon? I've never really come across it in real life. The simple answer is to find a more tolerant church, but of course nothing is simple.
Coming from the Methodist tradition I'm not used to the idea that anything important in the church has to be led by the minister, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I do agree that theological education should be led by someone who's enthusiastic about it. It's sad that an evangelical church should seek to dismiss the importance of education: evangelicalism was once a promoter of education. Maybe it's the influence of revivalism that created the gap.
Ultimately, Christians in our secularised society surely need to be better informed about their faith, not less. How can Christians evangelise if they don't know how to talk about their faith intelligently, and can't respond to the objections put forward by a very influential group of atheists? But perhaps the feeling in some churches is that there's really no point in engaging theologically with what's happening in the outside world. That's a shame.
My church isn't "evangelical" in a doctrinal sense, it's formerly high church Anglican now moving to MOTR as the more elderly members of the church die off. One of the problems we have about educating the congregation is a class issue, so this post is overlapping with another current thread on this board. This is a working class area (an enormous former London County Council housing estate). Our parish and Diocesan clergy are (like nearly all Anglican clergy) from a middle class professional background. As I interpret the situation, the clergy just don't see any reason to educate the oiks- they "won't be interested". Not an attitude confined to our parish - see previous posts in this thread - but exacerbated by the local situation here in my parish.
As you say, the laity who interact at work and elsewhere with non-Christians and we NEED the knowledge. The local Muslims are very well informed about their faith. Why can't we be? What's the big problem here? Are the clergy gnostics? I thought Christ came for everyone but, hey, what do I as a mere layperson know about anything important?
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Chamois
I see what you're saying. However, if the clergy are uninterested and there's no tradition of lay-led groups in your church then you'll have to be a bit of a pioneer. If your church has good ecumenical relations with the community you could find out if other local Christians in the area would be interested in creating something jointly; there's strength in unity. Maybe you and one or two interested parties from other churches could start off by engaging in a programme of coordinated and appropriate reading, and/or by doing a short course with an approved theological college. You surely don't need a BA in Theology to help guide people from local congregations to think more theologically.
Considering that ecumenicalism and 'equipping the laity' are supposed to be fashionable goals for the church, I don't know how your church clergy could reasonably disapprove!
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